135 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

It's hard to be stealthy when you've already launched your cain into your enemies....I think by that point if you're loud off the bat and announce you're here then no amount of cover will make you stealthy you more then likely have to sneak in, stay quite, stay down, and then you're in stealth mode so long as your team aren't idiots and start screaming or shooting you should be ok but if anyone notices you've just taken a guy out the gig is up.

I don't see it working out this way, as they would have to seriously revamp squadmate AI for this to even approach functionality.  As it is in ME2, squadmates just run in like idiots unless micromanaged.  I'm hoping they're smarter in ME3, but I really doubt the changes will be significant enough for them to use stealth tactics.

I still say it's about line of sight.  If you fire, duck into cover, and then move, enemies that can't see you might assume you're still where you were when you fired.

What I'm talking about is, for lack of a better word/phrase, shallow stealth.  It's a fleeting effect whereby an enemy or group of enemies thinks you're somewhere else for a moment, allowing you to do cover-kills and the like.  I'm not talking about Splinter Cell stealth or even ME2: Arrival (scripted) stealth.

[azerSheppard]

"Silverman is just doing his job."

Really, the only skill you need to sell things, is the skill of marketing, you don't need to know the product, just how to entice people.

[Luigitornado]

azerSheppard wrote...

"Silverman is just doing his job."

Really, the only skill you need to sell things, is the skill of marketing, you don't need to know the product, just how to entice people.

Again. Wrong.

[azerSheppard]

Luigitornado wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

"Silverman is just doing his job."

Really, the only skill you need to sell things, is the skill of marketing, you don't need to know the product, just how to entice people.

Again. Wrong.

Marketing major perhaps? No? 
A "hustler" could get you to buy something he picked up just a minute ago, with the right skills. Many door to door salesmen are succesful due to technique rather than the knowledge about the product, or even it's quality.

Welcome to the real world.

[Destroy Raiden_]

lazuli wrote...

Destroy Raiden wrote...

It's hard to be stealthy when you've already launched your cain into your enemies....I think by that point if you're loud off the bat and announce you're here then no amount of cover will make you stealthy you more then likely have to sneak in, stay quite, stay down, and then you're in stealth mode so long as your team aren't idiots and start screaming or shooting you should be ok but if anyone notices you've just taken a guy out the gig is up.

I don't see it working out this way, as they would have to seriously revamp squadmate AI for this to even approach functionality.  As it is in ME2, squadmates just run in like idiots unless micromanaged.  I'm hoping they're smarter in ME3, but I really doubt the changes will be significant enough for them to use stealth tactics.

I still say it's about line of sight.  If you fire, duck into cover, and then move, enemies that can't see you might assume you're still where you were when you fired.

What I'm talking about is, for lack of a better word/phrase, shallow stealth.  It's a fleeting effect whereby an enemy or group of enemies thinks you're somewhere else for a moment, allowing you to do cover-kills and the like.  I'm not talking about Splinter Cell stealth or even ME2: Arrival (scripted) stealth.

You're probably right regarding party AI I figure Miranda will still ruin every stealth approach I do. But with regards to if we're out of sight we're out of their minds I never liked that. I can see that with the infiltrator and their cloak but only if it's used before they see her if they see her put it on perhapse they should freeze for a moment and start looking for her.

For all other classes getting behind a downed pillar shooting then simply crawling to the other end shouldn't stop the enemy from knowing where you are and continuing to try to kill you. A way around it would be use the flash bang grenades to blind them run to another spot and when they come out of it they'll try to visually locate you so you could at that point potentially stealth kill a guy or two in the confusion.

[lazuli]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

You're probably right regarding party AI I figure Miranda will still ruin every stealth approach I do. But with regards to if we're out of sight we're out of their minds I never liked that. I can see that with the infiltrator and their cloak but only if it's used before they see her if they see her put it on perhapse they should freeze for a moment and start looking for her.

For all other classes getting behind a downed pillar shooting then simply crawling to the other end shouldn't stop the enemy from knowing where you are and continuing to try to kill you. A way around it would be use the flash bang grenades to blind them run to another spot and when they come out of it they'll try to visually locate you so you could at that point potentially stealth kill a guy or two in the confusion.

Yeah, it shouldn't be as simple as I described, because then it would be easily abused.  I still think it should be based on line of sight.  Maybe it isn't enough to shoot, move, and then be invisible.  Perhaps enemies that are bunkering down on cover themselves won't know where you moved (they're not looking, after all), but enemies that are up and firing at you will see you sliding along.  This would be more or less what bots exhibit in Gears of War 2.

I'm curious to see how Bioware handles stealth, though, as it was far from perfect in ME2.  It was obnoxious dropping out of Tactical Cloak to have every enemy on the field suddenly target you.

Modifié par lazuli, 30 août 2011 - 04:26 .

[Luigitornado]

azerSheppard wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

"Silverman is just doing his job."

Really, the only skill you need to sell things, is the skill of marketing, you don't need to know the product, just how to entice people.

Again. Wrong.

Marketing major perhaps? No?
A "hustler" could get you to buy something he picked up just a minute ago, with the right skills. Many door to door salesmen are succesful due to technique rather than the knowledge about the product, or even it's quality.

Welcome to the real world.

That's not marketing...well it may be a small less important part of it. What you are describing is personal selling, and it is not as affective as you are making it sound. Sure, there are some persuasion tools that can be used to increase sales by not directly sharing knowledge about the product, but consumers are more savvy than you think.

Do NOT confuse assume personal selling = marketing as a whole. Marketing is indeed the act of satisfying consumer's needs and wants. You can not do that without targeting, which can't be done without knowing the product.

Silverman is over simplifying his communication style to sell ME3 to an audience whom may not little about Mass Effect. That's all.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 30 août 2011 - 04:34 .

[The Spamming Troll]

lazuli wrote...

I think we'll know more when the Infiltrator is revealed. That said, there was a video at E3 showing limited stealth. Soldier Shepard on Sur'Kesh crept along cover, flanked a Cerberus trooper, and shanked him.

I'm not expecting revolutionary stealth mechanics. This isn't Splinter Cell. It would be nice to see it improved over ME2, though.

i know what vid your refering too and i wonder if i could have accomplished that same thing, without entering cover, just walking up behind him and putting a shiv in his kidney.

is that stealth, or just an enemy bioware put in the game that never looks behind them? im asumming youll end up killing that enemy the same way on every playthrough.

also makes me wonder about the whole "levels being bigger" thing too. i dont see any differnece in ME3s level design then i saw in ME2. im prolly going to be more dissapointed in what bioware is telling me to expect in ME3, then what my initial impresions were.

[Bozorgmehr 2.0]

Kel_Sjet wrote...

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

The only way to play Mass Effect is the same way it's been since the first game, run 'n gun. Mind you that taking cover when necessary doesn't make it a stealth game, and pulling up the power/weapon wheel to select something outside of your RB or LB buttons doesn't constitute a tactical game.

You've just confirmed you've no idea what tactics are. Are you seriously claiming 'tactics' are non-existent in modern day warfare?

You've just confirmed you're wrong. Where did that poster, anywhere, mention anything or even hint at anything to do with modern day warfare? Let us hope you aren't presuming that just because 'cover' exists in ME and 'cover' exists in modern day warfare, that the two things are even faintly similar in any way. Let us hope that you aren't trying to say that ME serves as a good simulator for actual combat.

You clearly missed the point and also confirmed you don't have the slightest idea what tactics (and a straw man) are. Your response is hilarious - first the RB button is considered "tactical" and you add cover to the list. LOL - next time I'm pissing against hiding behind a tree I'll feel like a master tactician

Kel_Sjet wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
I can only assume they're using this type of marketing to copy Deus Ex Human Revolutions multipath combat.

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...
Deus Ex copy-pasted Splinter Cell's stealth system, so it's pretty ridiculous to proclaim DE is something revolutionary. In fact, DE and ME have a lot in common in the sense that they are both games that try to connect and intergrate different genres / gameplay modes into one game.

Deus Ex was released a full 2 years+ before Splinter Cell. Claiming that DE copied Splinter Cell is downright preposterous.
Deus Ex is considered a seminal game in gaming history precisely because it was the first successful merger of the FPS and RPG genres. It was the first game that didn't just propose the illusion of choice, but actually deliver on giving the player real choice as well.
Its easy to try and deny that by just saying "NO", but again, you would be wrong. Deus Ex is a masterpiece of gaming history.

The way how the stealth system in Deus Ex HR works is exactly like Splinter Cell Conviction. It's not about stealth an sich, it's about how the system works. DEHR did copy paste the SCC's stealth system - which is a good thing b/c it's a pretty good system, and I would like BW to take a good look to see if they can use something like that to add some sort of stealth to ME3.

What does this have to do with having multiple ways to approach combat anyway? For all I know, that's what we are discussing here. Your and my view regarding DE are irrelevant. The OP claims that ME does not have multiple ways to play - which is totally wrong. Both games offer choice, but in different ways - which was my point btw.

And this is the crux of the issue.

I have read a lot of your posting history and I think your biggest problem, Bozorgmehr, is that you are so zealous in your belief that ME is the 'perfect game' that you end up doing shoddy analysis and being intellectually lazy about everything else.

The day you stop interpreting every criticism or point being made about ME and another game in a negative light, and stop thinking that everything is an attack on "your precious", will be the day, imho, where you start making much more accurate points and contributing much much more to the conversation.

After all, zealots get really irritating, very quickly.

I have no idea which post(s) you are referring to, but I can be clear about the rest. ME is not a perfect game, in fact there is a lot about it that I don't like. Maybe it's hard for someone like you to understand, but things are a little more complicated than the "you're either with me, or you are against me" BS.

I think it is pointless to discuss this further. You already labeled me a zealot which only proves you know nothing about me at all. You also haven't added any sensible argument to the discussion. You've only showed your own adoration of Deus Ex and assume I don't like that game at all.

To be clear, I think DE is the best game I've played this year (though the Witcher 2 makes it a hard choice and I haven't finished DE yet). It's an innovative game with lots of gameplay option which is awesome. However, that does not make it the Holy Grail of gaming, nor does it reduces ME to a piece of junk in which the player has no choice or options available - because that's what the OP is saying and that's completely besides the truth.

I also recommend to follow your own advice: The day you stop interpreting every criticism or point being made about
ME DE and another game in a negative light, and stop thinking that everything is an attack on "your precious", will be the day, imho, where you start making much more accurate points and contributing much much more to the conversation.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr 2.0, 30 août 2011 - 06:15 .

[Village_Idiot]

In before awesomebutton.

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i know what vid your refering too and i wonder if i could have accomplished that same thing, without entering cover, just walking up behind him and putting a shiv in his kidney.

is that stealth, or just an enemy bioware put in the game that never looks behind them? im asumming youll end up killing that enemy the same way on every playthrough.

Fights don't always play out the same way in ME2.  I don't imagine they will in ME3 either.  I don't know the details about cover-kills yet, so I can't really speak on them and how they relate to stealth or an enemy's awareness of Shepard.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Kel_Sjet wrote...


The day you stop interpreting every criticism or point being made about ME and another game in a negative light, and stop thinking that everything is an attack on "your precious", will be the day, imho, where you start making much more accurate points and contributing much much more to the conversation.


After all, zealots get really irritating, very quickly.

Excellent post. I was going to engage him but you addressed each point perfectly. I have no idea where he saw that I said tactics involve hitting the RB button, or hiding behind cover.:innocent: But I guess his ignorance about DX and Splinter Cell pretty much explains it all. 

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...


You clearly missed the point and also confirmed you don't have the slightest idea what tactics (and a straw man) are. Your response is hilarious - first the RB button is considered "tactical" and you add cover to the list. LOL - next time I'm pissing against hiding behind a tree I'll feel like a master tactician

And once again, where are you getting this from? You know you remind me a lot of Smudboy and Zulu_DFA, they used to see things that weren't there too. 

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...


What does this have to do with having multiple ways to approach combat anyway? For all I know, that's what we are discussing here. Your and my view regarding DE are irrelevant. The OP claims that ME does not have multiple ways to play - which is totally wrong. Both games offer choice, but in different ways - which was my point btw.

....However, that does not make it the Holy Grail of gaming, nor does it reduces ME to a piece of junk in which the player has no choice or options available - because that's what the OP is saying and that's completely besides the truth.....

I never claimed ME doesn't have multiple ways to play. Each playthrough has the ability to be completely different from the other. What I did say was that there aren't multiple ways to play combat. David Silverman is saying you can play in stealth, tactical, and run 'n gun "american cowboy" play styles, when in fact that isn't true. He claims that by calling up the power wheel, you're playing it in a tactical manner. That's what I said in the original post. That's what I'm saying again. You attacked that statement, so I'm assuming you believe that you're playing a tactical game by pulling up your power wheel. I guess you must also believe that by participating in a scripted "stealth" sequence you're playing the game in a stealth manner.

I welcome you to point out where I stated that DX was the holy grail of gaming, or that it reduced ME to a piece of junk where the player has no choice or options available. Once again, you are addressing points that were never brought up in the OP. Maybe you posted in the wrong thread?  Judging by your comment, it sounds like your a Bioware fanboy who can't stand the new kid on the block because he makes your precious Mass Effect seem inferior. No where in my post did I say that DX was better than Mass Effect. I simply said that there aren't multiple combat options like in DX, something that Silverman has been marketing. I guess you must think that Mass Effect is the holy grail of gaming based on your fanboyism?


-Polite

[sympathy4saren]

I don't believe anything that is marketed by them. I used to.

I was offended by the way we were told you play in stealth. Tactical....eh....there is squad positioning, which is nice, and squad commands, so that one is imo a little more debatable.

Hiding behind a box, reaching around and pushing the omniblade button to catch a baddie of guard isn't playing in stealth. Playing in stealth is having multiple avenues....maybe some secret....to an objective or area and having the opportunity to either sneak past everyone or take out everyone in that area without being noticed....or at least spotted directly, if a body happens to be found.

This is indeed real and genuine player choice....an ability to play completely differently than direct, face to face combat. Not saying you should just stealth through the game, or it should be easy....I'm saying it should exist, in a non-corridor environment.

[MrChowderClam]

Well for what it's worth, the gunfights in DX:HR aren't really THAT great. The game practically screams at you to go stealth unless you upgrade your dermal all the way.

IMO ME2's shooter mechanics were pretty good. Stealth combat is really lacking though, especially considering there is an entire class devoted to stealth that basically just devolves into *shoot people through a scope in slo-mo* :/. Personally, I wish you could stealth your way through the level and not have to fight any enemies. Although again, this doesn't work within the context of a squad-based shooter. Maybe it would on a solo mission like Arrival.

[lazuli]

sympathy4saren wrote...

I don't believe anything that is marketed by them. I used to.

I was offended by the way we were told you play in stealth. Tactical....eh....there is squad positioning, which is nice, and squad commands, so that one is imo a little more debatable.

Hiding behind a box, reaching around and pushing the omniblade button to catch a baddie of guard isn't playing in stealth. Playing in stealth is having multiple avenues....maybe some secret....to an objective or area and having the opportunity to either sneak past everyone or take out everyone in that area without being noticed....or at least spotted directly, if a body happens to be found.

This is indeed real and genuine player choice....an ability to play completely differently than direct, face to face combat. Not saying you should just stealth through the game, or it should be easy....I'm saying it should exist, in a non-corridor environment.

I would argue even stealth-lite, as you describe it, would count as stealth.  If you're expecting a game that already does so much to also feature top of the line stealth mechanics, a la Splinter Cell, then you're probably impossible to please.

There are differences between having realistic expectations and being a starstruck fanboy (believing BW can do no wrong).

[The Spamming Troll]

lazuli wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i know what vid your refering too and i wonder if i could have accomplished that same thing, without entering cover, just walking up behind him and putting a shiv in his kidney.

is that stealth, or just an enemy bioware put in the game that never looks behind them? im asumming youll end up killing that enemy the same way on every playthrough.

Fights don't always play out the same way in ME2.  I don't imagine they will in ME3 either.  I don't know the details about cover-kills yet, so I can't really speak on them and how they relate to stealth or an enemy's awareness of Shepard.

they sortof do tho. how many scripted encounters are there in ME2? just watch one of bozos vids. he knows what corner every enemy is going to pop out of. he knows EXACTLY what path every enemy walks, right in the middle of the linear coridor. he knows enemies in cover shoot 2 bursts of fire every 3 seconds. he KNOWS, he KNOWS, he KNOWS. by playthrough number 3, theres no such thing as random firefitghts. you pick the best little peice of cover to hide behind, and you do the same things youve done on every other previous playthrough.

changing classes will give some variety becasue you have a new skill set tho.

[sympathy4saren]

lazuli wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

I don't believe anything that is marketed by them. I used to.

I was offended by the way we were told you play in stealth. Tactical....eh....there is squad positioning, which is nice, and squad commands, so that one is imo a little more debatable.

Hiding behind a box, reaching around and pushing the omniblade button to catch a baddie of guard isn't playing in stealth. Playing in stealth is having multiple avenues....maybe some secret....to an objective or area and having the opportunity to either sneak past everyone or take out everyone in that area without being noticed....or at least spotted directly, if a body happens to be found.

This is indeed real and genuine player choice....an ability to play completely differently than direct, face to face combat. Not saying you should just stealth through the game, or it should be easy....I'm saying it should exist, in a non-corridor environment.

I would argue even stealth-lite, as you describe it, would count as stealth.  If you're expecting a game that already does so much to also feature top of the line stealth mechanics, a la Splinter Cell, then you're probably impossible to please.

There are differences between having realistic expectations and being a starstruck fanboy (believing BW can do no wrong).

You're right....more of stealth-lite, but I think that is a level that is viable to accomplish in this IP.

It can be done with better, open level design, appropriate mods like silencers and different weapons like swift injection toxin/biotic tranqs and overall more intelligent AI.

We are talking about more open environments, which im guessing many Halo and Battlefield fans like, that offers an optional avenue of gameplay in stealth and requires better, smarter AI. Count me in for that.

It doesn't mean corridors can't play a function....last time I checked, corridors are main routes anyways. It might be difficult to demand from a dev with a lot on their plate, but I know BioWare enjoys this type of feedback and I'm sure devs enjoy this much demand and expectation from them. I'm sure most like being pushed to the limit. Many great developers do. BioWare does, and so does Bethesda.

Some ideas, BioWare. Implement this style of battle and you give tremendous diversity in battle. Stealth can become a viable option. Many fans of Shooters loooove open areas, too. And everyone loves open levels with detail. This doesn't mean corridors have to be nonexistent in a level or there can't be sequences with it occuring in from time to time. Open battlefields also enable classes and attributes to stand on there own more, just because more mobility and maneuverability is necessary. Specific powers are more exposed.

Plus....and here's the kicker....if you can choose any race in the next ME game, and species had their own distinct attributes, bonuses and disadvantages.....fans could literally play as a stealthy Drell Assassin.

Here's to giving the Drell a 15% species bonus all stealth attributes. This gives each class, as well, more distinctiveness besides abilities in subconsciously depicting what type of class it is. Vanguard is always, undeniably, an 'in your face class'...they are that by obvious definition. Infiltrator is perfect for a stealth scenario....longer shield duration with longer recharge power time for stealth.

Then there are some that could be interesting stealth builds.

Modifié par sympathy4saren, 30 août 2011 - 11:23 .

[davidshooter]

I'm surprised Rainbow six Vegas 2 doesn't come up more often, it had squad based combat that Bioware could learn a lot from. I posted this in another thread but I just finished a another playthrough of Rainbow and it is just so far ahead of ME in squad based combat.

You can throw a grenade into a level and alert everyone and have a huge shoot out.
You can put a silencer on your gun and strategically pick off enemies without other enemies becoming aware.
You always have multiple ways into a level and routes through the level.
The squad can be set to be aggressive or passive (not perfect but much better than ME2 squad control)
You can plant C4, use grenades, smoke, thermal vision, night vision.
You decide if you want to carry grenades, flashbangs, C4, smoke and can change at the beginning of any level.
You can breach into rooms through doorways in a variety of ways.
You can snake cam under doors to see enemy positions and make attack plans.
You can mod guns with a variety of scopes, ammo clips etc.
There are a wide variety of SMGs, Assault Rifles, Shotguns, Pistols and sniper rifles - you decide what you want to carry.
Ammo is finite and needs to be managed but there is no unrealistic dropping of clips.
You can pick up enemy guns just like real life combat.
You have to actually get to fallen squadmates to revive them or order another squadmate to the position which can create very tactical gameplay as you try to cover them.
After multiple playthroughs the AI will still surprise you.
The banter between yourself and the squad in combat is through radios, and suonds both realistic and professional.
A lone wolf terror hunt on realistic remains hard (if you don't use exploits) even after many playthroughs of a given map.

The graphics aren't very good and the story sucks but the combat appears to still be way ahead of ME3 based on what we've seen so far in terms of variability of battle tactics and openess of levels.

Modifié par davidshooter, 31 août 2011 - 01:42 .

[Il Divo]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

So in closing, do any of you believe the combat hype we've been hearing, given the actual visual representation of it that we've seen so far?

-Polite

I usually take anything marketing says with a rather large helping of salt. Aside from a few melee executions, we have only seen run and gun gameplay. Mass Effect's level design is completely different from that which we've seen in Deus Ex and doesn't really feature the "multiple play styles" well. Mass Effect conflicts are (typically) limited to combat and occasionally dialogue.

I personally place a very low value on marketing, but I do have to say that what I saw from Human Revolution's marketing style was far superior than Mass Effect 3's so far. This could always change down the line.  

[Brenon Holmes]

Ah... ME3 isn't a stealth game.

There are some small elements of "stealth" but generally they're going to be staged - so when appropriate, enemies might be doing "something" (generally something appropriate to the context and setting) when you arrive... you'd have a small amount of time in order to capitalize on the situation... but that's about the extent of it.

Generally, you won't be seeing any Deus Ex style sneaking around and snapping necks... that's not really what the ME combat experience is about.

What you *will* be seeing is a fair amount of variability in a given fight... the situations tend to be a lot more dynamic... so the same fight almost always plays out differently, which I find to be quite a bit of fun. :happy:

Modifié par Brenon Holmes, 31 août 2011 - 04:50 .

[Dave of Canada]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Generally, you won't be seeing any Deus Ex style sneaking around and snapping necks... that's not really what the ME combat experience is about.

No Thane doing what he does best? 

[Brenon Holmes]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Generally, you won't be seeing any Deus Ex style sneaking around and snapping necks... that's not really what the ME combat experience is about.

No Thane doing what he does best? 

What Thane does in his personal time is his business... 

[lazuli]

Do enemies automatically snap to attention when Infiltrator Shepard drops out of Cloak like in ME2?

[Jayce]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Ah... ME3 isn't a stealth game.

There are some small elements of "stealth" but generally they're going to be staged - so when appropriate, enemies might be doing "something" (generally something appropriate to the context and setting) when you arrive... you'd have a small amount of time in order to capitalize on the situation... but that's about the extent of it.

Generally, you won't be seeing any Deus Ex style sneaking around and snapping necks... that's not really what the ME combat experience is about.

What you *will* be seeing is a fair amount of variability in a given fight... the situations tend to be a lot more dynamic... so the same fight almost always plays out differently, which I find to be quite a bit of fun. :happy:

As someone whose Infiltrator stealthed her way past the Batarian guards in Arrival, all I can say is:
 
Nyah nyah, nyah-nyah nyah, Brenon!

[MrChowderClam]

lazuli wrote...

Do enemies automatically snap to attention when Infiltrator Shepard drops out of Cloak like in ME2?

Yeah, it was annoying on Arrival. I tried cloaking to sneak past guards, but as soon as I did, the guards snapped out of their idle state :/