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[Gervaise]

Does anyone else find the way the romance paths work annoying?  The fact is if you hadn't read the various forums and wiki posts you wouldn't know that you should or shouldn't do certain actions to ensure a romance continues or reaches fruition.    Back in Origins you could flirt with more than one person and this situation would continue until you either broke it off voluntarily or someone called you out on the subject, when you would have to make a choice.  Even then it was possible to return to a former love - in fact you had to be quite careful not to encourage them too much after breaking it off or you might inadvertantly trigger another confrontation.  Even so, it was pretty clear where you stood with someone at various stages in the game and so didn't have to reload several quests back because you suddenly find you are no longer in a relationship.
I have just run foul of some strange romance flagging for the second time by sleeping with Isabella and then finding way down the line that this has stopped me romancing  Fenris any further (inspite of still being given the heart options).  The first time the problem was that I didn't choose the broken heart option but only the one indicating that we shouldn't let emotions complicate things, so got an emotionless romance, with no confession of love from Isabella in Act 3.   This time I chose the broken heart option after sleeping with Isabella but only after selecting the heart option followed by the dialogue about why she won't fall in love.  However, the previous option was Diplomatic, Heart or Aggresive.  There was no broken heart at this stage.  Now I've got down to Bitter Pill, thinking that this time I should be on target to take the relationship with Fenris further, only for him to walk out immediately - indicating no romance. 
So it would appear that in fact to romance Fenris, you simply must not sleep with anyone else even if it is before him.  Or is it just my version of the game that works like this?

[berelinde]

Fenris is insecure. If you tag anyone else, even light flirtation, he's out. How he knows that my one Hawke told Isabela that he'd do it for a kiss when Isabela was in the Hanged Man and Fenris was in Hightown is anybody's guess. New elves must come equiped with supernatural hearing.

That's my biggest complaint bout DA2 romances. Psychic lovers. The only two times that this isn't a problem is when Anders never finds out about Isabela and unless you bring your lover along, nobody finds out about Zevran. And how did Anders find out about Fenris, anyway? Did Fenris go around bragging to everyone?

[whykikyouwhy]

berelinde wrote...

Fenris is insecure. If you tag anyone else, even light flirtation, he's out. How he knows that my one Hawke told Isabela that he'd do it for a kiss when Isabela was in the Hanged Man and Fenris was in Hightown is anybody's guess. New elves must come equiped with supernatural hearing.

That's my biggest complaint bout DA2 romances. Psychic lovers. The only two times that this isn't a problem is when Anders never finds out about Isabela and unless you bring your lover along, nobody finds out about Zevran. And how did Anders find out about Fenris, anyway? Did Fenris go around bragging to everyone?

The companions probably talk rather freely during their evenings at the Hanged Man. Several mugs of rat-flavored whiskey will loosen the tongue.

@OP - The triggers for the romance paths can be a bit tricky to navigate, sure. But in some ways, that makes the acquiring the achievement a fun challenge. I didn't find those aspects to the plot annoying, though. The conversation-quest-make acceptable decisions structure seemed more consistent to me than DA:O's focus on gift-giving.

And yes, there are some companions that, once you start a romance with, you must stay true to (or reject altogether and then you cannot engage in any other romance). Fenris is one. Merrill and Anders also operate in the same fashion.

[randomcheeses]

Yes, this bugged me big time. Especially when it came to the Sebastian romance. You cannot flirt with anyone else at all ever or the romance dies. It's like : WTH dude? You've been in the chantry for the last couple of quests. How do you know whether I flirt with somone else or not. Does Elthina have spies watching me or something?

[esper]

I think the Isabella flirt thing is a bug, seriously.... Or she told Fenris as a part of her plan to have him guessing her underwear.
But you are a thight-knit group and Varric is terrible noisy. I could easily suspect that he somehow tricks it out of Bodhan who comes and leaves Hawke's room late at night. And once Varric knows everyone knows.
And I seriously thinks that if you sleep with someone else then you reletionshop is over. Fenris will assume that you have moved on - and honestly with the way he leaves, can you blame him?

And Gervaise have you done question belief before a bitter pill?

[esper]

I like that it is a challange that means I can't just romance everyone by forcing random gift x into ther throats.

[jlb524]

berelinde wrote...

Fenris is insecure. If you tag anyone else, even light flirtation, he's out. How he knows that my one Hawke told Isabela that he'd do it for a kiss when Isabela was in the Hanged Man and Fenris was in Hightown is anybody's guess. New elves must come equiped with supernatural hearing.

I think Isabela likes to brag a bit.

I mean, as soon as Hawke meets her, she's like, 'Oh, and I 'knew' the Hero of Ferelden...woooo!'

esper wrote...

I like that it is a challange that means I can't just romance everyone by forcing random gift x into ther throats.

Agreed. 

"Don't hate me, baby, here's a silver necklace!"

"Oh, shiny!  Why was I mad at you again?"

Modifié par jlb524, 29 août 2011 - 07:22 .

[Knight of Dane]

It doesn't bug me, I'm a little like Fenris in that regard, i would never try to flirt with someone that i thought "taken" by someone else already. If this is a bug or intentional i don't know though.

[devSin]

berelinde wrote...

Fenris is insecure. If you tag anyone else, even light flirtation, he's out. How he knows that my one Hawke told Isabela that he'd do it for a kiss when Isabela was in the Hanged Man and Fenris was in Hightown is anybody's guess. New elves must come equiped with supernatural hearing.

Seriously? The lady who brags that her loose lips sink ships? And you don't think Varric was watching? Expect that everybody in Kirkwall knows your business, not just the companions.

berelinde wrote...

That's my biggest complaint bout DA2 romances. Psychic lovers. The only two times that this isn't a problem is when Anders never finds out about Isabela and unless you bring your lover along, nobody finds out about Zevran. And how did Anders find out about Fenris, anyway? Did Fenris go around bragging to everyone?

Maybe Fenris walking out of your house with your monogrammed handkerchief on his wrist and ownership badge on his hip clued him in? I mean, they don't do it until you've slept together, and it's kind of obvious if you've been flirting that you're sweet on each other. Plus, Anders is hyper-sensitive and emotionally unstable. He's probably staring at you and watching all your mannerisms and expressions. He notices the sidelong glance, the shy smile, the brief touch. And I'm sure he agonizes over it and cries himself to sleep at night.

And they all like each other more than they like you anyway, so Fenris probably put on some jammies and snuggled under the comforter with Isabela and gabbed about their boyfriends and girlfriends. After that, the secret is out.

Modifié par devSin, 29 août 2011 - 07:40 .

[berelinde]

jlb524 wrote...
I think Isabela likes to brag a bit.

I mean, as soon as Hawke meets her, she's like, 'Oh, and I 'knew' the Hero of Ferelden...woooo!'

Yeah, but my Hawke was thinking "Yeah, right, and I slept with the Hero of Ferelden *and* King Alistair," to which Isabela would reply "Funny you should mention that."

As flamboyant as she is, I don't think she's much of a talker when it matters. She never tells Anders that she slept with Hawke. Or Merrill, either. The only reason I could imagine her telling Fenris but not the other two is that she understands that Anders and Merrill are more likely to be hurt if they find out. And I can very much see Fenris rubbing Anders's face in it. The pair of them are incredibly catty. Anders, probably slightly more than Fenris, but Fenris is guilty of it, too. After all, Anders knows that Fenris and the PC hooked up. He does not necessarily know that Fenris ended it. I could see Fenris accidentally forgetting to tell him about that part.

[FieryDove]

devSin wrote...

And they all like each other more than they like you anyway, so Fenris probably put on some jammies and snuggled under the comforter with Isabela and gabbed about their boyfriends and girlfriends. After that, the secret is out.

haha...that was great! Thanks I needed a laugh.

berelinde wrote...

As flamboyant as she is, I don't think she's much of a talker when it matters. She never tells Anders that she slept with Hawke.

She does in a banter. Does that count?

Modifié par FieryDove, 29 août 2011 - 07:43 .

[devSin]

berelinde wrote...

And I can very much see Fenris rubbing Anders's face in it. The pair of them are incredibly catty. Anders, probably slightly more than Fenris, but Fenris is guilty of it, too. After all, Anders knows that Fenris and the PC hooked up. He does not necessarily know that Fenris ended it. I could see Fenris accidentally forgetting to tell him about that part.

I don't think that'd be in-character for Fenris at all.

He's not going to use it just to spite Anders. And when Anders brings it up, Fenris immediately shuts him down (and tells him that you two are quits).

When Fenris goes after Anders, he uses Anders' words and actions against him. If Anders says or does something, Fenris will call him on it. But he's not like Anders, who runs around pleading for approval and trying to score points with everyone (or just goading Sebastian).

Modifié par devSin, 29 août 2011 - 07:51 .

[esper]

berelinde wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I think Isabela likes to brag a bit.

I mean, as soon as Hawke meets her, she's like, 'Oh, and I 'knew' the Hero of Ferelden...woooo!'

Yeah, but my Hawke was thinking "Yeah, right, and I slept with the Hero of Ferelden *and* King Alistair," to which Isabela would reply "Funny you should mention that."

As flamboyant as she is, I don't think she's much of a talker when it matters. She never tells Anders that she slept with Hawke. Or Merrill, either. The only reason I could imagine her telling Fenris but not the other two is that she understands that Anders and Merrill are more likely to be hurt if they find out. And I can very much see Fenris rubbing Anders's face in it. The pair of them are incredibly catty. Anders, probably slightly more than Fenris, but Fenris is guilty of it, too. After all, Anders knows that Fenris and the PC hooked up. He does not necessarily know that Fenris ended it. I could see Fenris accidentally forgetting to tell him about that part.

Ouch... But I could actually see that happening.
Anders: Why are you taking wearing Hawke's family crest.
Fenris. Why do you think I wear it, mage.
Anders walks away all kind of hurts and has of course jumped to the worst conclusions. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The main thing that bothered me about the romances (other than most of them not appealing to me the first time around) was that if you ended up flirting with more than one and getting involved there is no clear cut decision point like there is in Dao or Mass Effect. One just supersedes the other without a great deal of rhyme or reason. If I romanced Isabella first and then Anders there's a reference to Isabella during his scene but as I understand that's the last time it comes up.

[esper]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The main thing that bothered me about the romances (other than most of them not appealing to me the first time around) was that if you ended up flirting with more than one and getting involved there is no clear cut decision point like there is in Dao or Mass Effect. One just supersedes the other without a great deal of rhyme or reason. If I romanced Isabella first and then Anders there's a reference to Isabella during his scene but as I understand that's the last time it comes up.

That's because it is pretty obvious that Anders and Merrill moves in. And what is not obvious. The last person you slept with is the person you are in a relationshio with. Seems logical to me.

[Gervaise]

Then at least give you some indication - like no longer getting the heart options.  After all, if you want to teach Fenris to read you have to chose the heart option - so when romancing Sebastian my girl had to get shirty with Fenris because there wasn't a diplomatic option available for the Shartan quest.   And if I hadn't known you mustn't flirt with anyone to get Sebastian I would have been snookered before he even joined our party, given this doesn't happen until Act 2, but you have the option to flirt in Act 1
 
Seriously, there is nothing wrong with a bit of flirting - sometimes it is no more than a bit of saucy banter.  Fenris and Isabella are indulging in it all the time - or does talk about his underwear and removing his armor not count?  In fact I have found that unless I do flirt with Isabella I can't get her friendship scale up high enough for her to return at the end of Act 2 - the number of approvals on quests generally cancelled out by the number of disapprovals, so she remains about even.  It does seem a bit of cheap earning of favour, no different from giving gifts, if I can flirt with Fenris and seemingly get friendship points as a result but that apparently it doesn't mean anything.   Is it not meant to be insecurity but jealousy on his part - after all I gather he and Isabella get together in Act 3 if you don't romance either of them?

Now generally I am a very loyal lover with my characters but in Origins my Cousland chap took his favourite book seriously and slept with everyone he could, and strangely enough they were all on good terms by the end of the game (well except he upset Morrigan by turning her dark ritual down but otherwise would have been okay).   The thing is everybody knew where they stood, including me. 

In any case, it would appear to be the flirting (or sleeping) with Isabella that ruins the Fenris relationship because my girl Hawke flirted with both Fenris and Anders right up to the point where she slept with Fenris, and could have then moved on to Anders if she had wanted to.   Also my first chap could have moved on from Isabella to Anders if he wished - just not Fenris.  Anders specifically asks about the earlier relationship with Isabella and my chap replied that he and Isabella had agreed not to get serious (or words to that effect).   

To be honest I'm not that bothered about earning achievements - I just would like characters to give some indication if I have upset them - for example by saying why are you flirting with me that way when I thought you were in a relationship with X?    Then you have the option of saying, I made a big mistake, please forgive me.    After all you have to endure 3 lonely years without any companion if you want to keep Fenris - if you can forgive, why can't he?

[esper]

There were a tread sometime ago about Sebastian and the flirt options. I don't think all the flirt options count as flirt options. But you will have to dig that thread up or ask at the Sebastian thread. Seriously the databook is nor realiable with romances.

And some people are just picky. It is a part of Fenris personalities that he doens't think he is good enough if Hawke can find someone else. There are types that would always step in the background in such issues. Speaking from personal experience I can say that I would never start a relationship with a person in my circle of friends if they had already slept with someone else in our common friend circle. They very idea that they could compare me to someone I know is off putting for me, so I understand Fenris reluctance in that regard.
I also don't understand why we should need more hand holding than the heart icons - really. The challenge is a part of the game. First time I romance anyone I concentrate solely on them than I can always experiment in later playthroughs or just keep a save file from the beginning of the act so I can go back.

[berelinde]

FieryDove wrote...

berelinde wrote...

As flamboyant as she is, I don't think she's much of a talker when it matters. She never tells Anders that she slept with Hawke.

She does in a banter. Does that count?

Technically yes, but by that point, it no longer matters. I assume you're talking about the part where Anders and Fenris are taking pop-shots at each other and Isabela chimes in with something along the lines of "Oh, will you two get over yourselves! I did him/her, too." She doesn't say that to hurt Anders. It's more to get the two of them to stop bickering.

I love the bickering, by the way. It's deliciously catty.

[Gervaise]

Okay, let me go back to one of my Wardens, who was struggling to come to terms with the fact that he was gay - he was Dalish and I assumed that there is probably a lot of pressure to get married there  to keep numbers up and so the fact that he was unattached at beginning, I decided to make my starting point, since he was clearly a very capable hunter, so that would not have been an obstacle.    So initially he is flirting with any girl he meets because he keeps thinking that eventually one of them will ignite a spark with him and he sleeps with Morrigan because she invites him into her tent and he is intrigued by her.  Anyway, he never really considered having a relationship with a man until Zevran pops up and suggests it to him - then the penny drops and he realises why he has been having so much difficulty up to now.   After this he is totally loyal to Zevran and the feeling is reciprocated.

So why can you not have a similar scenario with Hawke?  In this case, mother has already said she is on the look out for marriage partners for him and he is rather worried that he might not be able to perform, so when Isabella makes eyes at him, he flirts back and bingo she jumps him one night back at his mansion, but that just makes him realise that girls don't do it for him.  So he breaks it off with Bella and goes with his gut instinct, which was Fenris.   Except now it would appear that either he is saddled with Bella (because Mum mentions her as his love interest) or no one, because inexplicably Fenris is accepting his flirtatious advances but steadfastly not letting it go any further.   Again, oddly enough, if they do sleep together and Fenris leaves, he can ask Fenris if it is because he feels odd about being with a man, but there is not the possibility of doing it the other way round, Hawke finds it odd being with a woman but only realises it once he has.  Not everyone is bisexual and not everyone wants a quicky at the Rose to find out.

You see, I am trying to role play this, not just notch up achievements.

[esper]

Gervaise wrote...

Okay, let me go back to one of my Wardens, who was struggling to come to terms with the fact that he was gay - he was Dalish and I assumed that there is probably a lot of pressure to get married there  to keep numbers up and so the fact that he was unattached at beginning, I decided to make my starting point, since he was clearly a very capable hunter, so that would not have been an obstacle.    So initially he is flirting with any girl he meets because he keeps thinking that eventually one of them will ignite a spark with him and he sleeps with Morrigan because she invites him into her tent and he is intrigued by her.  Anyway, he never really considered having a relationship with a man until Zevran pops up and suggests it to him - then the penny drops and he realises why he has been having so much difficulty up to now.   After this he is totally loyal to Zevran and the feeling is reciprocated.

So why can you not have a similar scenario with Hawke?  In this case, mother has already said she is on the look out for marriage partners for him and he is rather worried that he might not be able to perform, so when Isabella makes eyes at him, he flirts back and bingo she jumps him one night back at his mansion, but that just makes him realise that girls don't do it for him.  So he breaks it off with Bella and goes with his gut instinct, which was Fenris.   Except now it would appear that either he is saddled with Bella (because Mum mentions her as his love interest) or no one, because inexplicably Fenris is accepting his flirtatious advances but steadfastly not letting it go any further.   Again, oddly enough, if they do sleep together and Fenris leaves, he can ask Fenris if it is because he feels odd about being with a man, but there is not the possibility of doing it the other way round, Hawke finds it odd being with a woman but only realises it once he has.  Not everyone is bisexual and not everyone wants a quicky at the Rose to find out.

You see, I am trying to role play this, not just notch up achievements.

Because Fenris would feel uncomfortable with it. You have to take Fenris into consideration, not just Hawke. Besides Fenris, advances are not that obvious unless you pick heart first. 
You could do it with Anders, though. There are even specific dialog choices like, Hawke saying:... I have never considered. In his first dialog. 
You can't have Fenris this way in da2, just like you gay elf, couldn't have Alistar.  

[Heidenreich]

Basically put, Fenris is insecure. He stops the flirtation cold/doesn't continue the relationship if you leave and flirt/sleep with someone else. Because he doesn't think he's worthy of Hawke to begin with, even if he doesn't much like Hawke.

Thus, sleeping with Fenris -- then Sleeping with someone else, will end the relationship. He wants Hawke to move on, because he doesn't believe he's good enough. To quote Jacob about Miranda in ME2 "She deserves a better man then I". This is how Fenris feels about Hawke, male or female. Even if you only sleep with Bela and then send her on her merry way, Fenris some-how hears about it... probably because Bela wants to sleep with Fenris as well, and is trying to impress him with "even managing to bed Hawke".

Fenris isn't going to make a big deal out of it, because since he doesn't feel worthy of Hawke in the first place, a Hawke who appears to have chosen someone else is almost exactly what he expects.

That's not a bad thing. It's just part of his character. The same goes for both Merrill and Anders in that they're relationship juggernauts. Merrill and Anders move in, and profess undying love. Thus, Isabela (who loves Merrill like a little sister, and who isn't comfortable with the idea of love and is content to leave Hawke to Anders should they want to go..) and Fenris are turned off.


So my advice? If you want to sleep with Bela, and Fenris, do Bela first. The "Sleep and go" Bela can be completed before you start the Fenris Act2 "how you doin!" conversation and subsequent quests that eventually lead to him showing up at your doorstep.

[Gervaise]

That's the whole point - I slept with Bella, immediately realised it was a bad idea and broke it off (broken heart icon). Then carried on through game, no longer flirting with anyone but Fenris, taking every heart option offered for him and only began to suspect something was wrong when mother mentioned my pirate girlfriend, which was strange since she was no longer my girlfriend. So we hike off to kill Hadrianna and when we return, Fenris leaves before anything happens, so clearly he thinks I'm in a relationship too. But I'm not!!!

[esper]

Again did you do question belief before a bitter pill?

[Gervaise]

No because my friendship rating wasn't high enough until after completing the caves and so now I can't do it until after completing a Bitter Pill. I seem to recall that somewhere it said this is a bug and will mess up the Fenris romance, in which case why hasn't something been done about it by the developers? It is occasionally nice to vary the order in which you do things and to have to avoid leaving Kirkwall simply because it will trigger Fenris Bitter Pill and you have to wait until his friendship/rivalry rating is sufficiently advanced or it will mess up, is extremely annoying. Still doesn't explain why mother (the game) thinks I am in a relationship with Bella when I am not.

[esper]

Gervaise wrote...

No because my friendship rating wasn't high enough until after completing the caves and so now I can't do it until after completing a Bitter Pill. I seem to recall that somewhere it said this is a bug and will mess up the Fenris romance, in which case why hasn't something been done about it by the developers? It is occasionally nice to vary the order in which you do things and to have to avoid leaving Kirkwall simply because it will trigger Fenris Bitter Pill and you have to wait until his friendship/rivalry rating is sufficiently advanced or it will mess up, is extremely annoying. Still doesn't explain why mother (the game) thinks I am in a relationship with Bella when I am not.

That is your problem then. Fenris won't sleep with you until you have done his question belief. Try to do it and be sure to pick the heart icons in it and then go to your house at night and see if he doesn't come.