896 réponses à ce sujet

[Gorosaur]

But the squadmates are not PC's. The sad fact of war stories is that people die. I often give characters the ability to save said NPC's but I make it difficult, which is what Bioware should do.

[nitefyre410]

Gorosaur wrote...

But the squadmates are not PC's. The sad fact of war stories is that people die. I often give characters the ability to save said NPC's but I make it difficult, which is what Bioware should do.

 

yeah and yes that what Bioware should do  -  totally not against that  give everyone the  option to have the ending as they so choose which  why I like  ME 2 - I can come back with just 3 ppl or the entire squad or not come back all  

Which is what  all of people are saying.

I said  earlier I'm still trying to figure out how this got on the whole  No Character Death vs Character Death debate.

On a side note I would find it Hilarous is the people that  import  the "Everyone dies"  ME 2 play through got a Critical Mission Failure at the start of ME 3 after importing the game.

[Gorosaur]

TheOptimist wrote...

Gorosaur wrote...

Its understandable. The fact of the matter is character deaths will exist in game, I just want them to be executed well and carry the weight they should.

The fact of the matter is Mass Effect 3 is a resolution to a trilogy. And sometimes character arcs end in deaths, thats just the way the writing works.

I'm a DM/GM for numerous RPGs I play with friends. Although I love to give my players as much freedom as they chose, sometimes certain characters just have to do certain things for the sake of the story. Its sad and frustrating, but I understand where Bioware is coming from.

So when you come to resolution phase of your plotlines, do you just arbitrarily pick a PC to kill with no chance to avoid it so your players will know it's "fo' reals this time"?  I'm guessing not.  If they do something stupid, sure, and there's always random chance, but rocks fall party member X dies no save GG see how serious and deadly my story is?   

I'd also like to stress that alot of people here don't want random arbitrary deaths to exist in game for the sake of tension. We simply just want there to be an emotional toll for this war Shepard is fighting, and when deaths do occur for them to be impactful.

[Izhalezan]

A death because you made a bad choice is fine.
A death no matter what you do is iffy to me.
Shepard didn't head over to Starfleet and pick up the latest batch of red shirts for the Suicide Mission. They are all professionals.. and professionals have standards....

[TheOptimist]

Gorosaur wrote...

But the squadmates are not PC's. The sad fact of war stories is that people die. I often give characters the ability to save said NPC's but I make it difficult, which is what Bioware should do.

The squad is the party, but I'm going to stop arguing and say thank you, that is all I want, just the chance.  Me and my Shep will take it from there. 

[BlaCKRodjj]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Gorosaur wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Gorosaur wrote...


Which is incredibly idiotic. You don't get mad at a writer, or director for killing off a character if the story dictates that they die.

 

Right  you don't but Bioware  put themselves  in position with  the "Build your own Story"  idea behind the game and plot itself.   If they take away player choice for the sake of drama now its going  to not go over well. 

The problem with  killing people off to create drama especial in a game like mass effect is the fact  death has to affect the MC  in a certain manner but when have people playing Shepard  A this way and Shepard B that  way, players choosing how Shepard can responded emotional -  the Death of the character looses its impact.  

I don't think there is a  message board  big enouch for the list of all the   great  emotional character deaths I have seen, read and play in my time.  

But those stories,etc,  had the element of drama before  the characters death - not because of it.  

Very few are supporting the idea that characters should die to create drama. More so are supporting the idea that its poor storytelling for everyone to escape this all out war alive. My original intention for this thread was that Bioware when creating a death scene, because they will exist, should make sure they carry the weight and emotion they should.


I think overall people over time have twisted the Mass Effect franchise in their heads into something its not. This is only natural (seeing as it happens to pretty much every fanbase over time). However, with me its more extreme. Because the game allows a degree of player freedom , the expectations for what should happen in game are much more varied and extreme than they would be for any other series.

Most people accept things that were presented in the original Mass Effect without doubt because thats what we based our opinions of the franchise on. It was our introduction to the series as a whole. However, I'm pretty sure if Bioware were to create a scenario similar to Virmire where characters die due to dialogue decisions than people would throw a tirade because Bioware didn't give them the ending they wanted.

 


True  but I come back to  DA 2 and the of Hawkes mother -  people went and are still going ape**** of  over that   one quest and more.  I personally liked it but many feel that  it control of  how their Hawke  reacted was taken from  them without the option of being able to save  Hawkes mother.   That type of the reaction is going to happen  if they try to pull the same thing in ME 3 with character deaths   especially if the character death serves no purpose other that create a false sense of the drama.   

Also in  creating  the type of Emotional  Death scene that you and I are looking -  You have  into consideration that  Shepard is  blank slate for the  players  feelings so if Player A wants Shepard not to give a damn about Character Y- then  Shepards is not going to have any kind of emotional connection to create the emotional scene when Character Y -  get dead.     Which puts  Bioware into corner  when in comes to that type of the story telling and limiting the options that they give people.  

Honestly I don't know how this turned into a  No Character Death vs Character  Death debate.

Yeah, but you're forgetting something about Leandra's death. It wasn't just for a false sense of drama, but it was to shape your final decisions... join the templars or the mages. As it was with Ser Alrik during anders personal quest.  I wouldn't mind deaths during ME3, because first it's a war and you cannot save them all and second, deaths of beloved characters have happened in other media so i don't see how this should be different. But i would also like the choice of saving my squadmates be really ****ing hard.
If squadmates have to die, i want it to be THIS emotional (minus the fighting, worse because you fire the bullet but was "censored")  

[marstor05]

death on the battlefield is quite often random. This would act as a shock factor in the game itself if at any moment in any raid any member of your team can die - depending on certain factors.

In war people die. Why sanitise it?

[Gorosaur]

Montezuma IV wrote...

It to me, would seem far muddled to wish for an "emotional death". I would suggest that such feelings, anyway, come from the non-expecting element of an event. Not the narrative of the player for the sake of wanting the story to seem in-depth and emotional.

While it is inevitable that people die in war, especially on the occasion of giant mechanical insect-like beings, it would be Shepard's job to keep the sacrifices....low. Instead of the cliched motive of finding emotion and empowerment from death....I want BioWare to focus on making a story that can touch in a way only the Mass Effect universe they created can.

Happy-endings hold as much feeling as the bittersweet conclusion. It just has to be done right, and is what I far prefer.

Its more the fact that I want deaths to be acknowledged and actually feel like a character resolution. LOST was a television series that had character deaths that while sad felt emotionally satisfying. Its something I'd like to see Mass Effect attempt to take on.

[nitefyre410]

TheOptimist wrote...

Gorosaur wrote...

But the squadmates are not PC's. The sad fact of war stories is that people die. I often give characters the ability to save said NPC's but I make it difficult, which is what Bioware should do.

The squad is the party, but I'm going to stop arguing and say thank you, that is all I want, just the chance.  Me and my Shep will take it from there. 

 

Exactly  just give me the choice  and the option Ill  work it from that point...  Other  than if  I want to see the dramatic   dying Ill play Reach or the  MGS  or Run through ME 3  and kill some people off.  

[mopotter]

Zu Long wrote...

TheZyzyva wrote...

Look, there's a big issue that has only been mentioned once I think, by Ghost Warrior (love the sig by the way), and that is that if the perfect ending is saving everyone, no sacrifices, as gamers we'll feel like we failed if we don't get that. We don't care that we can lose people if we want for drama, because we want to succede. But if that success is a golden ending, then we'll feel cheated because it didn't feel like a good story. It's a lose lose for us, and that's bull. We want a good game and a good story. There needs to be drama for there to be a story, otherwise I'd be playing Duke Nukem. Does the drama have to come from deaths? No, but it has to come from somewhere. Things like fear, sadness, anger all create drama, not bad***ery, one liners, and shots on the citadel. Sure, those things have their place, but a good story needs more than that.

So without any meaningful deaths, how those of you advocating a "sunshine and bunnies" ending, as it's being called, suggest Bioware incorporate drama? By having me fail? That doesn't make me connect to Shep, that makes me feel like an idiot. That doesn't make me want to play.

Look, I'm not trying to bash you guys and what you want, just try to understand where other people are coming from. Overall, I feel like having a "perfect" ending would hurt the game as a whole. I just don't feel as though a war should be won with no sacrifices, it would cheapen the whole story.

Sorry for the wall, I'm just trying to be as clear as possible and actually promote an intelligent conversation. It's against the SOP I know, but I'm a rebel.

Well, as one of those who would like the option for "flawless victory," as I prefer to think of it, I'll try to answer your question.

Basically, what I want is the same as what you want. I want to succeed. I'm not playing just to lose. As you point out, failing is not fun. This is where our viewpoints diverge:

Your solution is to preserve drama by having the plot mandate death for close party members, thus absolving you of responsibility for having "lost" that character. This allows you to feel that you have "won"- you succeeded to the best of your ability within the confines of the game.

For those of us on MY side, we do NOT feel we have "won" when a valued team member is force-killed by the plot. Rather we feel have "lost" and more than that, that the possibility of winning at all was entirely removed before we started playing. In short, we feel cheated of our ability to succeed.

This divergence, in my opinion, comes from a difference of expectation and of feelings of personal responsibility. From what you've said, you are entering the game with the expectation that this is war, and that people die. If your people die, well, realistically those are the fortunes of war.

I enter the game with a different mindset. The moment I pick up that controller, I AM Commander Shepard. This is MY team. They are MY responsibility. Bioware doesn't get to decide who lives and dies, I DO. Reality need not apply.

Does that help explain the difference?

Excellent post.

[TheOptimist]

Gorosaur wrote...
I'd also like to stress that alot of people here don't want random arbitrary deaths to exist in game for the sake of tension. We simply just want there to be an emotional toll for this war Shepard is fighting, and when deaths do occur for them to be impactful.

Correct.  I full expect there to be an emotional toll.  Squadmate death is not and should not be a requirement for said toll.

[Sajuro]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eh? Is Grunt immune to merc bulltets? Or sniper rifles. Or merc gunships?
How the hell does a character being killed by supwerior firewpoer break suspension of disbelief?

Shepard can shoot Grunt at point blank three times in the face and it merely tickles him. Gunships? We've knocked those out of the sky before.

I'm talking about a small squad of mercs killing Grunt or Thane or Samara. That would be pretty unbelievable.

Kai Leng has been confirmed as an enemy in ME3, if he gets the drop on Grunt he could probably kill him in a sneak attack.
As for the possibility of sacrifice or Shepard dieing I want to do something from the shawshank redemption
"I wish I could tell you that Shepard fought the good fight, and everyone made it out alright. I wish I could tell you that - but the galaxy is no fairy-tale
world."

[mopotter]

TheZyzyva wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

3:30 here, how do you think I feel? (Can't sleep for some reason)

Um, sleepy?

I also trust Bioware to make good decisions. I don't want to feel it was easy, I just want a say in what happens to the people Bioware has successfully convinced me to invest so much time and energy in caring about.

I can drink to that.

Edit: I just hope when everyone else who's been in this thread wake up they actually take the time to read our previous posts. God knows that would save some trouble.

  you know that will never happen.  Though I've enjoyed reading both of your post.

[nitefyre410]

BlaCKRodjj wrote...


Yeah, but you're forgetting something about Leandra's death. It wasn't just for a false sense of drama, but it was to shape your final decisions... join the templars or the mages. As it was with Ser Alrik during anders personal quest.  I wouldn't mind deaths during ME3, because first it's a war and you cannot save them all and second, deaths of beloved characters have happened in other media so i don't see how this should be different. But i would also like the choice of saving my squadmates be really ****ing hard.
If squadmates have to die, i want it to be THIS emotional (minus the fighting, worse because you fire the bullet but was "censored")  

No - I did not forget that... The ones complaining about it did Leandra death did - not I.  I personally liked.

Second  I  never said said I was against character dying... I said that You can't or will have a very hard time doing something like that  or  say like the Death of the Boss  at    end of MGS 3. Because  Shepard is a blank slate   that the player   instills with his or her emotions..

Characters dying  in other media  - I am fan of  the  Gundum Series  - you are preaching to the choir. 

character Death should be dicated  but  the effect that it the main character  and  that the main characer at that point has to  overcome afterwards... Not just for shock value... The story makes the death not the Death making the story.


 

[nitefyre410]

Montezuma IV wrote...

Gorosaur wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...

It to me, would seem far muddled to wish for an "emotional death". I would suggest that such feelings, anyway, come from the non-expecting element of an event. Not the narrative of the player for the sake of wanting the story to seem in-depth and emotional.

While it is inevitable that people die in war, especially on the occasion of giant mechanical insect-like beings, it would be Shepard's job to keep the sacrifices....low. Instead of the cliched motive of finding emotion and empowerment from death....I want BioWare to focus on making a story that can touch in a way only the Mass Effect universe they created can.

Happy-endings hold as much feeling as the bittersweet conclusion. It just has to be done right, and is what I far prefer.

 



Its more the fact that I want deaths to be acknowledged and actually feel like a character resolution. LOST was a television series that had character deaths that while sad felt emotionally satisfying. Its something I'd like to see Mass Effect attempt to take on.

I know what you mean and normally I would agree (not that we are exactly disagreeing with one another), but you can acknowledge death without the forced demises of squad-mates. For example through temporary characters and such. Unless of course this is exactly what you meant all along.

 

Exactly

Like I said  Story makes the Death - not the Death makes the story

Modifié par nitefyre410, 31 août 2011 - 07:38 .

[Feanor_II]

Montezuma IV wrote...

It to me, would seem far muddled to wish for an "emotional death". I would suggest that such feelings, anyway, come from the non-expecting element of an event. Not the narrative of the player for the sake of wanting the story to seem in-depth and emotional.

While it is inevitable that people die in war, especially on the occasion of giant mechanical insect-like beings, it would be Shepard's job to keep the sacrifices....low. Instead of the cliched motive of finding emotion and empowerment from death....I want BioWare to focus on making a story that can touch in a way only the Mass Effect universe they created can.

Happy-endings hold as much feeling as the bittersweet conclusion. It just has to be done right, and is what I far prefer.

Yeah, good post.

Anyway, I think that a 100% Happy End is very unlikely. Why? Bechause through all the games we have been making important choices that affect the future of the galaxy for coming years (Council, Rachni Queen, Genophage, Geth, etc......), in most of the endings (It seems there will be an ending where Reapers are triumphant) we will defeat the Reapers, or at least save the galaxy from an unavoidable destruction....... But, regardless what happens with Sheppard and squadmates, the aftermath of the war will also depend on those situations.... and as happened on DA:O, at the end the future of Ferelden had it good things but also bad, even as we tried to play as Mr-Good-Guy and trying to solve every problem and unjustice and trying to conciliate different factions.

[mopotter]

AwesomeName wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Undertone wrote...

It brakes any suspension of disbelief for the whole crew to make it alive again.

So don't have the whole crew make it out.  No one is making you keep the whole crew alive.  Hell, in a lot of ways sending someone weak, like Mordin or Tali, to guard the crew on the way back makes less sense than sending someone who can take care of themselves. I fully expect there to be times when your squad can die, and I would not dream of telling you they have to survive.  But I would like the option to make sure they do.

That's completely daft.  Why would you deliberately do that? :/  That squad death would have no impact because you deliberately made it happen, as opposed to a squad death which happens despite your best efforts.  Also, how on earth would you be able to just choose for no one to die given the gravity of the situation??

Because I'm playing more than 1 game.  
Because it would be really boring to have every single game be exactly like the previous 8, 9 or 10  games. 
Because it's a video game built around choices.
Because I'm going to be playing the game for as many hours, even years, as possible, not just whipping through it to see the reapers dealt with and
because there is no reason not to make it a possibility.  One that you have to work at to make happen.  

[BlaCKRodjj]

nitefyre410 wrote...

BlaCKRodjj wrote...


Yeah, but you're forgetting something about Leandra's death. It wasn't just for a false sense of drama, but it was to shape your final decisions... join the templars or the mages. As it was with Ser Alrik during anders personal quest.  I wouldn't mind deaths during ME3, because first it's a war and you cannot save them all and second, deaths of beloved characters have happened in other media so i don't see how this should be different. But i would also like the choice of saving my squadmates be really ****ing hard.
If squadmates have to die, i want it to be THIS emotional (minus the fighting, worse because you fire the bullet but was "censored")  

No - I did not forget that... The ones complaining about it did Leandra death did - not I.  I personally liked.

Second  I  never said said I was against character dying... I said that You can't or will have a very hard time doing something like that  or  say like the Death of the Boss  at    end of MGS 3. Because  Shepard is a blank slate   that the player   instills with his or her emotions..

Characters dying  in other media  - I am fan of  the  Gundum Series  - you are preaching to the choir. 

character Death should be dicated  but  the effect that it the main character  and  that the main characer at that point has to  overcome afterwards... Not just for shock value... The story makes the death not the Death making the story.


 

Agreed

[mopotter]

TheOptimist wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

Well tough, you can't have every event in the ME universe as an optional thing.  You can only control the way Shepard acts; you can't have godlike control over your squadmates' mortality.  You can't expect your team to be so Awesome that, despite the countless numbers who have tried before you to stop the Reapers, your best just happens to be good enough to win a Perfect (especially when you're the first to ever do it). 

Watching half the galaxy get destroyed is not 'Perfect'.  Stopping the Reapers before they ever got here would have been perfect, but alas, Shepard is only human.

In many situations in life you can prevent bad things from happening if you try hard enough - but your best isn't good enough to prevent everything life throws at you.  It's unrealistic and this is one area where you need some element of realism to emotionally ground you in a fictional universe filled to the brim with unrealistic and fantastical things.

Once again, Shepard has lost 23 people under his/her command, no matter what you did.  That's plenty and more than enough.  We already know you will see people drop around you.  Also, I love how character survival is the breaking point for suspension of disbelief for so many people here.  "Shepard back from the dead after getting spaced, possibly burned and then frozen?  Meh, I can dig it.  Squad survives? NO, EVERYTHING IS RUINED."

Given the situation in ME3, it just seems absurd that they'd give you an option to be amazing enough that you'd be able to save your entire squad.  It's juvenile and it's completely unbelievable that one could just "choose" for all your squaddies to survive.  Being able to choose to try to save them?  Now that's different and something I fully support..  Shepard is a human soldier and probably the best hero the galaxy has, but for god's sake, he's not a cheesy caricature of a Totally Awesome Dude.

Well, I could advocate that squaddies survive by writer fiat, as the opposite seems to be so popular around here, but I'd really like to see people atleast have the option to get the depressing story they so desperately want, if only because there'd be slightly less whining afterward. I really don't get why it strains believability to think the people in Shepard's squad will make it through, it's not like I'm advocating no one at all die in a galactic war. 

Yes, it's always interesting to see those who are "my way or the highway"  no choice squad has to die or else it's not valid, vs those who are willing to compromise by having choices that gives the game far more re-play value.  

[Belisarius09]

I could go for some emotional death scenes. I saw someone post something about shepard crying earlier, and I wanted to touch on that.

I don't think shepard should break down and start bawling in the middle of the battlefield, nor do I think shepard shouldn't cry at all because he's such a bad ass. I mean he is a bad ass, but he also still has some humanity. Maybe when he has a moment alone in his captain's cabin he sheds a tear for those lost.

In me1 the death on Virmire did a good job of pulling emotional strings. And even in me2, even though the deaths in the suicide mission seemed emotionless at the time, there was the scene at the end where shepard looks over the casket. Bio-ware did a good job of not making the mistake of glorifying death, and at the same time, made sure it wasn't meaningless.