212 réponses à ce sujet

[Gunderic]

FaeQueenCory wrote...

Cute, and I agree with you on most of you points, op.... except for one.

Masako52 wrote...
[*]Mages vs. Templars is also a social conflict as opposed to a "good vs evil" or "defeat the darkness!" usual fantasy plot. Though I also think the implementation could have been stronger, it's all extremely political and you don't see that often in fantasy games. Again, relatable to modern Western society if you don't take the conflict too literally - almost Liberal vs Conservative party mayhem without any real compromise between the two. And interestingly, when the people in power - the lame duck Viscount and Grand Cleric Elthina - try not to take sides, they end up being useless and not solving anything. The issue, of course, made personal with Hawke's siblings each favoring a side. And though neither side is inherently good or bad, we see both their justifications and the atrocities they both cause.

 

With the admonition that you too are a gaymer.... I'm rather surprised that you made the mageVtemplar comparison to liberalVconservative.... rather than the stronger homosexualVright-wing-fundamentalist-christian.
With all the talk about how mages are abominations...
Cursed by the Maker with the aberrent "curse" of magic...
Most free mages, due to their Maker-given gift, feel a sense of danger around every corner... And a sense of anomie that is only aleviated by being surrounded by other people like you who affirm that you are perfectly normal and natural (here's looking at Bethany... I found her struggle with her magehood such a strong parrallel with someone struggling with their "curse" of homosexuality very touching to say the least.... and her cries of "I wish I were just normal, life would be so much simpler and better"... I have thought that many times in my life...)
Should be killed or reformed (made tranquil) for the SIN of merely existing as the good Maker made them....

I think gays vs militant funamentalist christians to be a stronger real-world comparison to the mage vs templar social conflict.

[*]Bethany is... gay?

[whykikyouwhy]

Gunderic wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I think what the OP was trying to address (and @OP - if I butcher this, forgive me) was that Isabela is, by all appearances, a woman of color. Something that is rare in video games - certainly rare in a party member/main NPC. So it's refreshing to see something other than the standard pale skin of the hero.

Some of us like our characters in all shapes, sizes, and hues. And indulging (and reveling) in various proclivities.

So you can qualify her as... anything but not white? 

I mean, I'm fairly certain that dark-skinned 'white people' aren't so much of a novelty. If you want to 'celebrate' people with darker complexions being represented in media, fine. I'm a bit surprised that people are so quick to categorize her as anything but white though...

Anyway, I don't see any merit in rejoicing over something like... a character with darker complexion. It's on the bottom of the list of reasons of why I don't like Isabela ( and would gladly hand her over to the Qunari ).

Sure, "dark-skinned" white people exist. As do "light-skinned" non-white people. The celebration is of diversity. Different skin tones, different races potentially being represented. Not everyone is a carbon copy of the standard pale-skinned hero we have seen throughout the years.

I'm not declaring a Rivaini history month, as you so lovingly suggested a few posts ago. For people who are not the average looking white person (in hue, hair color, size and body type), it's refreshing to see someone who may be more like them in appearance. It helps a person with immersion to see a hero that mirrors him/her in some way, shape or form. While this isn't necessary (it's all about role-playing after all), it is, simply put, a welcome change and deviation from the "norm."

Because let's face it - the gamer audience runs the gamut of backgrounds, ages, and the like. Different options, LIs and NPCs that aren't paper-doll cut-outs of the same archetype, help broaden the horizons.

[Yrkoon]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Well they both are Drow. Not the same thing.

Wait, what?  Drow are a completely different race.  when a human has a romance with a drow, that's literally inter-racial.

And your premise is faulty anyway.  Isabela isn't black.  she's white, with a tan, like any pirate who's out in the sun day in/day out.

Pandering to people who play games for gameplay that's just stupid lol. They better cut it out or else.

I'm going to give you the benefit of  the doubt here and just assume that I misunderstand what you're really saying.  if you take away gameplay from a game, you no longer have a game.  You have a movie.    And while sure,  plots and story lines are the most important aspects of  an RPG, they do not (cannot) survive on their own in a Game, otherwise the game fails.  What differenciates  a good RPG from a good movie is the fact that in a good RPG, the player can make decisions that affect or even change the story.  And that's an aspect of Gameplay.

[Gunderic]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I think what the OP was trying to address (and @OP - if I butcher this, forgive me) was that Isabela is, by all appearances, a woman of color. Something that is rare in video games - certainly rare in a party member/main NPC. So it's refreshing to see something other than the standard pale skin of the hero.

Some of us like our characters in all shapes, sizes, and hues. And indulging (and reveling) in various proclivities.

So you can qualify her as... anything but not white? 

I mean, I'm fairly certain that dark-skinned 'white people' aren't so much of a novelty. If you want to 'celebrate' people with darker complexions being represented in media, fine. I'm a bit surprised that people are so quick to categorize her as anything but white though...

Anyway, I don't see any merit in rejoicing over something like... a character with darker complexion. It's on the bottom of the list of reasons of why I don't like Isabela ( and would gladly hand her over to the Qunari ).

Because let's face it - the gamer audience runs the gamut of backgrounds, ages, and the like. Different options, LIs and NPCs that aren't paper-doll cut-outs of the same archetype, help broaden the horizons.

B-BioWare game? 

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Yrkoon wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Well they both are Drow. Not the same thing.

Wait, what?  Drow are a completely different race.  when a human has a romance with a drow, that's literally inter-racial.

And your premise is faulty anyway.  Isabela isn't black.  she's white, with a tan, like any pirate who's out in the sun day in/day out.

Pandering to people who play games for gameplay that's just stupid lol. They better cut it out or else.

I'm going to give you the benefit of  the doubt here and just assume that I misunderstand what you're really saying.  if you take away gameplay from a game, you no longer have a game.  You have a movie.    And while sure,  plots and story lines are the most important aspects of  an RPG, they do not (cannot) survive on their own in a Game, otherwise the game fails.  What differenciates  a good RPG from a good movie is the fact that in a good RPG, the player can make decisions that affect or even change the story.  And that's an aspect of Gameplay.

The first one you are right i suppose it is interracial. The second one was sarcasm read what it was aimed at

[jlb524]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...
Pandering to people who play games for gameplay that's just stupid lol. They better cut it out or else.

They of course will add gameplay, but there are people who would rather have them spend more time on things like...romances over adding a few tweaks here and there to the gameplay.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

And seeing as most of the complaints from the last game were gameplay related issues with reused enviroments/broken plots/lore and ridiculous combat and companion equipment...you see where im going with this?

I'm not knocking romance alot of players here play just for that, but it should not be the selling point in my opinion it should just be the icing on the cake.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 29 août 2011 - 11:59 .

[FaeQueenCory]

Gunderic wrote...

Bethany is... gay?

*facepalm*
No........ But ask any gay person and they will tell you that her self loathing and desire to "just be normal like everyone else", culminating in her joy at being surrounded by people who are like her and affirm that she is normal, natural, and beloved of the Maker... should she be sent to the Circle... is ANALOGOUS to the feelings that gays have about living in a world where their mere existence is deemed to be a sin against God, and the sense of relief, acceptance, and joy they feel when they find the gay community...

hmm.... Homosexual's mere existence is deemed to be a sin against God...
just like how being a mage is said to be a sin against the Maker....

how....
analogous...

[Follow Me on Twitter]

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Imperial_Chantry 

Maybe a change of church is in order for Bethany.

[Dr. rotinaj]

FaeQueenCory wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Bethany is... gay?

*facepalm*
No........ But ask any gay person and they will tell you that her self loathing and desire to "just be normal like everyone else", culminating in her joy at being surrounded by people who are like her and affirm that she is normal, natural, and beloved of the Maker... should she be sent to the Circle... is ANALOGOUS to the feelings that gays have about living in a world where their mere existence is deemed to be a sin against God, and the sense of relief, acceptance, and joy they feel when they find the gay community...

hmm.... Homosexual's mere existence is deemed to be a sin against God...
just like how being a mage is said to be a sin against the Maker....

how....
analogous...

The comparison of mages to gays doesn't hold up because gays are no more dangerous than normal people. Mages are capable of terrible things; even a person who doesn't believe in the Chantry has to see that. Mages are demonized and ostracized because they can become abominations, not because they are different. Hating or fearing a mage is unfair but understandable, hating or fearing a homosexual is just ignorant.

Modifié par Dr. rotinaj, 30 août 2011 - 12:24 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Dr. rotinaj wrote...

FaeQueenCory wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Bethany is... gay?

*facepalm*
No........ But ask any gay person and they will tell you that her self loathing and desire to "just be normal like everyone else", culminating in her joy at being surrounded by people who are like her and affirm that she is normal, natural, and beloved of the Maker... should she be sent to the Circle... is ANALOGOUS to the feelings that gays have about living in a world where their mere existence is deemed to be a sin against God, and the sense of relief, acceptance, and joy they feel when they find the gay community...

hmm.... Homosexual's mere existence is deemed to be a sin against God...
just like how being a mage is said to be a sin against the Maker....

how....
analogous...

The comparison of mages to gays doesn't hold up because gays are no more dangerous than normal people. Mages are capable of terrible things; even a person who doesn't believe in the Chantry has to see that. Mages are demonized and ostracized because they can become abominations, not because they are different. Hating or fearing a mage is unfair but understandable, hating or fearing a homosexual is just ignorant.

I agree that hating/fearing homosexuality is ignorant, and gays certainly are not "dangerous", but I think a comparison based on the hysteria is valid. It's the whipping up of fear, the propoganda, where parallels can be drawn. You wind up with the majority of the city just believing the hype. There's spin that is negative towards mages purely on the fact that they are mages - they are dubbed maleficars, apostates, evil evil evil.

It's that mob mentality (almost) of distrust and even hatred towards mages that can be seen as similar to homophobic sentiment.

[Jamesnew2]

Intresting

[jlb524]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

And seeing as most of the complaints from the last game were gameplay related issues with reused enviroments/broken plots/lore and ridiculous combat and companion equipment...you see where im going with this?

I'm not knocking romance alot of players here play just for that, but it should not be the selling point in my opinion it should just be the icing on the cake.

That's kind of what it is now, considering they spend a hell of a lot more time on other things besides romances.

Individual forum goers might put more emphasis on romance, but I don't see why that should be your concern.  BW does not.

Dr. rotinaj wrote...
The comparison of mages to gays doesn't hold up because gays are no more dangerous than normal people. Mages are capable of terrible things; even a person who doesn't believe in the Chantry has to see that. Mages are demonized and ostracized because they can become abominations, not because they are different. Hating or fearing a mage is unfair but understandable, hating or fearing a homosexual is just ignorant.

Some claim gays are a danger to society, our young children, the future of humanity, etc.

Modifié par jlb524, 30 août 2011 - 01:31 .

[Masako52]

Gunderic wrote...

You said "and men are rarely if ever shamed for enjoying sex" while talking about how Isabela isn't ashamed of 'having sex for fun, no strings attached'. So...

Um, I think you're misunderstanding my sentence. Men rarely if ever are shamed for enjoying sex.... "Shamed" referring to people shaming them, not men don't feel bad about having lots of sex. In feminism thought there's a term called "sl*t shaming" (sorry Bioware mods for asteriking a bad word, but it's a mature usage I promise) - it's where women who have lots of sex are called sl*ts and humiliated for enjoying sex, or called dirty, nasty, tramp, etc. But MEN who enjoy having sex are called players, ladies's men, heroes, sexy. It comes from thousands of years of thought that women should remain faithful and only have one lover - their husband - but it's only natural if men "play the field".

A man is far less likely to be made to feel ashamed for having sex for fun, no strings attached because society generally doesn't care - they applaud him. If a woman likes to have sex for fun, no strings attached, she gets shamed and jeered at. That's why Isabela's character is significant. Sure, the other characters do harass her for having lots of sex, and that's the world, the society, that's fine. Even in Thedas where there's a lesser gap between genders (women can be warriors, seem to have the same amount of rights, etc.) we're still talking about a feudal society that is still likely to perpetuate sexism (based on women are supposed to have their husband's heir, and there's problems if the kid ends up not being his son, or whatever). But Isabela is strong and secure in the fact that she enjoys having sex. She is not ashamed of it. And that's significant.

Okay, I think you guys are getting too technical with Caucasian here - the point is she's not White. She's a woman of color. I don't think she's black (as in African-descent), considering her hair is pretty straight, but she could be anything. She reminds me of a gypsie, personally. Isabela's ethnic significance is that she's not the stereotypical White love interest, that we get in almost every video game and movie. ("White" again includes the extremely light-skinned women in Japanese video games, too, even if they're Asian, the women are rarely brown-skinned and it tends to perpetuate, or be a result of, the perception that White skin is sexier than colored skin)

[Masako52]

FaeQueenCory wrote...

Cute, and I agree with you on most of you points, op.... except for one.

Masako52 wrote...
[*]Mages vs. Templars is also a social conflict as opposed to a "good vs evil" or "defeat the darkness!" usual fantasy plot. Though I also think the implementation could have been stronger, it's all extremely political and you don't see that often in fantasy games. Again, relatable to modern Western society if you don't take the conflict too literally - almost Liberal vs Conservative party mayhem without any real compromise between the two. And interestingly, when the people in power - the lame duck Viscount and Grand Cleric Elthina - try not to take sides, they end up being useless and not solving anything. The issue, of course, made personal with Hawke's siblings each favoring a side. And though neither side is inherently good or bad, we see both their justifications and the atrocities they both cause.

 

With the admonition that you too are a gaymer.... I'm rather surprised that you made the mageVtemplar comparison to liberalVconservative.... rather than the stronger homosexualVright-wing-fundamentalist-christian.
With all the talk about how mages are abominations...
Cursed by the Maker with the aberrent "curse" of magic...
Most free mages, due to their Maker-given gift, feel a sense of danger around every corner... And a sense of anomie that is only aleviated by being surrounded by other people like you who affirm that you are perfectly normal and natural (here's looking at Bethany... I found her struggle with her magehood such a strong parrallel with someone struggling with their "curse" of homosexuality very touching to say the least.... and her cries of "I wish I were just normal, life would be so much simpler and better"... I have thought that many times in my life...)
Should be killed or reformed (made tranquil) for the SIN of merely existing as the good Maker made them....

I think gays vs militant funamentalist christians to be a stronger real-world comparison to the mage vs templar social conflict.

That's a GREAT point. As a gaymer, I admit it comes easy for me to interpret a lot of things as paralelling gay issues. In DAO, I also remember getting a distinct gay feeling for the Tower - that one moment in the Mage origin storyline, where the mage woman is praying at the altar for the Maker to take her curse away, and that she was born with a terrible sin. I didn't think about it as much in DA2 but it's still a great connection. Basically, you have people who are born "different" and seen as having a curse that sets them apart from "normal people." I can certainly relate to that feeling from when I was growing up.

[FieryDove]

Mr.House wrote...

That was lighting. It was already proven when someone pulled her face morpth in the toolset. She is dark skin with brown hair. She was never white, nor will she ever be white because of where she is from.

She was a lighter skintone than Zevran in DAO. DA2 she has a much darker skintone than Zev and hair from reddish brown/brown to black, Zev got much lighter skintone, hair and eye color as well.



Things change. (shrug)

New Zev still looks...

Yrkoon wrote...

 if you take away gameplay from a game, you no longer have a game.  You have a movie.    And while sure,  plots and story lines are the most important aspects of  an RPG, they do not (cannot) survive on their own in a Game, otherwise the game fails.  What differenciates  a good RPG from a good movie is the fact that in a good RPG, the player can make decisions that affect or even change the story.  And that's an aspect of Gameplay.

Well maybe games are becoming interactive movies. Expensive direction but it's what everyone wants. We are living the future now and should be thankful.

[BroBear Berbil]

FieryDove wrote...

Well maybe games are becoming interactive movies. Expensive direction but it's what everyone wants. We are living the future now and should be thankful.

Nice one. For a second there I thought you were serious.

Modifié par OnionXI, 30 août 2011 - 03:01 .

[Masako52]

FieryDove wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

That was lighting. It was already proven when someone pulled her face morpth in the toolset. She is dark skin with brown hair. She was never white, nor will she ever be white because of where she is from.

She was a lighter skintone than Zevran in DAO. DA2 she has a much darker skintone than Zev and hair from reddish brown/brown to black, Zev got much lighter skintone, hair and eye color as well.



Things change. (shrug)

It's the lighting, it really honestly is. If you look at Isabela from DAO in the toolset, you can tell she's dark-skinned and has dark brown hair. Here's a link to an old thread about this: http://social.biowar...ndex/5104724/1 You can see a picture of Izzie in the toolset.

[Monica21]

Yrkoon wrote...
And your premise is faulty anyway.  Isabela isn't black.  she's white, with a tan, like any pirate who's out in the sun day in/day out.

Minor point, but Isabela is from Rivain, just like Duncan. So while she's "white" she has naturally dark skin just like Duncan.

[FieryDove]

Masako52 wrote...

It's the lighting, it really honestly is. If you look at Isabela from DAO in the toolset, you can tell she's dark-skinned and has dark brown hair. Here's a link to an old thread about this: http://social.biowar...ndex/5104724/1 You can see a picture of Izzie in the toolset.

I've seen that before. I was just stating how it looked in game. By that reasoning "lighting" Zevran should look even paler than she does. He does not. Even if one tweaks the lighting it comes out as the same result in game.

[Masako52]

FieryDove wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

It's the lighting, it really honestly is. If you look at Isabela from DAO in the toolset, you can tell she's dark-skinned and has dark brown hair. Here's a link to an old thread about this: http://social.biowar...ndex/5104724/1 You can see a picture of Izzie in the toolset.

I've seen that before. I was just stating how it looked in game. By that reasoning "lighting" Zevran should look even paler than she does. He does not. Even if one tweaks the lighting it comes out as the same result in game.

It's not that I disagree - when I first played Origins I just assumed she was white. But she's not. Put her in the toolset and you'll see she's a woman of color, and no matter why she looks light in the tavern, it is just the lighting. For whatever reason she doesn't look dark-skinned, it's only the effect of the environment.

She's not white. If I were to give her an ethnicity from Earth, I would say something middle-eastern - Egyptian, maybe. Maybe even Indian (I have an Indian friend who looks just like her, sans the cleavage).

[Jaulen]

filetemo wrote...

OnionXI wrote...
 The two characters I would have wanted to explore that part of the game with weren't options, probably because they were both pretty well-adjusted humans.

Here's the deal: When asked about "why can't we have a well.adjusted individual as a LI in DA, Dave Gaider answered: because you would find it boring"

this happened prior to the release of DA2. This means romances in DA2 will always have a bizarre component

I like the fact that the LIs in Bioware games are bizzare in some way.

I may like the pixelated romances, and screwing with the minds of my pixelated romances while wandering about the country side decapitating anyone who crosses my path....

It lets me play a character in my head.....I have enough 'normal' romance in my RL....give me the bizzare and screwed up.....

[FaeQueenCory]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Dr. rotinaj wrote...

The comparison of mages to gays doesn't hold up because gays are no more dangerous than normal people. Mages are capable of terrible things; even a person who doesn't believe in the Chantry has to see that. Mages are demonized and ostracized because they can become abominations, not because they are different. Hating or fearing a mage is unfair but understandable, hating or fearing a homosexual is just ignorant.

I agree that hating/fearing homosexuality is ignorant, and gays certainly are not "dangerous", but I think a comparison based on the hysteria is valid. It's the whipping up of fear, the propoganda, where parallels can be drawn. You wind up with the majority of the city just believing the hype. There's spin that is negative towards mages purely on the fact that they are mages - they are dubbed maleficars, apostates, evil evil evil.

It's that mob mentality (almost) of distrust and even hatred towards mages that can be seen as similar to homophobic sentiment.

*bows*
Thank you, whykikyouwhy.

For you see, Dr. rotinaj, that is the case of analogies. They are not equivalencies. My comparisons that the mage issue in TheDAS is very similar to the issues that homosexuals face in the real world IS valid. As an analogy.

Furthermore, the opposition (who fill the roles of the Templars) in my analogy: the Conservative-Fundamentalist-Christians, would very vehemently argue with you that "homosexuals are harmless". Because to them we might as well be vortexes of sin that corrupts the very fabric of God's grace... So, your point about homosexuals aren't a dangers so there can't be a comparison to mages, is made invalid when you listen to the "Templars" and their cries about how allowing two men to marry will "destroy the very institution of marriage" and "be the downfall of western civilization."

No analogy is perfect, if it was... it wouldn't be an analogy. It would be an equivalency.
(mathematically that's 2.0001=/=2, but 2.0001~2)

[Gunderic]

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

You said "and men are rarely if ever shamed for enjoying sex" while talking about how Isabela isn't ashamed of 'having sex for fun, no strings attached'. So...

Um, I think you're misunderstanding my sentence. Men rarely if ever are shamed for enjoying sex.... "Shamed" referring to people shaming them, not men don't feel bad about having lots of sex. In feminism thought there's a term called "sl*t shaming" (sorry Bioware mods for asteriking a bad word, but it's a mature usage I promise) - it's where women who have lots of sex are called sl*ts and humiliated for enjoying sex, or called dirty, nasty, tramp, etc. But MEN who enjoy having sex are called players, ladies's men, heroes, sexy. It comes from thousands of years of thought that women should remain faithful and only have one lover - their husband - but it's only natural if men "play the field".

No, I don't think I did. You were explaining how you applaud BioWare for creating a character like Isabela that sleeps around, and isn't ashamed to show it, correct? Here's the quote I want to highlight:

Criticism of her character is often essentially ****-shaming, but the truth is Isabela's free and independent attitude toward sex is a characteristic associated with masculinity (and men are rarely if ever shamed for enjoying sex)

'Free and independent attitude toward sex' ( sleeping around ) is a masculine trait, correct? So men have no problem sleeping around. Doesn't that contradict 'not saying that they are not ashamed'?

A man is far less likely to be made to feel ashamed for having sex for fun, no strings attached because society generally doesn't care - they applaud him.

Well, you said so here too, so I think that wraps this one up, right? And, I don't quite think that what you're saying here is always true in men's case, about being applauded.

Modifié par Gunderic, 30 août 2011 - 11:29 .

[Gunderic]

Masako52 wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

It's the lighting, it really honestly is. If you look at Isabela from DAO in the toolset, you can tell she's dark-skinned and has dark brown hair. Here's a link to an old thread about this: http://social.biowar...ndex/5104724/1 You can see a picture of Izzie in the toolset.

I've seen that before. I was just stating how it looked in game. By that reasoning "lighting" Zevran should look even paler than she does. He does not. Even if one tweaks the lighting it comes out as the same result in game.

It's not that I disagree - when I first played Origins I just assumed she was white. But she's not. Put her in the toolset and you'll see she's a woman of color, and no matter why she looks light in the tavern, it is just the lighting. For whatever reason she doesn't look dark-skinned, it's only the effect of the environment.

She's not white. If I were to give her an ethnicity from Earth, I would say something middle-eastern - Egyptian, maybe. Maybe even Indian (I have an Indian friend who looks just like her, sans the cleavage).

Egyptians are white. I'm pretty sure the Romani are too.