135 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaron Oberyn]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Do enemies automatically snap to attention when Infiltrator Shepard drops out of Cloak like in ME2?

It depends on if he's in sight or not, there are vision cones... and enemies remember where they think you were. So if you pop in out of their vision cone, or behind an object of some sort - you have a great flanking opportunity... :happy:

Jayce F wrote...

As someone whose Infiltrator stealthed her way past the Batarian guards in Arrival, all I can say is:
 
Nyah nyah, nyah-nyah nyah, Brenon!

They can hear you too though! So if you get too close... trouble!

I recall doing exactly that, on Kasumi's mission to be specific, and after cloaking, running behind the enemy, and taking cover behind a crate, they turned around as soon as my cloak ran out. But perhaps that was a glitch or something if you guys have vision cones. Infiltrator used to be my favorite class until I felt that the cloaking didn't do me much good other than getting too close.

-Polite

[lazuli]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I recall doing exactly that, on Kasumi's mission to be specific, and after cloaking, running behind the enemy, and taking cover behind a crate, they turned around as soon as my cloak ran out. But perhaps that was a glitch or something if you guys have vision cones. Infiltrator used to be my favorite class until I felt that the cloaking didn't do me much good other than getting too close.

-Polite

He was talking about ME3.  I don't think it functions that way in ME2, as enemies automatically know where Infiltrator Shepard is when she drops out of Cloak.

Even with ME2's wonky stealth mechanics, the Infiltrator has a lot to gain by getting into close combat.  It's a shame most players don't use Cloak for flanking, but rather as a poor man's Adrenaline Rush.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Oh, I was under the impression he was talking about ME2. That makes sense then.

-Polite

[Thrombin]

I disagree with the original post. I don't quite understand why ME1 and ME2 should be proof that David Silverman's statement that you can approach ME3 combat in three ways must be wrong. ME3 combat is ME3 combat. What happened in ME1 and ME2 only proves stuff about ME1 and ME2.

I think the main reason they show run and gun as a distinct style as opposed to pausing the game and using the Power Wheel is because some shooter fans are used to that style of gameplay and might feel that the power wheel would spoil the immersive experience. Others, on the other hand like to have more tactical control. I tend to pause the game almost as a reflex every few seconds. In ME2 I used it to scan the battlefield, see where everyone is, choose all three powers at once, let go, shoot for a bit, pause it again... Completely different experience and probably one that many people would hate.

I was quite concerned after the E3 demo because they performed the whole thing without bringing up the power wheel once. I was worried I might be forced the play like that.

As for the stealth stuff. As we've heard, they've changed things in ME3. Field of view combined with cover rolls now enable you to move around the battlefield without being spotted and mechanics have been added to capitalize on that. It's a different way to play than have been in either of the previous games and it's very different from just straight forward cover, aim, shoot, kill.

So, as far as I can see, Silverman is entirely correct that there are three types of gameplay available to suit three different tastes. I haven't seen Deus Ex so I have no idea whether anything has been copied from it or not but that strikes me as entirely besides the point. I don't agree with the OP at all.

Regards

Julian

Modifié par Thrombin, 31 août 2011 - 04:34 .

[Dunmer of Redoran]

For Vanguards:

1. Biotic charge
2. Backwards biotic charge

[cachx]

I was imagining something akin to Uncharted 2, where stealth is extremely situational and there is not really much of a choice.
I mean, the game is still a squad based shooter. I like the improved melee, but I would rather they focus on the squad part.

[lazuli]

DaftArbiter wrote...

For Vanguards:

1. Biotic charge
2. Backwards biotic charge

Lol.

I'm hoping you intended #2 not to be an escape from combat, but rather a way for the more derp-inclined Vanguard to get into combat.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Thrombin wrote...

I disagree with the original post. I don't quite understand why ME1 and ME2 should be proof that David Silverman's statement that you can approach ME3 combat in three ways must be wrong. ME3 combat is ME3 combat. What happened in ME1 and ME2 only proves stuff about ME1 and ME2.

I think the main reason they show run and gun as a distinct style as opposed to pausing the game and using the Power Wheel is because some shooter fans are used to that style of gameplay and might feel that the power wheel would spoil the immersive experience. Others, on the other hand like to have more tactical control. I tend to pause the game almost as a reflex every few seconds. In ME2 I used it to scan the battlefield, see where everyone is, choose all three powers at once, let go, shoot for a bit, pause it again... Completely different experience and probably one that many people would hate.

I was quite concerned after the E3 demo because they performed the whole thing without bringing up the power wheel once. I was worried I might be forced the play like that.

As for the stealth stuff. As we've heard, they've changed things in ME3. Field of view combined with cover rolls now enable you to move around the battlefield without being spotted and mechanics have been added to capitalize on that. It's a different way to play than have been in either of the previous games and it's very different from just straight forward cover, aim, shoot, kill.

So, as far as I can see, Silverman is entirely correct that there are three types of gameplay available to suit three different tastes. I haven't seen Deus Ex so I have no idea whether anything has been copied from it or not but that strikes me as entirely besides the point. I don't agree with the OP at all.

Regards

Julian

First, I never stated that they copied the actual combat mechanics from DX. I said the marketing of playing combat in three different ways. Deus Ex just released a game where the marketng included different combat approaches. Second, it doesn't matter if you agree with me or not. My statement is based on a fact, a simple fact that there aren't three ways to approach combat as David Silverman is saying. There is no "you can play stealth, tactical, or run and gun", there's only run and gun. Silverman says otherwise based on a scripted stealth sequence, and by calling up the power wheel. I'm sorry but these two features do not constitute playing the game in a stealth or tactical manner. If you think so, then sorry to inform you that you've had a bad sampling of tactical or stealth game mechanics. I have no problem with the combat from ME. I think it's fine the way it is. However I don't understand how he can market something that's clearly not there.


-Polite

[Brenon Holmes]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Is there a chance that we might be able to go up against enemy turret emplacements?

Like...a soldier manning a gun turret? I always thought those were lacking in Mass Effect.

 (yes)

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Another question, then:

Will the Reapers have omniblades of their own? 

Just saying... shooting through skyscrapers and slashing gunships seems like a waste of ammo.

No omniblades, but they do have a range of melees... some of which are pretty scary.

Izhalezan wrote...

Strong melee wouldn't be too bad if every now and then you ran into a guy who could melee back, thus making the player cautious in deciding if hes just gonna run in and have stabbity time or not.

Some enemies have a slower timing of their melee attacks, so you can beat them in a straight up melee challenge... others not so much. So you'll have to experiment a bit before you can really figure out which ones you can go toe to toe with.

Need to run to a meeting now, but I'll try to get in and answer some more stuff later (if I can). :happy:

Modifié par Brenon Holmes, 31 août 2011 - 06:00 .

[Il Divo]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Is there a chance that we might be able to go up against enemy turret emplacements?

Like...a soldier manning a gun turret? I always thought those were lacking in Mass Effect.

So that's a yes?

[TMA LIVE]

I'm more of hoping for a quick turn to be added. Too many times in ME2, you'd have enemies suddenly attack from behind, and the only way to get to them fast enough was to use the squad menu.

[Brenon Holmes]

Edited my post above

[Dunmer of Redoran]

lazuli wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

For Vanguards:

1. Biotic charge
2. Backwards biotic charge

Lol.

I'm hoping you intended #2 not to be an escape from combat, but rather a way for the more derp-inclined Vanguard to get into combat.

Of course, I'm referring to the second. Running from a fight wouldn't be much of a way to approach combat, now would it?

That's really what discourages me from picking a Vanguard. Charging seems fun to do now and then but I can't base playing a game off of that and a few biotics. I prefer the weapons variation that being a soldier affords.

[100k]

Oh, here's something I always wondered. Will we be able to carry guns within the same class in a different way? For instance, noticed that the Locust SMG has a hand grip for extra accuracy -- while the Tempest doesn't. Will that mean that Shepard and Co will carry certain weapons some ways, and othe weapons in a different fashion?

Modifié par 100k, 31 août 2011 - 06:28 .

[Thy King]

@ Brenon Holmes:
If i may be so bold to ask 2 small questions:
Are the high heels finaly going to disappear?
And are the squadmates going to have proper armor again, instead of a boob-strap or spendex suit?

I ask, because my biggest gripe about ME2 was the rediculousness of the clothing of the Normandy-'babes' going into battle. I found it very interesting that only the men had armor, and other combat clothing, and the woman ran in high heels and cat-suits.

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

Thy King wrote...

@ Brenon Holmes:
If i may be so bold to ask 2 small questions:
Are the high heels finaly going to disappear?
And are the squadmates going to have proper armor again, instead of a boob-strap or spendex suit?

I ask, because my biggest gripe about ME2 was the rediculousness of the clothing of the Normandy-'babes' going into battle. I found it very interesting that only the men had armor, and other combat clothing, and the woman ran in high heels and cat-suits.

I do agree with you about that, I remember some people commenting on the issue of some squad mates having Biotic barriers so not needing armour - obviously they don't know the phrase 'Belt and Braces'.

Though it could be a new Cerberus initiative - Distract and Conquer!

[Thrombin]

PoliteAssasin wrote...
First, I never stated that they copied the actual combat mechanics from DX. I said the marketing of playing combat in three different ways. Deus Ex just released a game where the marketng included different combat approaches.

Well, if you read my post again I think you'll find that what I said doesn't conflict with anything you just said above. I don't mention combat mechanics either,  in relation to Deus Ex.

Second, it doesn't matter if you agree with me or not. My statement is based on a fact, a simple fact that there aren't three ways to approach combat as David Silverman is saying.

The simple fact is that there are three ways. Very self-evidently there are three ways which have all been explicitly demonstrated in front of my very eyes.

There is no "you can play stealth, tactical, or run and gun", there's only run and gun. Silverman says otherwise based on a scripted stealth sequence, and by calling up the power wheel. I'm sorry but these two features do not constitute playing the game in a stealth or tactical manner. If you think so, then sorry to inform you that you've had a bad sampling of tactical or stealth game mechanics. I have no problem with the combat from ME. I think it's fine the way it is. However I don't understand how he can market something that's clearly not there.

You're just arguing irrelevant naming conventions. Whether or not what David calls stealth or tactical play corresponds to what you believe these terms should mean is beside the point. The point is, they are different styles of play and that's all that's being claimed. What difference does it make what other games do?

Regards

Julian

[Jaron Oberyn]

So based on what your saying, if you're running and gunning on the 360 with only 2 buttons to map your powers to, and pull up the power wheel since you're unable to access all powers on the console versions without it, then you're playing the game tactically. Silverman says you can choose which way you want to play Mass Effect 3, but if the only way to play tactically is by pulling up the power wheel, which is also the only way to select the remaining powers/abilities that aren't mapped to the controller, how is that choosing how you want to play the game? It's mandatory, not optional. You're right, there are different styles of play, but not in combat preferences. There is somewhat of a different style depending on which class you choose, but even with the infiltrator class there are no authentic stealth situations. If you're playing on a harder difficulty, and a squadmate that you desperately need alive has died, and you pull up the power wheel to select Unity, that makes the combat sequence in which you are participating tactical? Do you honestly believe that?


-Polite

[Thrombin]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

So based on what your saying, if you're running and gunning on the 360 with only 2 buttons to map your powers to, and pull up the power wheel since you're unable to access all powers on the console versions without it, then you're playing the game tactically. Silverman says you can choose which way you want to play Mass Effect 3, but if the only way to play tactically is by pulling up the power wheel, which is also the only way to select the remaining powers/abilities that aren't mapped to the controller, how is that choosing how you want to play the game? It's mandatory, not optional. You're right, there are different styles of play, but not in combat preferences. There is somewhat of a different style depending on which class you choose, but even with the infiltrator class there are no authentic stealth situations. If you're playing on a harder difficulty, and a squadmate that you desperately need alive has died, and you pull up the power wheel to select Unity, that makes the combat sequence in which you are participating tactical? Do you honestly believe that?


-Polite

It's not relevant to my point whether bringing up the Power Wheel is "tactical". What is relevant is whether it's a different style. I can guarantee you that my style of play is nothing whatsoever like the run and gun style demonstrated at E3 or stated as run and gun at the end of the more recent demos.  My style is not, real time. You can call it tactical or not call it tactical but it is absolutely not the style of combat that we're seeing most of the time in these demos.

I come from a long history of RPG games where I like to choose what everyone does each turn, deliberate over the best use of powers and party members and then release the button to let the game continue until the next turn when the game stops again. If you don't think that's a different style of combat to what we're seeing then you haven't watched me play!

I can also see that there is a way to play the game in such a way that you are trying to move close to opponents to use melee and that you can do this by trying to avoid being seen and by rolling from cover to cover to avoid being seen. Personally I think the term "Stealth" fits that fine but, again, it's irrelevant what you call it. It is still, clearly, a different way to play than just shooting everything in sight and making no attempt to not be seen.

The only thing required for Silverman to be stating the truth about ME3 is for there to be different ways to approach combat. I can guarantee you, without a shadow of a doubt, that someone who leans on the Power Wheel as much as I do and someone who never likes to bring it up unless he absolutely has to, is using two completely different approaches to combat. I can also guarantee that some people will prefer my way and some will prefer the other way. And that is why Silverman has to point out that both ways are available.

Regards

Julian

[TheZyzyva]

I'm going to make a new thread for Brenon Holmes questions so the people in this thread can have their discussion. I'll link when I get it set up.

Aaaand.... here it is.

Modifié par TheZyzyva, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[Cortyman]

I like the idea of a 3 hit combo, maybe its too late to ask for this but it would be good if it was not the same 3 hits every time as that looks robotic. I think it would be good if say the third finishing hit was random so it could be a kick, a punch or a wip with the pistol/rifle

[Annihilator27]

[quote]Brenon Holmes wrote...

[quote]Someone With Mass wrote...

Is there a chance that we might be able to go up against enemy turret emplacements?

Like...a soldier manning a gun turret? I always thought those were lacking in Mass Effect.[/quote]

 (yes)

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Another question, then:

Will the Reapers have omniblades of their own? 

Just saying... shooting through skyscrapers and slashing gunships seems like a waste of ammo.


No omniblades, but they do have a range of melees... some of which are pretty scary.

[/quote]

Do they crush ships with their tentacles? Or more ramming. Cuz Sovereign was awesome when he rammed that ship. He just did not give a ****

Modifié par annihilator27, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:50 .

[sympathy4saren]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Babli wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
So in closing, do any of you believe the combat hype we've been hearing, given the actual visual representation of it that we've seen so far?

I dont believe anything David Silverman says.

Smart man.

I don't belive and don't expect true multiple paths. From all the gameply demos I've seen, there wasn't evena hint of it.

Exactly. Not one hint whatsoever. Just the linear stuff...and at least one corny rail gun scene against a Reaper. Think for a second....what purpose whatsoever does a machine gun have against a Reaper?

I enjoyed openness in ME1 to give a balance and breather from the linear parts. The two worked well together.

I also don't see why direct stealth can't be a viable gameplay option. It's not a stealth game, but isn't as much hiding from the Reapers and their Indoctrinated (and the heretic Geth...obviously cannot be Indoctrinated) whenever possible smart? Isn't the Normandy a.....stealth ship?

If an enemy is just purposely put in a position for a stealth kill, what's the purpose other than its gravy easy. Will it even be a playable sequence...I suspect more Renegade options.

I think more than a few fans are disappointed they have to straight up shoot in corridors...and that we are forced to have the omniblade. Please, marketing....don't try to be tricky with us by just saying stuff hoping we will just buy into it.

I do like the fact that enemy AI seems much more intelligent.

[Reptillius]

For All your argueing and focus on the power wheel. Your ignoring several other factors that when combined actually can let you play in a tactical form which will actually be enhanced somewhat in ME3.

So let's take some of these things that are true even in ME2 shall we?

First of all. You do have some ability to order your team-mates around the battlefield. Granted this can be annoying because of the AI but this is part of making a game tactical.

You also have the ability to control when and where and on who not just you, but your squad uses their powers. That also adds to the ability to play in a tactical manner.

In ME3 it's also been announced that at least with the kinect you can have some control on just who or what your squad mates fire at with their conventional weapons.

Through these options and the power wheel's ability to pause things so you can look over the battlefield. This gives you the ability to play Tactically. Whether you want to see it that way or not. That is always your choice. Doesn't mean it isn't true.

As for Stealth. Whether you consider Stealth only by pure deep stealth game means or not. Doesn't mean that there isn't capability for stealth in the new game. As Brenon has already stated there is the ability to use cover to move from where the enemy last saw you or to avoid potentially being seen by enemies until your close enough to deliver personal hits or reach an advantageous position. That is still stealth.

You don't need to have those sometimes annoying stealth through the whole level type missions to be using stealth. Deep stealth while it works in some games is not really fitting for ME and I don't really want to see it. The occasional, and I do mean occasional, mission or sequence where I can sneak around part of a level isn't necessarily bad. Arrival polished up and made a bit more practical for example. There were plenty of ways to sneak through a lot of the first half of that DLC if you wanted to... But the kind of game ME is... You should also have to fight your enemies as well. Your not exactly saving yourself or anybody else any grief lore wise by leaving them alive afterall.

[sympathy4saren]

Reptillius wrote...

For All your argueing and focus on the power wheel. Your ignoring several other factors that when combined actually can let you play in a tactical form which will actually be enhanced somewhat in ME3.

So let's take some of these things that are true even in ME2 shall we?

First of all. You do have some ability to order your team-mates around the battlefield. Granted this can be annoying because of the AI but this is part of making a game tactical.

You also have the ability to control when and where and on who not just you, but your squad uses their powers. That also adds to the ability to play in a tactical manner.

In ME3 it's also been announced that at least with the kinect you can have some control on just who or what your squad mates fire at with their conventional weapons.

Through these options and the power wheel's ability to pause things so you can look over the battlefield. This gives you the ability to play Tactically. Whether you want to see it that way or not. That is always your choice. Doesn't mean it isn't true.

As for Stealth. Whether you consider Stealth only by pure deep stealth game means or not. Doesn't mean that there isn't capability for stealth in the new game. As Brenon has already stated there is the ability to use cover to move from where the enemy last saw you or to avoid potentially being seen by enemies until your close enough to deliver personal hits or reach an advantageous position. That is still stealth.

You don't need to have those sometimes annoying stealth through the whole level type missions to be using stealth. Deep stealth while it works in some games is not really fitting for ME and I don't really want to see it. The occasional, and I do mean occasional, mission or sequence where I can sneak around part of a level isn't necessarily bad. Arrival polished up and made a bit more practical for example. There were plenty of ways to sneak through a lot of the first half of that DLC if you wanted to... But the kind of game ME is... You should also have to fight your enemies as well. Your not exactly saving yourself or anybody else any grief lore wise by leaving them alive afterall.

Stealth as described would and should be an optional playstyle. Run and gun, or stealth, or anywhere in between. Non-combat is up to the player, or should be, especially in an rpg. Stealth shouldn't always be an option....some situations make stealth impossible. But i would really just settle for non-corridor combat, to be honest. I agree that the tactics are fine...it was never a personal assertion of mine specifically...the power well is great and squad commands are, too. Like you mentioned, hopefully squad AI is also improved.

I'm not sure nothing wouldn't work for ME. It's about competing visions of the game between fans, elements that are agreeable and disagreeable based upon personal taste, all for what they consider the benefit of the game. Non-mandatory gameplay choice is always beneficial to the gamer and truly reaches wide audiences and genre groups.