135 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaron Oberyn]

Why is it that every walkthrough video David Silverman boasts about how you can play the game as tactical, stealth, or run 'n gun? Are the other two games not sufficient enough evidence to prove that statement wrong? When they're talking about it in the walkthrough, he states that by pulling up the power wheel you're playing the game in a tactical manner. How is that so? Even better, when approaching a wall or object for cover, he exclaims that you can play it in stealth. So by grabbing cover, a mechanic that's been in the last two games, and other shooters, you're in stealth? Really? The only way to play Mass Effect is the same way it's been since the first game, run 'n gun. Mind you that taking cover when necessary doesn't make it a stealth game, and pulling up the power/weapon wheel to select something outside of your RB or LB buttons doesn't constitute a tactical game.

I can only assume they're using this type of marketing to copy Deus Ex Human Revolutions multipath combat. However the difference between these two games is that DXHR actually allows you to play it in each of those combat styles. I have no problem with the full frontal gameplay of the Mass Effect series, but I find it odd that they're marketing it as something it's not. I couldn't help but notice this given the fact that the only level we've been shown at nearly 5 conventions is the Krogan mission. Just by observing the level layout in these videos, it is pretty much impossible to play a stealth role. Yeah, they may have had a scripted sequence where a guard is looking the other way and you can get past them, but again it isn't true stealth.

So in closing, do any of you believe the combat hype we've been hearing, given the actual visual representation of it that we've seen so far?



-Polite

[lazuli]

Presumably enemies aren't instantly aware of Shepard when he or she is on cover anymore. Line of sight mechanics might be implemented so that, for instance, when Infiltrator Shepard pops out of Cloak the enemies don't all immediately snap to attention.

I think we'll know more when the Infiltrator is revealed. That said, there was a video at E3 showing limited stealth. Soldier Shepard on Sur'Kesh crept along cover, flanked a Cerberus trooper, and shanked him.

I'm not expecting revolutionary stealth mechanics. This isn't Splinter Cell. It would be nice to see it improved over ME2, though.

[BatmanPWNS]

I really doubt it will be as multiple ways as he is talking about. It will probably end up being straight up shooting.

[Shepard Lives]

Of course they're copying Deus Ex. I mean, Deus Ex is the first game in history to have alternate ways to approach combat, so I don't see what else they could be copying.

This just in, sport: the purpose of marketing is to spout catchphrases and embellish the truth in order to make people want to buy the game. Are you honestly surprised that they're saying ME3 can be played in a dozen different ways?

[Babli]

PoliteAssasin wrote...
So in closing, do any of you believe the combat hype we've been hearing, given the actual visual representation of it that we've seen so far?

I dont believe anything David Silverman says.

[sephiroth199127]

I doubt it will be as dynamic as people will hope, I will use the same tactic i have used in all Mass Effects, find the nearest chest high wall and shoot from there.

[Chewin]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Why is it that every walkthrough video David Silverman boasts about how you can play the game as tactical, stealth, or run 'n gun? Are the other two games not sufficient enough evidence to prove that statement wrong? When they're talking about it in the walkthrough, he states that by pulling up the power wheel you're playing the game in a tactical manner. How is that so? Even better, when approaching a wall or object for cover, he exclaims that you can play it in stealth. So by grabbing cover, a mechanic that's been in the last two games, and other shooters, you're in stealth? Really? The only way to play Mass Effect is the same way it's been since the first game, run 'n gun. Mind you that taking cover when necessary doesn't make it a stealth game, and pulling up the power/weapon wheel to select something outside of your RB or LB buttons doesn't constitute a tactical game.

Of course ME3 will remain a "run'n'gun" game. They've just added some new stuff to it. And if you haven't noticed, the stealth thing is not just about going to cover, it's about the enemy not sensing your presence during combat and non combat, which was badly done in the other ME games.

And why are you judging the game when you barely even seen anything of what they've introduced?

And as for ME3 copying Deus Ex; so? You think BW is the first company doing so? Don't be simple minded now.

I couldn't help but notice this given the fact that the only level we've been shown at nearly 5 conventions is the Krogan mission. Just by observing the level layout in these videos, it is pretty much impossible to play a stealth role. Yeah, they may have had a scripted sequence where a guard is looking the other way and you can get past them, but again it isn't true stealth.

Er, have you even been following these conventions? True, we've seen a lot of Sur'Kesh, but we've seen other places too. If you're referring to that we've seen nothing of the other planets, then sure, complain all you want.

[RocketManSR2]

Not just Silverman, I don't believe anything the marketing department says at this point.

[SNascimento]

We pretty much saw only one minor level so there is not much to say. But combat will be hardly much different from ME2.
.
It will be much improved, for sure, but the basics will be the same. So I expect a bit more stealth because of that but nothing major. ME was never about gameplay styles like Deus Ex.

[lazuli]

sephiroth199127 wrote...

I doubt it will be as dynamic as people will hope, I will use the same tactic i have used in all Mass Effects, find the nearest chest high wall and shoot from there.

If the talk is to be believed, the increased focus on close combat and enhaned enemy AI might make your strategy obsolete.  If it doesn't, all they need to do is add husks with chainsaws* in a mandatory patch.

*(gruesome Resident Evil 4 scene)

[FlyingWalrus]

Deus Ex was the first game ever to allow alternate approaches to combat? Man, what was I thinking when I played Metal Gear all those years ago.

Also, run and gun in Deus Ex: Human Revolution is an illusion. On the hardest difficulty, you die very, very hard if you try the guns blazing route.

That said, Silverman is just beating the marketeering drum. Grain, salt. It'll likely be the same gameplay as with all Mass Effects, but shinier and sharper. Improved AI is my biggest concern as I want to fight foes that are tactically intelligent as opposed to relying on swarm tactics and how much tungsten they can fill the air with.

[alex90c]

Babli wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
So in closing, do any of you believe the combat hype we've been hearing, given the actual visual representation of it that we've seen so far?

I dont believe anything David Silverman says.

"So how will Bioware resolve the romance plots in ME3?"

Silverman: "Who cares, it's war!"

:lol:

[Biotic Sage]

alex90c wrote...

Babli wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
So in closing, do any of you believe the combat hype we've been hearing, given the actual visual representation of it that we've seen so far?

I dont believe anything David Silverman says.

"So how will Bioware resolve the romance plots in ME3?"

Silverman: "Who cares, it's war!"

:lol:

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with approaching Silverman's quotes with a few thousand grains of salt.  He is the PR and marketing guy, so he focuses on being personable and enthusiastic.  In my opinion, the person in this position should still have a respectable amount of knowledge of what he is marketing, and everything I've seen from Silverman tells me that he has either never actually played through any Mass Effect game or he was forced to play through it once and didn't pay much attention.

Also, not to be mean or anything, but in my opinion he's not even that good with people to begin with.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 29 août 2011 - 09:44 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

I really doubt it will be as multiple ways as he is talking about. It will probably end up being straight up shooting.

That was what I was thinking unfortunately.

sephiroth199127 wrote...

I doubt it will be as dynamic as
people will hope, I will use the same tactic i have used in all Mass
Effects, find the nearest chest high wall and shoot from there.

Agreed. This seems to be the only way to play it. I'm not complaining about it, but marketing it otherwise just puzzles me.

Chewin3 wrote...

And why are you judging the game when you barely even seen anything of what they've introduced?

And as for ME3 copying Deus Ex; so? You think BW is the first company doing so? Don't be simple minded now.

How
exactly was I judging the game when I specifically said I wasn't
complaining? I merely stated that I found it odd that Silverman is
marketing the combat to be something that it isn't. There aren't 3 ways
you can approach combat in ME, there's only one.

When I
mentioned that they were perhaps copying DX, I wasn't referring to
stealth mechanics, I was referring to their marketing. I suggest you
read the entire original post so that you can fully comprehend my
position on this topic.

SNascimento wrote...
 ME was never about gameplay styles like Deus Ex.

Exactly my point, so why is Silverman making it seem like it is?

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Deus Ex was the first game ever to allow alternate approaches to combat?

If you say so, then sure. Don't know where you got that from though.


-Polite

[davidshooter]

I haven't seen anything in the released gameplay that isn't ME2 gameplay on ME2 levels. We have a new animation for melee, and a new roll move, everything else looks the same to me. Since marketing is really hyping these two new additions I'm worried that nothing beyond that has really changed. Silverman is going on about open levels and multiple ways to approach enemies during a demo which is just a corridor and not even as open as Haestrom. - I hope I'm wrong and there is great stuff to come but so far I haven't seen anything that isn't for all intents and purposes ME2 combat.

[Destroy Raiden_]

It's hard to be stealthy when you've already launched your cain into your enemies....I think by that point if you're loud off the bat and announce you're here then no amount of cover will make you stealthy you more then likely have to sneak in, stay quite, stay down, and then you're in stealth mode so long as your team aren't idiots and start screaming or shooting you should be ok but if anyone notices you've just taken a guy out the gig is up.

I hope the level design isn't so point A - B or like in Tali's rescue mission use 3 paths to get to the same door. I would rather it be like MGS pick three totally different routes, use 3 different exit/entrance points, and do your thing.

I understand sometimes that won't always be possible but I'd rather it be the rule then the exception. I'd also like to carve out hidden paths like say shep being cyborg his eyes will pick up hidden doors or you see a wall that looks unstable shoot it and you've got a brand new path that leads to a brandnew area you can't access otherwise it may take you around the enemy completely or into a brand new set of them.

[Chewin]

PoliteAssasin wrote...
When I
mentioned that they were perhaps copying DX, I wasn't referring to
stealth mechanics, I was referring to their marketing. I suggest you
read the entire original post so that you can fully comprehend my
position on this topic.

I was referring to BW coping the marketing. I can't see how you started thinking I wasn't.

[United_Strafes]

Is Deus Ex the Holy Grail of action RPGs all the sudden? I'm playing now and it's a good game, but come on, there's a difference in attitude from a security specialist unraveling a conspiracy than a one man army out to stop galactic destruction.

Is there a reason for me NOT to want to kill husks created by the enemy who's sole mission is to wipe out my race?

Why was it so painfully obvious this would be another thread where Deus Ex was compared to Mass Effect, they're really not similar games at all.

Modifié par United_Strafes, 30 août 2011 - 08:11 .

[Arppis]

Copy all you want, but do it better than what the thing you are copying did. I am all for copying stuff, we wouldn't have half of the games now if they didn't and good ideas would be replaced with really bad subsitute ideas.

[Blooddrunk1004]

Don't believe anything Silverman says.
99% stuff that comes from his mouth is BS.
He called upgrading powers and abilities "deep RPG elements" rofl.

[Luigitornado]

Shepard Lives wrote...

Of course they're copying Deus Ex. I mean, Deus Ex is the first game in history to have alternate ways to approach combat, so I don't see what else they could be copying.

This just in, sport: the purpose of marketing is to spout catchphrases and embellish the truth in order to make people want to buy the game. Are you honestly surprised that they're saying ME3 can be played in a dozen different ways?

Wrong. Marketing's purpose is to fulfill consumer’s needs and wants. And what Silverman has been doing can not be defined as marketing, but he is transparently using a marketing tool: communication...which he is exploiting to "embellish the truth."

Modifié par Luigitornado, 30 août 2011 - 01:09 .

[Bozorgmehr 2.0]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

The only way to play Mass Effect is the same way it's been since the first game, run 'n gun. Mind you that taking cover when necessary doesn't make it a stealth game, and pulling up the power/weapon wheel to select something outside of your RB or LB buttons doesn't constitute a tactical game.

You've just confirmed you've no idea what tactics are. Are you seriously claiming 'tactics' are non-existent in modern day warfare? I've not seen a soldier yet who presses his/her RB button to put an enemy tank in Stasis

I can only assume they're using this type of marketing to copy Deus Ex Human Revolutions multipath combat.

Deus Ex copy-pasted Splinter Cell's stealth system, so it's pretty ridiculous to proclaim DE is something revolutionary. In fact, DE and ME have a lot in common in the sense that they are both games that try to connect and intergrate different genres / gameplay modes into one game.

However the difference between these two games is that DXHR actually allows you to play it in each of those combat styles.

Have you tried a boss battle yet?

Don't get me wrong. DE is a great game and I love playing it thus far (haven't finished it yet). But in terms of different gameplay options things are not nearly like you describe them. In DE you can play like you can in Splinter Cell (not really something revolutionary); you can gun down the enemy (like in all other shooters); or you can use the airvents which have been designed like an additional map for the player alone (those vents serve no purpose besides giving the player multiple routes to move around).

All in all, DE provides the player with a few options which is a good thing. But so does ME. Anyone who's saying the way a ME2 Widow Infiltrator approaches combat (or a specific fight/battle) is exactly like how a CQC Shotgun Infiltrator would have, has little knowledge (or hasn't played) ME 2 (at all). This is just an example about one out of six available classes - and even one class can be played in completely different ways.

Playing a Vanguard is a completely different experience than playing an Engineer. Soldiers and Adepts have little in common. The Sentinel can be a strong caster or a near-invincible tank (or a little bit of both). There are plenty of options available in ME2, and the confirmed improvements for ME3 (regarding powers and their evolutions / customization options) are looking pretty good thus far (IMHO). I'm not even mentioning your teammembers (which you don't have in DE), they can seriously improve your combat potential, you can use them to setup quick and devastating power-combos, it can make a lot of difference which ones you use for specific missions - those are tactical decisions btw.

All in all I would say ME2 has more replay value because it offers more ways to play than Deus Ex. A decent stealth system is not (yet) available in ME (hopefully it will be in ME3), so you do have a point there. But everything else is pure nonsense.

[Kel_Sjet]

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

The only way to play Mass Effect is the same way it's been since the first game, run 'n gun. Mind you that taking cover when necessary doesn't make it a stealth game, and pulling up the power/weapon wheel to select something outside of your RB or LB buttons doesn't constitute a tactical game.

You've just confirmed you've no idea what tactics are. Are you seriously claiming 'tactics' are non-existent in modern day warfare?

You've just confirmed you're wrong. Where did that poster, anywhere, mention anything or even hint at anything to do with modern day warfare? Let us hope you aren't presuming that just because 'cover' exists in ME and 'cover' exists in modern day warfare, that the two things are even faintly similar in any way. Let us hope that you aren't trying to say that ME serves as a good simulator for actual combat.

I can only assume they're using this type of marketing to copy Deus Ex Human Revolutions multipath combat.

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...
Deus Ex copy-pasted Splinter Cell's stealth system, so it's pretty ridiculous to proclaim DE is something revolutionary. In fact, DE and ME have a lot in common in the sense that they are both games that try to connect and intergrate different genres / gameplay modes into one game.

Deus Ex was released a full 2 years+ before Splinter Cell. Claiming that DE copied Splinter Cell is downright preposterous.
Deus Ex is considered a seminal game in gaming history precisely because it was the first successful merger of the FPS and RPG genres. It was the first game that didn't just propose the illusion of choice, but actually deliver on giving the player real choice as well.
Its easy to try and deny that by just saying "NO", but again, you would be wrong. Deus Ex is a masterpiece of gaming history.

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...
Have you tried a boss battle yet?

I have. And I also know Deus Ex isn't WoW, where 'only the boss battles matter'. If you cannot take out a boss while fully outfitted for stealth or hacking, it is you who is doing it wrong. Not the game. Almost any build in DE has the minimum requisite 'shooty' requirements needed to beat a boss. The bosses aren't the only things in the game. Those multiple hours of play needed before and after bosses are actually where gameplay choices define your character.
It is easy (and extremely intellectually lazy) to go "LOLOLO haf to shoot boss so the gaem sux no choice", since, like all lazy analysis, you are completely ignoring the rest of the game.

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...
you can gun down the enemy (like in all other shooters); or you can use the airvents which have been designed like an additional map for the player alone (those vents serve no purpose besides giving the player multiple routes to move around).

You are so wrong here that I'm not even sure where to start.
Again, you have purposefully ignored the entire hacking game. Furthermore, the vents aren't just "to allow players to move around lololo", they are a fundamental part of the stealth gameplay.
Again, just because you are either incapable or uninterested in exploring the extent of the 'other' gameplay avenues you have, doesn't mean they are actually broken or don't exist. I have fully completed DE:HR multiple times using varying different gameplay techniques each run. Just because you can't, doesn't mean they don't exist or are insubstantial.

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...
All in all, DE provides the player with a few options which is a good thing. But so does ME.

And this is the crux of the issue.

I have read a lot of your posting history and I think your biggest problem, Bozorgmehr, is that you are so zealous in your belief that ME is the 'perfect game' that you end up doing shoddy analysis and being intellectually lazy about everything else.

The day you stop interpreting every criticism or point being made about ME and another game in a negative light, and stop thinking that everything is an attack on "your precious", will be the day, imho, where you start making much more accurate points and contributing much much more to the conversation.


After all, zealots get really irritating, very quickly.

[robarcool]

Babli wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
So in closing, do any of you believe the combat hype we've been hearing, given the actual visual representation of it that we've seen so far?

I dont believe anything David Silverman says.

I too.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Shepard Lives wrote...

Of course they're copying Deus Ex. I mean, Deus Ex is the first game in history to have alternate ways to approach combat, so I don't see what else they could be copying.

This just in, sport: the purpose of marketing is to spout catchphrases and embellish the truth in order to make people want to buy the game. Are you honestly surprised that they're saying ME3 can be played in a dozen different ways?

2nd paragraph: Yes, totally agreed.

1st paragraph: edit: Wow, I feel dumb. Lol, never mind.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 30 août 2011 - 03:00 .