212 réponses à ce sujet

[K_Tabris]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

OP is overthinking it.

Not at all. 


@OP this is a well thought, and layed out thread.  You state several of the successes of this game, and I agree 100 % The branching out in the use of character archetypes, social and political issues in DA2, make the gaming experience very rich, for those who care for that sort of thing.

[Masako52]

Gunderic wrote...

Well, you said so here too, so I think that wraps this one up, right? And, I don't quite think that what you're saying here is always true in men's case, about being applauded.

Um, what? I don't even know what you're trying to argue? I didn't make any generalizations about how men think or act. But it's an accurate social observation that OTHER PEOPLE who judge a man having lots of sex will do so less harshly than a woman who has a lot of sex. The stuff of mine you bolded says exactly that.

Of course it's not always true. But it's much more true than it is in the case of women. If you're trying to argue that sexism and gender double-standards don't exist... well, you need to take another look at the real world.

Modifié par Masako52, 31 août 2011 - 02:24 .

[Realmzmaster]

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

It's the lighting, it really honestly is. If you look at Isabela from DAO in the toolset, you can tell she's dark-skinned and has dark brown hair. Here's a link to an old thread about this: http://social.biowar...ndex/5104724/1 You can see a picture of Izzie in the toolset.

I've seen that before. I was just stating how it looked in game. By that reasoning "lighting" Zevran should look even paler than she does. He does not. Even if one tweaks the lighting it comes out as the same result in game.

It's not that I disagree - when I first played Origins I just assumed she was white. But she's not. Put her in the toolset and you'll see she's a woman of color, and no matter why she looks light in the tavern, it is just the lighting. For whatever reason she doesn't look dark-skinned, it's only the effect of the environment.

She's not white. If I were to give her an ethnicity from Earth, I would say something middle-eastern - Egyptian, maybe. Maybe even Indian (I have an Indian friend who looks just like her, sans the cleavage).

Egyptians are white. I'm pretty sure the Romani are too.

No all Egyptians are not white. Egyptians also consist of Nubians, Berbers, Bedouins, Bejas and Doms which are definitely not all white.

[Masako52]

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

It's the lighting, it really honestly is. If you look at Isabela from DAO in the toolset, you can tell she's dark-skinned and has dark brown hair. Here's a link to an old thread about this: http://social.biowar...ndex/5104724/1 You can see a picture of Izzie in the toolset.

I've seen that before. I was just stating how it looked in game. By that reasoning "lighting" Zevran should look even paler than she does. He does not. Even if one tweaks the lighting it comes out as the same result in game.

It's not that I disagree - when I first played Origins I just assumed she was white. But she's not. Put her in the toolset and you'll see she's a woman of color, and no matter why she looks light in the tavern, it is just the lighting. For whatever reason she doesn't look dark-skinned, it's only the effect of the environment.

She's not white. If I were to give her an ethnicity from Earth, I would say something middle-eastern - Egyptian, maybe. Maybe even Indian (I have an Indian friend who looks just like her, sans the cleavage).

Egyptians are white. I'm pretty sure the Romani are too.

No... an Egyptian can be white or light skinned, but the average Egyptian has brown skin. When I was in Egypt, at least 80% of people were mid to fairly dark, some were lighter, some were white. And you can still have light skin and not be considered ethnically white - just as a white person can have naturally tanned and darker toned skin but they're still white, not black or anything else.

At any rate, it doesn't really matter... because Isabela's not white. I was just trying to place her Earth ethnicity, and Egypt just popped into my mind. Do you have an ethnicity that she resembles, then?

[Monica21]

Masako52 wrote...
No... an Egyptian can be white or light skinned, but the average Egyptian has brown skin. When I was in Egypt, at least 80% of people were mid to fairly dark, some were lighter, some were white. And you can still have light skin and not be considered ethnically white - just as a white person can have naturally tanned and darker toned skin but they're still white, not black or anything else.

Egyptians can be varying colors but they are Caucasian. You'd have to go into pretty deep anthropological discussion to get anything else. You'd have to dig into ethnicity to really narrow it down, and she has no bone structure to make any kind of comparative analysis so it would all be moot anyway. If Isabela has to have a "race" it's Caucasion, even though this is a fantasy world.

At any rate, it doesn't really matter... because Isabela's not white. I was just trying to place her Earth ethnicity, and Egypt just popped into my mind. Do you have an ethnicity that she resembles, then?

I always figured Rivain was much more like Spain than Egypt, so if I had to peg her I'd say she's closer to that than middle eastern.

[RagingCyclone]

Monica21 wrote...

At any rate, it doesn't really matter... because Isabela's not white. I was just trying to place her Earth ethnicity, and Egypt just popped into my mind. Do you have an ethnicity that she resembles, then?

I always figured Rivain was much more like Spain than Egypt, so if I had to peg her I'd say she's closer to that than middle eastern.

I think Antiva is more like Spain. Isabela, and also Duncan IIRC, are both Rivaini. He was a rogue and cutpurse, and she a pirate, it makes me think more Caribbean like Dominican Republic or Jamaica than anywhere else.

[Monica21]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

At any rate, it doesn't really matter... because Isabela's not white. I was just trying to place her Earth ethnicity, and Egypt just popped into my mind. Do you have an ethnicity that she resembles, then?

I always figured Rivain was much more like Spain than Egypt, so if I had to peg her I'd say she's closer to that than middle eastern.

I think Antiva is more like Spain. Isabela, and also Duncan IIRC, are both Rivaini. He was a rogue and cutpurse, and she a pirate, it makes me think more Caribbean like Dominican Republic or Jamaica than anywhere else.

Yeah, I think you're right about Antiva. Rivain is the more sea-faring of the two though, isn't it? That reminds me more of the Spanish Armada. I always figured Thedas was kind of like a map of Europe flipped upside down and backwards. If Rivain is that sticky-out part, maybe Portugal? Or, I really need to get some sleep.

[RagingCyclone]

@Monica21, I was also thinking I saw in the codex that Rivain was a collection of islands. But I could be wrong on that.

[Gnaeus Trebonius]

Monica21 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

At any rate, it doesn't really matter... because Isabela's not white. I was just trying to place her Earth ethnicity, and Egypt just popped into my mind. Do you have an ethnicity that she resembles, then?

I always figured Rivain was much more like Spain than Egypt, so if I had to peg her I'd say she's closer to that than middle eastern.

I think Antiva is more like Spain. Isabela, and also Duncan IIRC, are both Rivaini. He was a rogue and cutpurse, and she a pirate, it makes me think more Caribbean like Dominican Republic or Jamaica than anywhere else.

Yeah, I think you're right about Antiva. Rivain is the more sea-faring of the two though, isn't it? That reminds me more of the Spanish Armada. I always figured Thedas was kind of like a map of Europe flipped upside down and backwards. If Rivain is that sticky-out part, maybe Portugal? Or, I really need to get some sleep.

Well, they are a fantasy hybridisation of multiple mediterranean cultures, but I'm more and more starting to think that they resemble the Ummayad era arabs in Iberia and their Andalusian culture. So, that would make Isabela racially caucasian, as many have pointed out, but I'm guessing "arab" really isn't considered "white" in America, no? Any of you guys across the pond are free to cofirm or deny this but I do feel that when BioWare was designing Isabela they where in fact catering to the minorities, so I would say the OP's point still stands.

And yes, the upside down map struck me as painfully obvious too.

[Gunderic]

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Well, you said so here too, so I think that wraps this one up, right? And, I don't quite think that what you're saying here is always true in men's case, about being applauded.

Um, what? I don't even know what you're trying to argue? I didn't make any generalizations about how men think or act. 

You did. You said:

1.) Sleeping around is a masculine trait.
2.) Men are not made to feel ashamed ( i.e. men feeling ashamed doesn't happen/happens less ).

[Gunderic]

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

It's the lighting, it really honestly is. If you look at Isabela from DAO in the toolset, you can tell she's dark-skinned and has dark brown hair. Here's a link to an old thread about this: http://social.biowar...ndex/5104724/1 You can see a picture of Izzie in the toolset.

I've seen that before. I was just stating how it looked in game. By that reasoning "lighting" Zevran should look even paler than she does. He does not. Even if one tweaks the lighting it comes out as the same result in game.

It's not that I disagree - when I first played Origins I just assumed she was white. But she's not. Put her in the toolset and you'll see she's a woman of color, and no matter why she looks light in the tavern, it is just the lighting. For whatever reason she doesn't look dark-skinned, it's only the effect of the environment.

She's not white. If I were to give her an ethnicity from Earth, I would say something middle-eastern - Egyptian, maybe. Maybe even Indian (I have an Indian friend who looks just like her, sans the cleavage).

Egyptians are white. I'm pretty sure the Romani are too.

No... an Egyptian can be white or light skinned, but the average Egyptian has brown skin. When I was in Egypt, at least 80% of people were mid to fairly dark, some were lighter, some were white. And you can still have light skin and not be considered ethnically white - just as a white person can have naturally tanned and darker toned skin but they're still white, not black or anything else.

At any rate, it doesn't really matter... because Isabela's not white. I was just trying to place her Earth ethnicity, and Egypt just popped into my mind. Do you have an ethnicity that she resembles, then?

So you get a person of:

1.)Darker skin tone.

2.)The same race as the usual 'leading cast of characters' you see in a work of fiction.

And use that as a model for increased diversity. You should really travel more often, because people don't kick others in the streets for having a darker skin tone. Ethnicity/race fuels racism/xenophobia, not mere complexion, and I assure you, Rivaini suffer no discrimination anywhere around the world based on their ethnicity.

And if you're not strictly referring to a darker complexion, then yes, she is white. She's Caucasian. Europeans have lots of different Caucasians. You keep talking about ethnicity, but I'm not sure if you know what that means. You seem to be basing your argument for diversity on anything *but* culture and ethnicity.

Modifié par Gunderic, 31 août 2011 - 01:43 .

[Masako52]

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Well, you said so here too, so I think that wraps this one up, right? And, I don't quite think that what you're saying here is always true in men's case, about being applauded.

Um, what? I don't even know what you're trying to argue? I didn't make any generalizations about how men think or act. 

You did. You said:

1.) Sleeping around is a masculine trait.
2.) Men are not made to feel ashamed ( i.e. men feeling ashamed doesn't happen/happens less ).

No.

1. Sleeping around is a masculine trait only in that it is ASSOCIATED with masculinity. As in, it's not necessarily innate in men, but society makes that distinction that men do it. (it's the social perception.) Just like, say, being gentle is associated with femininity - obviously, these are only stereotypes, but they're socially implied traits nonetheless.
2. There is significantly less of a chance that others will shame a man because he has sex. Could it happen? Yes. But society tells men that it's less bad if they do it, than if women do it. If women sleep around, society tells us that we are dirty sl*ts, and it's a very negative trait. Society is far less harsh toward men. I never said anything about a man's personal feelings and whether or not he feels ashamed. I said society doesn't shame them nearly as much as society shames women. And yeah, I'm willing to bet that because of that, more women do feel ashamed or guilty about their lifestyle than men do, because there's more pressure for women not to do it.

I really cannot comprehend how you could try to deny any of what I just said... (unless you're a man who's just getting defensive about this.)

[Gnaeus Trebonius]

@Gunderic

But what is meant by "woman of color" is probably "anything but female WASP". The WASPs beeing the oppressors of all.

[esper]

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Well, you said so here too, so I think that wraps this one up, right? And, I don't quite think that what you're saying here is always true in men's case, about being applauded.

Um, what? I don't even know what you're trying to argue? I didn't make any generalizations about how men think or act. 

You did. You said:

1.) Sleeping around is a masculine trait.
2.) Men are not made to feel ashamed ( i.e. men feeling ashamed doesn't happen/happens less ).

No.

1. Sleeping around is a masculine trait only in that it is ASSOCIATED with masculinity. As in, it's not necessarily innate in men, but society makes that distinction that men do it. (it's the social perception.) Just like, say, being gentle is associated with femininity - obviously, these are only stereotypes, but they're socially implied traits nonetheless.
2. There is significantly less of a chance that others will shame a man because he has sex. Could it happen? Yes. But society tells men that it's less bad if they do it, than if women do it. If women sleep around, society tells us that we are dirty sl*ts, and it's a very negative trait. Society is far less harsh toward men. I never said anything about a man's personal feelings and whether or not he feels ashamed. I said society doesn't shame them nearly as much as society shames women. And yeah, I'm willing to bet that because of that, more women do feel ashamed or guilty about their lifestyle than men do, because there's more pressure for women not to do it.

I really cannot comprehend how you could try to deny any of what I just said... (unless you're a man who's just getting defensive about this.)

I my experience men do get defensive if you try to discuss this with them. I, however, do think that you have some good points.

[Gunderic]

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Well, you said so here too, so I think that wraps this one up, right? And, I don't quite think that what you're saying here is always true in men's case, about being applauded.

Um, what? I don't even know what you're trying to argue? I didn't make any generalizations about how men think or act. 

You did. You said:

1.) Sleeping around is a masculine trait.
2.) Men are not made to feel ashamed ( i.e. men feeling ashamed doesn't happen/happens less ).

No.

1. Sleeping around is a masculine trait only in that it is ASSOCIATED with masculinity. As in, it's not necessarily innate in men, but society makes that distinction that men do it. (it's the social perception.) Just like, say, being gentle is associated with femininity - obviously, these are only stereotypes, but they're socially implied traits nonetheless.

Now you're splitting hairs. You didn't say it's associated 'incorrectly' or 'stereotyped', you just said 'it is', but regardless, how can there be so many negative perceptions about women sleeping around, if sleeping around is thought of as a masculine trait?

2. There is significantly less of a chance that others will shame a man because he has sex. Could it happen? Yes. But society tells men that it's less bad if they do it, than if women do it. If women sleep around, society tells us that we are dirty sl*ts, and it's a very negative trait. Society is far less harsh toward men.

I never said anything about a man's personal feelings and whether or not he feels ashamed.

And I don't really care about this. I never said you don't think some men wouldn't be ashamed of it, though, if we're at this point, why would they? I mean, if they're so ashamed of sleeping around, most wouldn't. And if society doesn't cast blame on them, why would they stop?

My point is not to state that there are exceptions; there always are. What I understand is that you're saying men generally sleep around more often than women, and also do not feel ashamed ( since women get persecuted for it )

Society is far less harsh toward men. I said society doesn't shame them nearly as much as society shames women.

You're incredibly ignorant if you think that. 

[whykikyouwhy]

Unfortunately, complexion *is* a factor with how some people are treated. As with racism/xenophobia and numerous other -isms, it boils down to ignorance and fear, but it does happen. Some people are judgemental, or have a knee-jerk reaction based on appearance. They react on the first impression of skin tone and what they think it may represent about the person.

As far as people from Rivain being discriminated against, I think there is some hint of that in the book 'The Calling.' There are some references to Duncan's background, and the sense that he is being judged based on how he looks and where he is believed to be from.

[Gunderic]

SparkleWaffle wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

You did. You said:

1.) Sleeping around is a masculine trait.
2.) Men are not made to feel ashamed ( i.e. men feeling ashamed doesn't happen/happens less ).

That was not what she said. She said that "sleeping around" is a trait that is associated with masculinity, which is vastly different. It's comparable to saying that being nuturing, for instance, is a trait that is associated with femininity, and in our culture, both of these statements are true. 

And that doesn't make a difference to me, 'if both of these statements are generally held to be true'.

Modifié par Gunderic, 31 août 2011 - 02:05 .

[Maconbar]

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Well, you said so here too, so I think that wraps this one up, right? And, I don't quite think that what you're saying here is always true in men's case, about being applauded.

Um, what? I don't even know what you're trying to argue? I didn't make any generalizations about how men think or act. 

You did. You said:

1.) Sleeping around is a masculine trait.
2.) Men are not made to feel ashamed ( i.e. men feeling ashamed doesn't happen/happens less ).

Nice job of misrepresentation. The OP never asserted the men feeling ashamed doesn't happen.

[Gunderic]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Unfortunately, complexion *is* a factor with how some people are treated.

(Though I was talking about what fuels racism/xenophobia, and the merit of different skin tones as being socially diverse ):

If they're both from the same ethnicity, I find it unlikely to be something widespread ( strictly referring to colour ). If they're ugly/pretty is a different matter entirely.

[Gunderic]

Maconbar wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Well, you said so here too, so I think that wraps this one up, right? And, I don't quite think that what you're saying here is always true in men's case, about being applauded.

Um, what? I don't even know what you're trying to argue? I didn't make any generalizations about how men think or act. 

You did. You said:

1.) Sleeping around is a masculine trait.
2.) Men are not made to feel ashamed ( i.e. men feeling ashamed doesn't happen/happens less ).

Nice job of misrepresentation. The OP never asserted the men feeling ashamed doesn't happen.

neither did I >.>

[Valcutio]

Political bias does not belong in video games that aren't marketed as such.

Want to be pro-something or anti-something? Put it on the box so people know what they're actually supporting. Let's see how well the sales go.

[Maconbar]

Gunderic wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Well, you said so here too, so I think that wraps this one up, right? And, I don't quite think that what you're saying here is always true in men's case, about being applauded.

Um, what? I don't even know what you're trying to argue? I didn't make any generalizations about how men think or act. 

You did. You said:

1.) Sleeping around is a masculine trait.
2.) Men are not made to feel ashamed ( i.e. men feeling ashamed doesn't happen/happens less ).

Nice job of misrepresentation. The OP never asserted the men feeling ashamed doesn't happen.

neither did I >.>

Actually then what does the statement 2. Men are not made to feel ashamed ( i.e., men feeling ashamed doesn't happen/happens less) mean?

[RagingCyclone]

Gnaeus Trebonius wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

At any rate, it doesn't really matter... because Isabela's not white. I was just trying to place her Earth ethnicity, and Egypt just popped into my mind. Do you have an ethnicity that she resembles, then?

I always figured Rivain was much more like Spain than Egypt, so if I had to peg her I'd say she's closer to that than middle eastern.

I think Antiva is more like Spain. Isabela, and also Duncan IIRC, are both Rivaini. He was a rogue and cutpurse, and she a pirate, it makes me think more Caribbean like Dominican Republic or Jamaica than anywhere else.

Yeah, I think you're right about Antiva. Rivain is the more sea-faring of the two though, isn't it? That reminds me more of the Spanish Armada. I always figured Thedas was kind of like a map of Europe flipped upside down and backwards. If Rivain is that sticky-out part, maybe Portugal? Or, I really need to get some sleep.

Well, they are a fantasy hybridisation of multiple mediterranean cultures, but I'm more and more starting to think that they resemble the Ummayad era arabs in Iberia and their Andalusian culture. So, that would make Isabela racially caucasian, as many have pointed out, but I'm guessing "arab" really isn't considered "white" in America, no? Any of you guys across the pond are free to cofirm or deny this but I do feel that when BioWare was designing Isabela they where in fact catering to the minorities, so I would say the OP's point still stands.

And yes, the upside down map struck me as painfully obvious too.

Being from "across the pond" * I like that* in America I think how those perceptions are also depends on what part of the US you are located. Midwesterners *like myself* view people differently than those on either coast, Southerners have a differnt view than the other three, and so do those who live in the upper western mountain states. But no matter where in the US there is a mixture of skins tones and races. So while the OP may be right in what they think is catering, I feel it's necessary. I was raised to be "color blind" when dealing with people, and one of the first mods I made for Origins was to add people of color into my game. I dont live in a one racial area but instead one with multiple races, and the singular racial makeup of DA is odd to me and a bit unrealistic. But I also understand that might just be my perception of the world. In either case I like that Isabela was designed like she is.