212 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Gunderic wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Masako52 wrote...
How do you have a dark skinned Caucasian? Caucasians are by definition light-skinned, unless you mean she's tanned. Which she's not. She's ethnically dark.

No, caucasian is a phenotypic grouping that goes beyond just skin color (has to do with the skull and facial structure amongst other things). Some caucasians, in the Middle East, North Africa and Southern Europe are naturally dark skinned, but are still caucasians.

Isabela is certainly not "black", if you are referring to this classification.

I think she also had reddish hair in Origins, if I remember right.

That was lighting. It was already proven when someone pulled her face morpth in the toolset. She is dark skin with brown hair. She was never white, nor will she ever be white because of where she is from.

[filetemo]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

As a side note, I don't know that the people (IRL and in-game) who seem to be "well-adjusted individuals" are really all that well-adjusted. That's a matter of perspective.

for me it's kelly chambers from ME2 without the "easyness"
you know what? keep the easyness. It's funny

Anyways, there's a reason Kelly is a non companion, so she can be more down to earth. Unstoppable warriors and mages fighting for big causes and alien marines have to have screwed up issues, their lives are not normal. If I'm dating a drell assassin with a terminal disease I don't expect him to be:

hi honey
hi baby
nice weather huh?
yup
wanna go to the cinema today after we defeat the collectors?
hum i don't know, mom called, she wants us to go have lunch with her
your mom is always controlling our life
thane you know she feels alone
she doesnt like me
dont get started with that
ok, ok, let's get dressed up
i love you
me too
i love you more
no, me
no, me
kiss



romances will have to be outrageous bcause the characters are special, what could be really improved is that they dont even have to be so ****y about their personal issues and traumatized by personal issues, but again DA2 characters were mre flat than their dao counterparts

[BroBear Berbil]

esper wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

filetemo wrote...

OnionXI wrote...
 The two characters I would have wanted to explore that part of the game with weren't options, probably because they were both pretty well-adjusted humans.

Here's the deal: When asked about "why can't we have a well.adjusted individual as a LI in DA, Dave Gaider answered: because you would find it boring"

this happened prior to the release of DA2. This means romances in DA2 will always have a bizarre component

As a side note, I don't know that the people (IRL and in-game) who seem to be "well-adjusted individuals" are really all that well-adjusted. That's a matter of perspective.

Also our protagonist can't really be called well adjusted with all the stuff they need to deal with, so it would actually be unfair to the well adjusted Li's to deal with the player character.

Actually, Hawke seems to get over the tragic bits of the story quite well since the game skips over the parts where they would conceivably deal with those events emotionally and Hawke doesn't really dwell on those things much in the following parts of the game.

[Gunderic]

Mr.House wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Masako52 wrote...
How do you have a dark skinned Caucasian? Caucasians are by definition light-skinned, unless you mean she's tanned. Which she's not. She's ethnically dark.

No, caucasian is a phenotypic grouping that goes beyond just skin color (has to do with the skull and facial structure amongst other things). Some caucasians, in the Middle East, North Africa and Southern Europe are naturally dark skinned, but are still caucasians.

Isabela is certainly not "black", if you are referring to this classification.

I think she also had reddish hair in Origins, if I remember right.

That was lighting. It was already proven when someone pulled her face morpth in the toolset. She is dark skin with brown hair. She was never white, nor will she ever be white because of where she is from.

I don't think I've seen many black people with brown hair either.

She is white ( racially ), with a dark complexion. Some ethnicities are Caucasian and dark-skinned.

[Mr.House]

Gunderic wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Masako52 wrote...
How do you have a dark skinned Caucasian? Caucasians are by definition light-skinned, unless you mean she's tanned. Which she's not. She's ethnically dark.

No, caucasian is a phenotypic grouping that goes beyond just skin color (has to do with the skull and facial structure amongst other things). Some caucasians, in the Middle East, North Africa and Southern Europe are naturally dark skinned, but are still caucasians.

Isabela is certainly not "black", if you are referring to this classification.

I think she also had reddish hair in Origins, if I remember right.

That was lighting. It was already proven when someone pulled her face morpth in the toolset. She is dark skin with brown hair. She was never white, nor will she ever be white because of where she is from.

I don't think I've seen many black people with brown hair either.

She is white ( racially ), with a dark complexion. Some ethnicities are Caucasian and dark-skinned.

She is a Rivaini in fact.

[whykikyouwhy]

Gunderic wrote...

I don't think I've seen many black people with brown hair either.

She is white ( racially ), with a dark complexion. Some ethnicities are Caucasian and dark-skinned.

Quick question - in the DA-verse, is Rivain considered a country/realm composed of Caucasian people? not what Rivain was based on...is it, the place itself (and thus, its people), considered ethnically Caucasian? Are there Rivaini folks running around Thedas checking the box for "Caucasian" on their EEO forms when applying to the guard?

EDIT: Added the appropriate emoticon.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 29 août 2011 - 10:55 .

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Shes Rivaini.

Most are dark skinned i think thought i'm not sure we would have to actually visit Rivani to see for ourselves.

Duncan is also RIvaini and he had a darker complexion as well so i'm inclined to believe most of the people from their are.

Ah, he is not Rivaini. He was born in Highever making him Ferelden i suppose. Althought his mother was from Rivaini so take that as whatever.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 29 août 2011 - 10:43 .

[elearon1]

  >>she is also a liar, a thief and a murderer. <<

You mean, unlike the PC, for whom lying, thieving and murdering are almost bread and butter in any crpg? 

[Gunderic]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

I don't think I've seen many black people with brown hair either.

She is white ( racially ), with a dark complexion. Some ethnicities are Caucasian and dark-skinned.

Quick question - in the DA-verse, is Rivain considered a country/realm comprised of Caucasian people? not what Rivain was based on...is it, the place itself (and thus, its people), considered ethnically Caucasian? Are there Rivaini folks running around Thedas checking the box for "Caucasian" on their EEO forms when applying to the guard?

EDIT: Added the appropriate emoticon.

I’ve got to question the merit behind solving the underrepresentation issue of the Rivaini population in our media.

... A Rivaini history month, maybe?

Modifié par Gunderic, 29 août 2011 - 10:47 .

[esper]

OnionXI wrote...

esper wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

filetemo wrote...

OnionXI wrote...
 The two characters I would have wanted to explore that part of the game with weren't options, probably because they were both pretty well-adjusted humans.

Here's the deal: When asked about "why can't we have a well.adjusted individual as a LI in DA, Dave Gaider answered: because you would find it boring"

this happened prior to the release of DA2. This means romances in DA2 will always have a bizarre component

As a side note, I don't know that the people (IRL and in-game) who seem to be "well-adjusted individuals" are really all that well-adjusted. That's a matter of perspective.

Also our protagonist can't really be called well adjusted with all the stuff they need to deal with, so it would actually be unfair to the well adjusted Li's to deal with the player character.

Actually, Hawke seems to get over the tragic bits of the story quite well since the game skips over the parts where they would conceivably deal with those events emotionally and Hawke doesn't really dwell on those things much in the following parts of the game.

No Hawke doesn't. In fact at least our Li reacts this time. With the warden it was like - I am a tragic figure from your past. One line answer - problem solved.

[elearon1]

OnionXI wrote...

Actually, Hawke seems to get over the tragic bits of the story quite well since the game skips over the parts where they would conceivably deal with those events emotionally and Hawke doesn't really dwell on those things much in the following parts of the game.

Well, she does get to talk about some of the deaths throughout the game, and even has a couple of those, "it's all my fault" moments - so I'd say she deals with it about as much as a computer character in a non Final Fantasy game can be expected to.  The rest of how Hawke feels is left up to you, as the player, to rp in your own way.  (one of those deaths was the final straw that turned my Hawke's opinion around in the Chantry vs Mage debate.)

[Follow Me on Twitter]

elearon1 wrote...

OnionXI wrote...

Actually, Hawke seems to get over the tragic bits of the story quite well since the game skips over the parts where they would conceivably deal with those events emotionally and Hawke doesn't really dwell on those things much in the following parts of the game.

Well, she does get to talk about some of the deaths throughout the game, and even has a couple of those, "it's all my fault" moments - so I'd say she deals with it about as much as a computer character in a non Final Fantasy game can be expected to.  The rest of how Hawke feels is left up to you, as the player, to rp in your own way.  (one of those deaths was the final straw that turned my Hawke's opinion around in the Chantry vs Mage debate.)

I know which event you're talking about and it forced my decision too. I liked that they threw that in there too made it so much easier to go ahead with the decision.

[whykikyouwhy]

Gunderic wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

I don't think I've seen many black people with brown hair either.

She is white ( racially ), with a dark complexion. Some ethnicities are Caucasian and dark-skinned.

Quick question - in the DA-verse, is Rivain considered a country/realm comprised of Caucasian people? not what Rivain was based on...is it, the place itself (and thus, its people), considered ethnically Caucasian? Are there Rivaini folks running around Thedas checking the box for "Caucasian" on their EEO forms when applying to the guard?

EDIT: Added the appropriate emoticon.

I’ve got to question the merit behind solving the underrepresentation issue of the Rivaini population in our media.

... A Rivaini history month, maybe?

My point (though perhaps poorly executed, or maybe briliantly so!!) was that I don't think we can qualify Rivain as a country of Caucasian people. I haven't done a 100-people survey, top 5 answers on the board type of poll or anything, but Rivaini folks may not consider themselves "white", or "Caucasian."

I think what the OP was trying to address (and @OP - if I butcher this, forgive me) was that Isabela is, by all appearances, a woman of color. Something that is rare in video games - certainly rare in a party member/main NPC. So it's refreshing to see something other than the standard pale skin of the hero.

Some of us like our characters in all shapes, sizes, and hues. And indulging (and reveling) in various proclivities.

[Gnaeus Trebonius]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Shes Rivaini.

Most are dark skinned i think thought i'm not sure we would have to actually visit Rivani to see for ourselves.

Duncan is also RIvaini and he had a darker complexion as well so i'm inclined to believe most of the people from their are.

Ah, he is not Rivaini. He was born in Highever making him Ferelden i suppose. Althought his mother was from Rivaini so take that as whatever.

I'd say they both have a distinct middle eastern phenotype which is hardly considered "black" in America, no? The Qunari/Kossith, or rather Sten, in DA:O were clearly negroid/congoid but that took a radical change in DA2. From just looking at the Thedas map I'm guessing "black" people would be native to the Donarks and beyond. 

[Gunderic]

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

Umm... wow. So bisexuals are either perverted like Zevran, or sexually repressed from living in a Chantry like Leliana? I hope you realize how awful you sound right there..

But saying that all men have no problem acting like Isabela is acceptable... 

I didn't say that, if you're referring to my original post. I said that often times IF a man is sexually open, he isn't called a sl*t and shamed for being a bad person like women are - and on the case of these forums, I always hear Isabela called a dirty sl*t and I think that's a double standard. Sure, occasionally men are reprimanded if they sleep around, but Isabela's lifestyle is just more often criticized when a woman does it, whereas when men do it they're awesome or called "ladies' man".

But you're misreading if you think I said anything about "all men".

You said "and men are rarely if ever shamed for enjoying sex" while talking about how Isabela isn't ashamed of 'having sex for fun, no strings attached'. So...

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Gnaeus Trebonius wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Shes Rivaini.

Most are dark skinned i think thought i'm not sure we would have to actually visit Rivani to see for ourselves.

Duncan is also RIvaini and he had a darker complexion as well so i'm inclined to believe most of the people from their are.

Ah, he is not Rivaini. He was born in Highever making him Ferelden i suppose. Althought his mother was from Rivaini so take that as whatever.

I'd say they both have a distinct middle eastern phenotype which is hardly considered "black" in America, no? The Qunari/Kossith, or rather Sten, in DA:O were clearly negroid/congoid but that took a radical change in DA2. From just looking at the Thedas map I'm guessing "black" people would be native to the Donarks and beyond. 

Rivanis view on religion would lead me to believe they have middle eastern influences.

[jlb524]

kingjezza wrote...
Pervy Elf and Cloistered Sister, perfect bi-sexual material if you ask me. Then again maybe it just feels natural after you get to know them both. In the end, having everybody with set sexualitys felt natural, as it would do.

Considering many straights count amongst the 'perv' or 'cloistered sister' population, I don't get it.

kingjezza wrote...
I know why they did it, pandering to a minority and it was probably easier than creating proper gay/bi characters, hell why put that work into creating characters when they can all just be bi.

...and I say that all romances are pandering.  More specifically, adding in more male romanceable NPCs is pandering to a minority as the majority of romances completed are with female LIs.  BW used to throw in one token male LI plus multiple women and fans complained and wanted more male LIs...they've included an equal amount of male and female LIs in their more recent games...I guess that's 'pandering' too.

kingjezza wrote...
And yes I do realise that, I can take or leave relationships, actually I would be happy if they removed them altogether, this forums obession with them is frankly weird at times but if we are going to have them I would rather they felt believable and natural in the world around me, you shouldn't be able to screw almost every NPC in the game.

Hyperbole.  You can't 'screw' every NPC in the game.  Every time I bring up the 'all romances are pandering' point the counter is 'well, I don't like any romance.'...it's funny.

If you have a problem with romances, don't do them.  But you feel the need to single out s/s romances and whine about them for some reason

[Follow Me on Twitter]

People argue against romances because they feel that the time they spend pandering to players about romance options takes away from time spent they could be writing in lore and working on gameplay.

[Yrkoon]

Masako52 wrote...

Though I wish more time had been spent on DA2 to make it a stronger game in several areas, I think it's pretty brilliant as it is - and in its approach to, shall we call, "social issues", the game is is pretty daring and interesting, and in a few ways almost landmark in the video game industry.
[list]
[*]Non-White primary female love interest - Isabela is dark-skinned, which may not seem like a big deal but it is (just look at the "Make Isabela white!" mod). I call her the primary female love interest just because she was the one featured in the trailers kissing Garrett Hawke. Non-White female love interests are rare in all forms of Western media, unless the man involved is also non-White. Hell, I call it variety when the love interest isn't blonde (and I say this as a blonde white girl). 

You're right.  This isn't a big deal at all.  Bioware games have done this before.     BG2's Viconia isn't white.    HotU's Nathyrra isn't white.

[jlb524]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

People argue against romances because they feel that the time they spend pandering to players about romance options takes away from time spent they could be writing in lore and working on gameplay.

...and pander to the people who play just for the gameplay.

I don't forsee romances going away anytime soon in BW games so you are going to have to deal with it. 

[esper]

Yrkoon wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Though I wish more time had been spent on DA2 to make it a stronger game in several areas, I think it's pretty brilliant as it is - and in its approach to, shall we call, "social issues", the game is is pretty daring and interesting, and in a few ways almost landmark in the video game industry.
[list]

[*]Non-White primary female love interest - Isabela is dark-skinned, which may not seem like a big deal but it is (just look at the "Make Isabela white!" mod). I call her the primary female love interest just because she was the one featured in the trailers kissing Garrett Hawke. Non-White female love interests are rare in all forms of Western media, unless the man involved is also non-White. Hell, I call it variety when the love interest isn't blonde (and I say this as a blonde white girl). 

You're right.  This isn't a big deal at all.  Bioware games have done this before.     BG2's Viconia isn't white.    HotU's Nathyrra isn't white.

[*]No but they wasn't human. It is the same weird approach as A desire demon not causing an uproar even if they aren't really wearing so much around their breast. It is for some strange reason all right as long as they are not HUMAN females.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Well they both are Drow. Not the same thing.

Pandering to people who play games for gameplay that's just stupid lol. They better cut it out or else.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 29 août 2011 - 11:26 .

[Yrkoon]

Aaron Gend isn't white... or drow.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 août 2011 - 11:29 .

[Gunderic]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

I don't think I've seen many black people with brown hair either.

She is white ( racially ), with a dark complexion. Some ethnicities are Caucasian and dark-skinned.

Quick question - in the DA-verse, is Rivain considered a country/realm comprised of Caucasian people? not what Rivain was based on...is it, the place itself (and thus, its people), considered ethnically Caucasian? Are there Rivaini folks running around Thedas checking the box for "Caucasian" on their EEO forms when applying to the guard?

EDIT: Added the appropriate emoticon.

I’ve got to question the merit behind solving the underrepresentation issue of the Rivaini population in our media.

... A Rivaini history month, maybe?

I think what the OP was trying to address (and @OP - if I butcher this, forgive me) was that Isabela is, by all appearances, a woman of color. Something that is rare in video games - certainly rare in a party member/main NPC. So it's refreshing to see something other than the standard pale skin of the hero.

Some of us like our characters in all shapes, sizes, and hues. And indulging (and reveling) in various proclivities.

So you can qualify her as... anything but not white? 

I mean, I'm fairly certain that dark-skinned 'white people' aren't so much of a novelty. If you want to 'celebrate' people with darker complexions being represented in media, fine. I'm a bit surprised that people are so quick to categorize her as anything but white though...

Anyway, I don't see any merit in rejoicing over something like... a character with darker complexion. It's on the bottom of the list of reasons of why I don't like Isabela ( and would gladly hand her over to the Qunari ).

[FaeQueenCory]

Cute, and I agree with you on most of you points, op.... except for one.

Masako52 wrote...
[*]Mages vs. Templars is also a social conflict as opposed to a "good vs evil" or "defeat the darkness!" usual fantasy plot. Though I also think the implementation could have been stronger, it's all extremely political and you don't see that often in fantasy games. Again, relatable to modern Western society if you don't take the conflict too literally - almost Liberal vs Conservative party mayhem without any real compromise between the two. And interestingly, when the people in power - the lame duck Viscount and Grand Cleric Elthina - try not to take sides, they end up being useless and not solving anything. The issue, of course, made personal with Hawke's siblings each favoring a side. And though neither side is inherently good or bad, we see both their justifications and the atrocities they both cause.

 

With the admonition that you too are a gaymer.... I'm rather surprised that you made the mageVtemplar comparison to liberalVconservative.... rather than the stronger homosexualVright-wing-fundamentalist-christian.
With all the talk about how mages are abominations...
Cursed by the Maker with the aberrent "curse" of magic...
Most free mages, due to their Maker-given gift, feel a sense of danger around every corner... And a sense of anomie that is only aleviated by being surrounded by other people like you who affirm that you are perfectly normal and natural (here's looking at Bethany... I found her struggle with her magehood such a strong parrallel with someone struggling with their "curse" of homosexuality very touching to say the least.... and her cries of "I wish I were just normal, life would be so much simpler and better"... I have thought that many times in my life...)
Should be killed or reformed (made tranquil) for the SIN of merely existing as the good Maker made them....

I think gays vs militant funamentalist christians to be a stronger real-world comparison to the mage vs templar social conflict.

Modifié par FaeQueenCory, 29 août 2011 - 11:30 .