896 réponses à ce sujet

[SkittlesKat96]

I think its also a bit of a problem with the writing too (obviously.)

I get that everyone knew what they were going into when doing the suicide mission but still, they could have done a better job at trying to make the player feel impacted, and it doesn't even have to be melodramatic at all if they do it right.

Also I agree with what Zyzvyva said. I remember seeing a thread asking what people wanted the ending of ME 3 to be like ideally and one of the main sort of answer there was something like

'They defeat the Reapers triumphantly and cheer and celebrate like in a big war movie, they commemorate the dead and there is a brief moment of sadness then Shepard makes a speech and is given a statue and medal in front of a massive cheering crowd with all his squad mates from Mass Effect 1 and 2 around, but not ME 3 because I hate James Vega and the new ME 3 squad mates, they aren't true Normandy crew.

Shepard then has his love interest in his arms in front of the crowd and he kisses her and smiles and everyone cheers and he goes to live on a peaceful planet without any regrets or trauma or after effects and he has children.'

A bit of an exaggeration but that is still the gist of what a lot of people were saying.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 31 août 2011 - 07:19 .

[TheZyzyva]

I think the biggest problem with the suicide mission, besides the utter lack of grievance, is that we know there's a part 3 to this story. Why willingly accept the death of a character when we know their story isn't complete yet. In 3 we're going to get closure, if that closure comes from death, I'll accept that. I just didn't want any of my squad dying in 2 before I know how their story ends. It was more than just the lack of drama their death created.

[GodWood]

mopotter wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Izhalezan wrote...
The problem with some characters dying no matter what is people will start to go "Why should I care about Character? it dies no matter what, shouldn't even bother upgrading em"

How is real life any different?

I don't play video games to get the sad and depressing real life emotion.  Parents - dead.  Grandparents - dead.  Friends some dead.  New born niece - dead.  I know what it feels like to have someone you care about die.

And I'm completely different

When I'm miserable the last thing I want to see is the 'awesome protaganist' save the day, get the girl and live happily ever after.

All that results in is me wanting to murder the protaganist.

[Enmystic]

GodWood wrote...

mopotter wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Izhalezan wrote...
The problem with some characters dying no matter what is people will start to go "Why should I care about Character? it dies no matter what, shouldn't even bother upgrading em"

How is real life any different?

I don't play video games to get the sad and depressing real life emotion.  Parents - dead.  Grandparents - dead.  Friends some dead.  New born niece - dead.  I know what it feels like to have someone you care about die.

And I'm completely different

When I'm miserable the last thing I want to see is the 'awesome protaganist' save the day, get the girl and live happily ever after.

All that results in is me wanting to murder the protaganist.

So you're against escapism?

[TheZyzyva]

Enmystic wrote...
*snip*

So you're against escapism?

No, sometimes people don't like being reminded that we aren't awesome heroes. Sometimes watching those heroes deal with real issues helps remind us that nothing's perfect, and that we'll get by just fine as well. Sometimes it's nice to see people in the same boat as us, even if they are just fictional.
Just saiyan.

Modifié par TheZyzyva, 31 août 2011 - 08:04 .

[Zu Long]

TheZyzyva wrote...

Look, there's a big issue that has only been mentioned once I think, by Ghost Warrior (love the sig by the way), and that is that if the perfect ending is saving everyone, no sacrifices, as gamers we'll feel like we failed if we don't get that. We don't care that we can lose people if we want for drama, because we want to succede. But if that success is a golden ending, then we'll feel cheated because it didn't feel like a good story. It's a lose lose for us, and that's bull. We want a good game and a good story. There needs to be drama for there to be a story, otherwise I'd be playing Duke Nukem. Does the drama have to come from deaths? No, but it has to come from somewhere. Things like fear, sadness, anger all create drama, not bad***ery, one liners, and shots on the citadel. Sure, those things have their place, but a good story needs more than that.

So without any meaningful deaths, how those of you advocating a "sunshine and bunnies" ending, as it's being called, suggest Bioware incorporate drama? By having me fail? That doesn't make me connect to Shep, that makes me feel like an idiot. That doesn't make me want to play.

Look, I'm not trying to bash you guys and what you want, just try to understand where other people are coming from. Overall, I feel like having a "perfect" ending would hurt the game as a whole. I just don't feel as though a war should be won with no sacrifices, it would cheapen the whole story.

Sorry for the wall, I'm just trying to be as clear as possible and actually promote an intelligent conversation. It's against the SOP I know, but I'm a rebel.

Well, as one of those who would like the option for "flawless victory," as I prefer to think of it, I'll try to answer your question.

Basically, what I want is the same as what you want. I want to succeed. I'm not playing just to lose. As you point out, failing is not fun. This is where our viewpoints diverge:

Your solution is to preserve drama by having the plot mandate death for close party members, thus absolving you of responsibility for having "lost" that character. This allows you to feel that you have "won"- you succeeded to the best of your ability within the confines of the game.

For those of us on MY side, we do NOT feel we have "won" when a valued team member is force-killed by the plot. Rather we feel have "lost" and more than that, that the possibility of winning at all was entirely removed before we started playing. In short, we feel cheated of our ability to succeed.

This divergence, in my opinion, comes from a difference of expectation and of feelings of personal responsibility. From what you've said, you are entering the game with the expectation that this is war, and that people die. If your people die, well, realistically those are the fortunes of war.

I enter the game with a different mindset. The moment I pick up that controller, I AM Commander Shepard. This is MY team. They are MY responsibility. Bioware doesn't get to decide who lives and dies, I DO. Reality need not apply.

Does that help explain the difference?

[TheZyzyva]

Zu Long wrote...

*BigSnip*
Does that help explain the difference?

Yeah, deffinitely. I guess it just depends how perfect the "perfect" ending is. I'm not against the whole squad making it, but at what cost? I just don't want the ending to be shots on the citadel, bro-ing it up with Garrus and co. about how easy the reapers were to defeat. I really don't think that's the ending anyone wants, but from the attitudes of some here it's hard to tell. ME has been a dramatic story from the start, and I want and trust Bioware to finish it as such.

Now I get the detraction a forced decision like Virmire has on the game and on replayability, but I know the first time I saw it, even knowing about it before-hand and had already picked Ash to die because I didn't like her, I was moved by how Shep reacted to having to make that choice. The same reaction that was missing on the SM which made those deaths pointless.

And then there are some deaths out there in various media that have a nice impact regardless of how many times I see them. Things like Spike at the end of Cowboy Bebop, Wolfwood during Trigun, Lenny in Of Mice And Men, Maximus at the end of Gladiator, ect.

Anyways, regardless of the ending, I trust Bioware to get the job done right. And I bet that as long as it's done right, even those of you hoping for the "flawless victory" won't bemoan a couple deaths. Sorry for the ramble, it's 1:30 here.

[GodWood]

TheZyzyva wrote...

Enmystic wrote...
*snip*

So you're against escapism?

No, sometimes people don't like being reminded that we aren't awesome heroes. Sometimes watching those heroes deal with real issues helps remind us that nothing's perfect, and that we'll get by just fine as well. Sometimes it's nice to see people in the same boat as us, even if they are just fictional.
Just saiyan.

Yup, that.

[Zu Long]

TheZyzyva wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

*BigSnip*
Does that help explain the difference?

Yeah, deffinitely. I guess it just depends how perfect the "perfect" ending is. I'm not against the whole squad making it, but at what cost? I just don't want the ending to be shots on the citadel, bro-ing it up with Garrus and co. about how easy the reapers were to defeat. I really don't think that's the ending anyone wants, but from the attitudes of some here it's hard to tell. ME has been a dramatic story from the start, and I want and trust Bioware to finish it as such.

Now I get the detraction a forced decision like Virmire has on the game and on replayability, but I know the first time I saw it, even knowing about it before-hand and had already picked Ash to die because I didn't like her, I was moved by how Shep reacted to having to make that choice. The same reaction that was missing on the SM which made those deaths pointless.

And then there are some deaths out there in various media that have a nice impact regardless of how many times I see them. Things like Spike at the end of Cowboy Bebop, Wolfwood during Trigun, Lenny in Of Mice And Men, Maximus at the end of Gladiator, ect.

Anyways, regardless of the ending, I trust Bioware to get the job done right. And I bet that as long as it's done right, even those of you hoping for the "flawless victory" won't bemoan a couple deaths. Sorry for the ramble, it's 1:30 here.

3:30 here, how do you think I feel? (Can't sleep for some reason)

I also trust Bioware to make good decisions. I don't want to feel it was easy, I just want a say in what happens to the people Bioware has successfully convinced me to invest so much time and energy in caring about.

[TheZyzyva]

Zu Long wrote...

3:30 here, how do you think I feel? (Can't sleep for some reason)

Um, sleepy?

I also trust Bioware to make good decisions. I don't want to feel it was easy, I just want a say in what happens to the people Bioware has successfully convinced me to invest so much time and energy in caring about.

I can drink to that.

Edit: I just hope when everyone else who's been in this thread wake up they actually take the time to read our previous posts. God knows that would save some trouble.

Modifié par TheZyzyva, 31 août 2011 - 08:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Zu Long wrote...

Your solution is to preserve drama by having the plot mandate death for close party members, thus absolving you of responsibility for having "lost" that character. This allows you to feel that you have "won"- you succeeded to the best of your ability within the confines of the game.

For those of us on MY side, we do NOT feel we have "won" when a valued team member is force-killed by the plot. Rather we feel have "lost" and more than that, that the possibility of winning at all was entirely removed before we started playing. In short, we feel cheated of our ability to succeed.

This divergence, in my opinion, comes from a difference of expectation and of feelings of personal responsibility. From what you've said, you are entering the game with the expectation that this is war, and that people die. If your people die, well, realistically those are the fortunes of war.

I enter the game with a different mindset. The moment I pick up that controller, I AM Commander Shepard. This is MY team. They are MY responsibility. Bioware doesn't get to decide who lives and dies, I DO. Reality need not apply.

Responsiblilty? This has nothing to do with responsiblity.

A perfect fluff rainabow ending ruins the ehoel experience for me. It's so uterrly cheesy and unbelievable that my suspension of disbelief is shattered comeptlely.

And it's also a fallacy to think that cause you in command of a squad, you get to decide who lives and who dies. You don't. A bullet does.


Frankly, the way I'd do it is to randomize it a bit. Have 2-3 missions where the wuad has to be split up, and someone, somewhere WILL die. Since you don't know befire hand who (like in real life) you can upgrade them all.

[TheZyzyva]

Oh god it's Lotion... Although to be fair, that's probably the most reasonable post of yours I've seen.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheZyzyva wrote...

Oh god it's Lotion... Although to be fair, that's probably the most reasonable post of yours I've seen.

To be fair, I have no idea who you are....But I already hate you.
You're on my list.

[TheZyzyva]

Haha, I've had a couple spats with you in the past... Just keep it civil and there won't be any issues; I was enjoying this thread.

[Zu Long]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Your solution is to preserve drama by having the plot mandate death for close party members, thus absolving you of responsibility for having "lost" that character. This allows you to feel that you have "won"- you succeeded to the best of your ability within the confines of the game.

For those of us on MY side, we do NOT feel we have "won" when a valued team member is force-killed by the plot. Rather we feel have "lost" and more than that, that the possibility of winning at all was entirely removed before we started playing. In short, we feel cheated of our ability to succeed.

This divergence, in my opinion, comes from a difference of expectation and of feelings of personal responsibility. From what you've said, you are entering the game with the expectation that this is war, and that people die. If your people die, well, realistically those are the fortunes of war.

I enter the game with a different mindset. The moment I pick up that controller, I AM Commander Shepard. This is MY team. They are MY responsibility. Bioware doesn't get to decide who lives and dies, I DO. Reality need not apply.

Responsiblilty? This has nothing to do with responsiblity.

A perfect fluff rainabow ending ruins the ehoel experience for me. It's so uterrly cheesy and unbelievable that my suspension of disbelief is shattered comeptlely.

And it's also a fallacy to think that cause you in command of a squad, you get to decide who lives and who dies. You don't. A bullet does.

You're really bringing the realities of combat into a game that regularly pits a three-man team against waves upon waves of heavily armed mercs, monsters, etc? Somehow your suspension of disbelief is not shattered by this, but it is at the thought of an entire group of people surviving a war?

And just to clarify, I wasn't talking about it in terms of control, I was talking in terms of perception. One of the realities of command is that good commanders feel the crushing weight of responsibility for the people who die under their command, random luck or not. The comment was intending to indicate that in getting into the game, I mentally shift that onus onto myself. That's why I don't want people to die.

Frankly, the way I'd do it is to randomize it a bit. Have 2-3
missions where the wuad has to be split up, and someone, somewhere
WILL die. Since you don't know befire hand who (like in real life) you
can upgrade them all.

And why stop there? Hell, just have the game roll a random die at the beginning of the game. 1-5 you lose and die at some point, 6 you live. It's more realistic that way. Good luck with your game experience players!

[MarauderESP]

TheZyzyva wrote...

Enmystic wrote...
*snip*

So you're against escapism?

No, sometimes people don't like being reminded that we aren't awesome heroes. Sometimes watching those heroes deal with real issues helps remind us that nothing's perfect, and that we'll get by just fine as well. Sometimes it's nice to see people in the same boat as us, even if they are just fictional.
Just saiyan.

well i play it becouse a want to be the a********** (sorry that word remaind me, of some button that i cant forget ) hero, and for real issues i have enough on the real life , just to traslade them to my games, no thanks....
but that is my opinion and is as valid as yours

[TheZyzyva]

I know Marauder, I'm not one who tries to bash others for having a different opinion. Was just trying to show the point of view of some of the other players was all. I'm all for games that steer clear of darker themes, but I'm of the mind that the ME games aren't those, and shouldn't become those. When I want a lighter tone, I play lighter games. For example Borderlands is one of my favorites.
And most of that came out meaner sounding than I intended, but you get my drift. Just please don't read that in an insulting tone.

Edit: And Marauder, just saw that video you linked in another thread, I almost fell out of my chair. Thank you.

Modifié par TheZyzyva, 31 août 2011 - 09:39 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Zu Long wrote...

Responsiblilty? This has nothing to do with responsiblity.

A perfect fluff rainabow ending ruins the ehoel experience for me. It's so uterrly cheesy and unbelievable that my suspension of disbelief is shattered comeptlely.

And it's also a fallacy to think that cause you in command of a squad, you get to decide who lives and who dies. You don't. A bullet does.

You're really bringing the realities of combat into a game that regularly pits a three-man team against waves upon waves of heavily armed mercs, monsters, etc? Somehow your suspension of disbelief is not shattered by this, but it is at the thought of an entire group of people surviving a war?

And just to clarify, I wasn't talking about it in terms of control, I was talking in terms of perception. One of the realities of command is that good commanders feel the crushing weight of responsibility for the people who die under their command, random luck or not. The comment was intending to indicate that in getting into the game, I mentally shift that onus onto myself. That's why I don't want people to die.

So..you don't want realities of combat, but want realities of command? Even when the reality of command is that people under your command die?

Of course you don't want people to die. And that's exactly why their deaths have impact. Death of people you don't care about generally don't have impact.

And no, I don't have probelsm with squad surviving in normal missions. You're almost never outnumbered more than 2 to 1, you got kinectic barriers and cover. Yes, I can believe that your whose squad can go trough that. Unlikely, but possible.

However, the more you ramp up the danger the less I can believe that. There are things agaisnt cover and kinetic barriers can't help you. A commander cannot control everything. There's a limit to the odds.

Frankly, the way I'd do it is to randomize it a bit. Have 2-3
missions where the wuad has to be split up, and someone, somewhere
WILL die. Since you don't know befire hand who (like in real life) you
can upgrade them all.

And why stop there? Hell, just have the game roll a random die at the beginning of the game. 1-5 you lose and die at some point, 6 you live. It's more realistic that way. Good luck with your game experience players!

Better than the SM "loyality" death thing. That was a horrible, senseless mechanic.
Deaths by not upgrading your ship on the other hand did make sense (only it would have been ebtter if hte damage and death was random)

Imagine spliting your teams on 3 sites, and the reapers decide to nuke one site from orbit. Would it be realistic for everyone on that site to survive?

The greater the force agaisnt you, the less sense a perfect ending has.

[MarauderESP]

TheZyzyva wrote...

I know Marauder, I'm not one who tries to bash others for having a different opinion. Was just trying to show the point of view of some of the other players was all. I'm all for games that steer clear of darker themes, but I'm of the mind that the ME games aren't those, and shouldn't become those. When I want a lighter tone, I play lighter games. For example Borderlands is one of my favorites.
And most of that came out meaner sounding than I intended, but you get my drift. *1Just please don't read that in an insulting tone.

2*Edit: And Marauder, just saw that video you linked in another thread, I almost fell out of my chair. Thank you.

i know what u mean so dont worry, from the start of this post i was trying to say that killing a character justo to give drama and u cant do nothing to prevent it, becouse plots say that someone has to die, is the worst think u can do (hell the worst case of killing a character for the heck of the plot was Aerith Gainsborough from FFVII that frustrated me to the end...and always gets me on bad mood....., on a more actual game i will call DA2 u know who i reffer to?) there are lots of ways for introduce drama without killing ppl, but again that is what ppl preffer...tastes are as varied as ppl...

1- dont worry i usually take the thinks with philosofy, and i old enough to know when someone is trying to provoqe me
2- you are wellcome

[Ultai]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Imagine spliting your teams on 3 sites, and the reapers decide to nuke one site from orbit. Would it be realistic for everyone on that site to survive?

I'd like to see more of that actually.  Make the squadmates feel more like individuals rather than Shepard's puppets who he can micromanage and mold their views to his/her liking (kaidan/ashely come to mind), especially with Garrus concerning his shadow broker dossier.  To quote: Former C-Sec officer. Exceptional tactical and team-building skills. Leadership potential overshadowed by Shepard. Unlikely to fully develop under Shepard's command.

[Someone With Mass]

Zu Long wrote...

And why stop there? Hell, just have the game roll a random die at the beginning of the game. 1-5 you lose and die at some point, 6 you live. It's more realistic that way. Good luck with your game experience players!

Yeah, having a character like Grunt die to the average mercs would shatter my suspension of disbelief harder than anything else.

For that matter, have someone close to a character you like be in danger or something like it instead. Then you can watch them react to the tragedy and then you can cheer them up/tell them to deal with it accordingly.

Like Liara in her search for Feron, or Tali and her dead father.

To say that no-one outside the squad can affect anything in the game on an emotional level is just horse****.

I think it's a much better way to display Shepard's sympathy or sorrow without involving the death of a squadmate, unless it's the player's fault that they're about to die.

That way, we can throw in some decisions in the situation at the same time, and give the player a choice and not go with the completely random "oh you like this character? Too bad, now he/she's dead and there's nothing you can do to prevent/cope with it" approach.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 31 août 2011 - 10:49 .

[Undertone]

TheOptimist wrote...

Undertone wrote...

People that have nothing to do with me directly. Just as much as you don't give a **** with what happens in the Africa let's say or this random guy who had a car accident. Statistics babe. 

Don't I?  Why do people give money to hospitals, the Red Cross, or the Peace Corps?  Because they don't care?

It's a little different though when someone you know dies right? So don't play dumb.

Yep, it's different, and I expect people Shepard knows, or meets, will not make it.  But my squad?  A whole squad of people who are already hardcore survivors? There's no reason they shouldn't survive.

I might have issues  but at least I'm not some snot-nosed, soft fool that has never had any kind of challenge in life and hence desires for bunnies and rainbows.

Yes, that is why I crave to be able to save everyone in my squad.  Because I hate challenges.

People give money cause they want to make themselves feel better. It makes you feel good. You can justify it however you want but in the end it's an enlightened self-interest. You can tell me thousands of reasons why you donate but in the end of the line subconsciously is cause it makes you feel good.

And yeah you could think of me as a hardcore sociopath or myzanthrope (which is funny considering half of you blubbering paragons would sacrifice humanity for another race if given the choice, cause teh humanity is so evil) but I would actually help somebody on the street if I can. I have no illusion as to why I'm doing it though - it makes me feel better about myself. I gain nothing else from it but personal satisfaction.

So goes for the rest of the stuff - if you care about the whole world and every single person in it then go ahead and do whatever you want. I'm not blind and I'm direct and straightforward enough to tell you I don't give a **** if something happens to somebody I don't know or whatever. You can care about the whole world, the world doesn't care about you. If I can help my family or you, my best friends or you - who do you think I would help

So shut the **** up about the whole people volunteer ****. People die just because of your mere existence - people die on this world because you simply have a place to stay, food to eat and so on and there's not enough resources. You hurt people without you even realizing it. So don't give me the high bound moralistic crap because it's usually people that haven't seen anything outside of their comfortable home, neighbourhood and mommy and daddy giving them money. And even if such was not the case, it shows lack of experience.

You are fighting omni-potent or so supposed Gods that have been extinguishing all life in the galaxy for the past kajilion years without a single fail and complete success, that possess indoctrination and untold technology vastly superior to yours. There's absolutely no reason for everyone to make it from your squad none whatsoever. The Collectors were nothing compared to the Reapers.

It brakes any suspension of disbelief for the whole crew to make it alive again.

[Whatever42]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

No it's not. Remember ME1 ending: you had to choose between the Alliance fleet and Destiny Ascension. You weren't able to save both.
So let's say that during the ME3,game leads to Garrus being on Palaven and Tali on Flotila (it's actually possible,they said there wil be such thing as temporary squadmates). And just like in ME1,you have to choose which one to save. Would that be a betrayal of the game's premise or taking away the choice? - No.

One or both could already be dead. Why write a powerful emotional scene that a significant number of players will miss?

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 31 août 2011 - 10:55 .

[Undertone]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

No it's not. Remember ME1 ending: you had to choose between the Alliance fleet and Destiny Ascension. You weren't able to save both.
So let's say that during the ME3,game leads to Garrus being on Palaven and Tali on Flotila (it's actually possible,they said there wil be such thing as temporary squadmates). And just like in ME1,you have to choose which one to save. Would that be a betrayal of the game's premise or taking away the choice? - No.

One or both could already be dead. Why write a powerful emotional scene that a significant number of players will miss?

You must be kidding me - I can bet you 99% have Garrus, Tali and Liara surviving. (well no surprises about Liara)

[MarauderESP]

Undertone wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

No it's not. Remember ME1 ending: you had to choose between the Alliance fleet and Destiny Ascension. You weren't able to save both.
So let's say that during the ME3,game leads to Garrus being on Palaven and Tali on Flotila (it's actually possible,they said there wil be such thing as temporary squadmates). And just like in ME1,you have to choose which one to save. Would that be a betrayal of the game's premise or taking away the choice? - No.

One or both could already be dead. Why write a powerful emotional scene that a significant number of players will miss?

You must be kidding me - I can bet you 99% have Garrus, Tali and Liara surviving. (well no surprises about Liara)

100% agree

what´s up with ppl wanting to chose ----> Tali or Garrus , hell guys if u want to kill someone kill the rest of squadmates from me2 (exept kasumi tali and garrus )