896 réponses à ce sujet

[nitefyre410]

Really the "Those" people vs "These" people argument... BSN you never cease amaze me

[mopotter]

CuseGirl wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

I still cannot fathom WHY people are not willing to use the tools Bioware gave us to craft the story we want and demand the deaths to be imposed upon us......it just baffles me at this point

tools as in modding the game? or r u talking about the choices we make over the course of the game? For console users, there are no mods, we get the game as-is and hope for patches....

But yea, I hope I dont have to choose between my LI and humanity's survival. But I wudn't freak out if Dr. Chakwas or Tali kicked the bucket.

Could be wrong, but I assume they are talking about the choices we make as the creator of our story.   I have a numer of Shepards and everyone of them have a different story and in ME2 a different ending with different team members dieing or living depending on that Shepards choices.     

[mopotter]

TheZyzyva wrote...

This thread is so infuriating. Optimist, for being such a staunch humanitarian, you sure seem to not give much of a crap about what other players want in this game. There are plenty of other games out there for your escapism, ME was never about that, as Virmire quite sufficiently displays.
For one thing, I think you're quite over-estimating the amount of choice ME offers. Why do you demand you be able to save everyone in 3 when you couldn't in 1? Why change that now?
And I've already been over why the SM mission was such a failure in a prior post, people dying because the player failed is not good story, people dying while knowing they can live, and dying before the end of their story is not good from any point of view. Now if their was a scripted death on the SM, that would have been nice. That would have allowed a character to complete their story and allowed an emotional parting. And because it happens at the end of the game, my time with them would not have been wasted, I wouldn't ignore them in later playthorughs. The problem with the Areis example that has been brought up is that she dies long before the end of the game. I ignored her as a fighter because I didn't want my play style to become dependent on her if I couldn't use her for most the game. I did not however, ignore her as a character, and that death scene always gets me. If a death has lost its impact because you personally decided you didn't want it to have impact, how is that Biowares fault? How is that the stories fault? I don't care about the Virmire decision from a gameplay standpoint because I didn't use either of them, and I killed Ash because I liked her less. Then I see the reaction to it and I always feel for Shep, because I let the scene move me. If you want to fight it and treat it like a joke, that's just you.
That said, Optimist, I understand you're not advocating a perfect end, but how are the losses that occur going to be shown? Because I want to see the grief. If a planet gets wiped to save Miranda, the casualties better not just be shown to me as numbers on the screen because there's no emotion in that. You say "Sheps already lost 23 that's enough" but in reality he has not. He has lost no more than 2 meaningful people, assuming you do the SM right. There's the one on Virmire, and Pressly. That. Is. It. 20 nameless soldiers that invoke no reaction from player or Sheppard do not count, and neither does Jenkins, who the player never gets to know. So if I sacrifice multitudes of civilians to save an oh-so-important squaddie, I want to be called out on that decision, I want to question whether or not I did the right thing.
At its core, this is a war story. As the saying goes, war is ****. Stop trying to make it anything but. There are already plenty of other games out there that let you be your infallible hero. This is one set in a harsher reality.

Edit: And thank you MoPotter, it makes me happy when people actually respond to reasonable and well thought out posts like those were.

Your welcome, but you do know I agree with Optimist right?    I do care about the other players, and from everytthing I've read, so does Optimist.  We want the option to bring our team through alive.   

Maybe it's becuase I play the games I have for years and I want all of those options to have a lot of different things going on.  But after playing them 8, 9 10 times, the emotion in ME1 slipped.  ME2 however, I still get sad when I have someone die in ME2 becuase I don't use the cheat sheets, and I'm always surprised with who dies.  I don't send anyone on a job that they are not qualified for.

ME1 was about escapism, at least to me.   I Like both Ash and Kaidan a LOT.    They are my two favorite characters.  The first play I spent 5 minuets staring at the tv trying to decide who to leave behind.  Each time I play it's easier.  Now I take turns.   But  I have saved my LI, in one game and still kill saren.  I was able to leave my LI behind for the good of the mission and he/she understood, I was able to have a LI who was not ever at risk of being left behind and in all of these cases I still Killed the bad guy and saved the council, or not.  I would have much prefered a 3rd option but it wasn't offered so I accept it.  

Save everyone in 3 because we could do it in 2.  I liked that a lot, even though story wise ME1 is my first choice, the way ME2 was set up is far more interesting to replay in order to see what different combinations do.  If I only played the game once or twice, then I wouldn't care what they did as long as I could survive with my LI.  But I don't just play a few times.  

My first ME2 game, I forgot where legion was and I didn't know the crew would die if I didn't go immediately to save them.  That's good for the first game, the 2nd time I didn't have the "talent" to get Miranda and Jack to agree, a different ending.  4th I didn't use the right person for the right task, not becuase they were not qualified, but because BW put in a requirement that only certain NPC's will get you through without a death.  This is fine.  I kept trying until i got the right combination which took a lot of playthroughs with my different Shepards.  But I did get that one play where everyone survived and that's what I want in ME3.  

I don't want to force the perfect ending on anyone who does not want to see it.(and really perfect is not the right word since I will see kids dieing that I can't help and I'm sure there are other things that will be sad),   I don't understand why people want to force me to play the same choose x to die or choose y to die options.  I know there will be things I can't controle or there will be choices like save civilions in this town or go help the military destory this outpost.  or some such thing.  And that's fine.  But I want options so I can have one, maybe two games where I save all of my team.  

I do want to see Shepard show a bit more emotion when something goes wrong,  I liked the ending of ME2 when Sheaprd touches the pods.    Yes, it's a "war" story.  But it's a video game, as others have mentioned is filled with things you probably won't see in a real war.  If your looking for a real war game those are available.   just like the escapist games.  Mass Effect 3 can do both, depending on how the story teller (me) tells the story.  And I will have stories where my team dies, I just want the option to have one where they survive.

Not sure who Areis is so have nothing to say about it.

You mentioned all of the other "escapist games out there.  This is a list of the games I play and replay:  KOTRO; Jade Empire; DA:2; Elder scrolls (morrowind, oblivion the 3rd is pre-ordered) Fall Out 3 with broken steel; Fall out NV.  I am extremely picky about the games I'll fork out money for.  ME1 and 2 are in this group.  Because of the choices and the story and they do give me the possibility of a "happy ending".  I'll wait and see if ME3 is included or not. 

[nitefyre410]

mopotter wrote...

.

*edit*

 

Arieth/Aries is considering on the most moving Character Deaths in Video Game history - she was character from  FF7 a game where do your choices did  affect that outcome. A good game - one the games that made the term RPG a household term  but its not built the same ways  Mass Effect.  The same with the death of the Boss at the end of the MGS 3   

Honestly at the end of the  comparison is apples and oranges because  you have no control of  who the character  of Cloud.


at the  end of the day  both options and choices should be there and will be there... if you like Happy Ending A  then work Bittersweet ending B  or you can go for Catatrophy ending C. Whatever best fitis the Shepard that  you the player crafted. ... Thats all Me, you and Others in theard are saying.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:39 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Zu Long wrote...

I think this argument generally can be boiled down to two sides.

One side wants the threat of plot-mandated death because that helps them emotionally invest in the story and makes it more real for them.

The other side, the side I take, is already emotionally invested. That's why we don't want our friends to die.

You say emotianlly invested, I say possesive.
We already seen the epic levels of denial and butthurt some ppl can sink to...the ME movie discussion was a good example.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arieth/Aries is considering on the most moving Character Deaths in Video Game history -

:blink:
Really?   FF is the biggest pile of bad writing and redicolous characters I've ever seen. It's so bad it's downright comical. Seriously, this game(s) made me constantly laugh at the horriblness.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheOptimist wrote...

Oh good, more catch-22 decisions.  I love those.  Save Squadmember X or kill millions of people isn't a choice, it's a death sentence. 

Life's a b****.
War is Hell.
People die.
You cannot control everything.

[RPGamer13]

They had plenty emotional deaths, if I hadn't known about them beforehand, I probably would have been crying. It's not their fault one may not be emotionally invested in the characters. If you don't care, you're not going to get emotional.

[Sundance31us]

Personally I'd rather my Shepard not become a large ham.

http://tvtropes.org/...p/Main/LargeHam

[Gonder96]

I approve the OP, Mass Effect 2 deaths almost showed no emotion for the deaths of your squadmates at all... The only somewhat notable emotions from deaths he showed is when Jack was killed aboard the Normandy due to missing armor upgrades, and also when a squad member is taken away by the swarms in the biotic field part, yet he yells their name only once and then sort of forgets about it afterwards.

Then for everyone else, he sort of just watches them die and shrugs it off straight after... What about his love interests? I don't think it's quite that easy to just shrug something like that off, just sayin'.

[marstor05]

There is plenty of room for emotional devastation. Think this one will be quite sad.

[nitefyre410]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Arieth/Aries is considering on the most moving Character Deaths in Video Game history -

:blink:
Really?   FF is the biggest pile of bad writing and redicolous characters I've ever seen. It's so bad it's downright comical. Seriously, this game(s) made me constantly laugh at the horriblness.

and i not saying its not a pile of crapy writing on top of a boat of fan misconception about the relationship between cloud and arieth.that still does not change the general preception of that it was emotional to some and be on list of tops for many.

[nelly21]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Arieth/Aries is considering on the most moving Character Deaths in Video Game history -

:blink:
Really?   FF is the biggest pile of bad writing and redicolous characters I've ever seen. It's so bad it's downright comical. Seriously, this game(s) made me constantly laugh at the horriblness.

and i not saying its not a pile of crapy writing on top of a boat of fan misconception about the relationship between cloud and arieth.that still does not change the general preception of that it was emotional to some and be on list of tops for many.

Off-topic: You know, I've gotta tell you guys. I frikin' HATE Final Fantasy. I've never "gotten" it. Even seven, which I guess is the best of all time or whatever, I despised the game. I beat seven just because I spent money on it. Rented 8, 9 and 10 and returned them all maybe a week after. Then my buddy told me to play this last one because it was awesome and for the first time in my life, I literally got so frustrated with a game that I threw my controller. Demons Souls never did that to me.

On-topic: I think the problem with story driven deaths is that it kind of goes against the premise of Mass Effect. You get to decide the story. Ashley, Kaiden, Wrex, Sucide mission crew mates, they all live or die based on your decisions.

I do think Bioware should make more of an effort to make the deaths more "passive". In other words, I would much prefer a system where characters lives were decided by actual gameplay and not specifically scripted interactive cutscenes. For example: In the suicide mission, you send a loyal Tali through the vents. Rather her than have her automatically survive, make it so that she'll hang on longer. If the timer between vent controls goes down, she dies and then the story adjusts (Shep has to go a different way that is more difficult or whatever). If she isn't loyal, she freaks out earlier and as a result dies faster.

By doing this, you are still in control of the story but your desired outcome isn't guaranteed. This will make fire fights more exciting since you now have a goal other than get to the next cutscene and make some specific decision. It would be more emotional, and would still be based on Shepard's actions.

[TheOptimist]

GodWood wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Selecting a "I would like to have Master Li to betray me" option [Jade Empire] does not have the same impact as the plot twist happening outside of the player's control.

Funny you bring up Jade Empire, as not a single member of your permanent Squad has to die to achieve victory.

Funny you say that, because you're wrong

Sagacious Zu dies no matter what.

[Spoilers for Jade Empire]

Admittedly it's been a while, but doesn't Sagacious Zu leave your party like 3 times? Not to mention you can't even have him with you when he dies? I remembered Zu's death, but I don't think of him as a permanent squadmate for that reason.

Main Character and squadmate death is not required for any of the things you mentioned.  I will admit never having seen or read 'Boy in the Striped Pyjamas' but I would venture to guess that it is drearily depressing. A simple check of IMDB tells me I am correct.  I do not play video games, read books, or watch movies to be depressed, I turn on the news.

And there's your problem.

You're one of those people.

What, my screen name didn't tip you off?

[TheOptimist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Oh good, more catch-22 decisions.  I love those.  Save Squadmember X or kill millions of people isn't a choice, it's a death sentence. 

Life's a b****.
War is Hell.
People die.
You cannot control everything.

Oh hey, platitudes. Wait, I got some. 
A penny saved is a penny earned.
Death and taxes.
An apple a day keeps the doctor away.

And I do not want to control everything.  I want the choice to save a small group of people.

[Someone With Mass]

TheOptimist wrote...

Oh hey, platitudes. Wait, I got some. 
A penny saved is a penny earned.
Death and taxes.
An apple a day keeps the doctor away.

And I do not want to control everything.  I want the choice to save a small group of people.

Oh, I want to do some platitudes too!

A half full glass of water is also half empty.

Money don't grow on trees.

[Lotion Soronarr]

nelly21 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Arieth/Aries is considering on the most moving Character Deaths in Video Game history -

:blink:
Really?   FF is the biggest pile of bad writing and redicolous characters I've ever seen. It's so bad it's downright comical. Seriously, this game(s) made me constantly laugh at the horriblness.

and i not saying its not a pile of crapy writing on top of a boat of fan misconception about the relationship between cloud and arieth.that still does not change the general preception of that it was emotional to some and be on list of tops for many.

Off-topic: You know, I've gotta tell you guys. I frikin' HATE Final Fantasy. I've never "gotten" it. Even seven, which I guess is the best of all time or whatever, I despised the game. I beat seven just because I spent money on it. Rented 8, 9 and 10 and returned them all maybe a week after. Then my buddy told me to play this last one because it was awesome and for the first time in my life, I literally got so frustrated with a game that I threw my controller. Demons Souls never did that to me.

Approach it as a comedy. It gets better then

Ever watch the Spoony Experiment?

On-topic: I think the problem with story driven deaths is that it kind of goes against the premise of Mass Effect. You get to decide the story. Ashley, Kaiden, Wrex, Sucide mission crew mates, they all live or die based on your decisions.

I do think Bioware should make more of an effort to make the deaths more "passive". In other words, I would much prefer a system where characters lives were decided by actual gameplay and not specifically scripted interactive cutscenes. For example: In the suicide mission, you send a loyal Tali through the vents. Rather her than have her automatically survive, make it so that she'll hang on longer. If the timer between vent controls goes down, she dies and then the story adjusts (Shep has to go a different way that is more difficult or whatever). If she isn't loyal, she freaks out earlier and as a result dies faster.

By doing this, you are still in control of the story but your desired outcome isn't guaranteed. This will make fire fights more exciting since you now have a goal other than get to the next cutscene and make some specific decision. It would be more emotional, and would still be based on Shepard's actions.

I hate the loyality system in ME2. It made no sense.
People say ME is about choices.
However, that doesn't mean you got to choose and control everything. People have to remember that.

That said, I like to give people options - but not a paerfect path. It shouldn't exist.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 01 septembre 2011 - 03:19 .

[Taesuun]

If there's to be a way to save everyone, it should be hard to achieve on your first playthrough without spoilers. Choices leading to the life/death results of team members should also at least sometimes be long term, discouraging you from loading the game and instead living with the consequences. The choices to save everyone should definitely not be as blatant as in ME2, hints to warn players of the risks should be much more subtle. In that way you wouldn't have to rp a moron Shep just to get a more realistic view on the story (which I consider including losses, when you are embarking on a suicide mission).

A couple of examples how the SM mission in ME2 could have been more enjoyable:
Technician into the vents: It is very clear that you need a tech expert, but it could also be about infiltration for an example. Maybe depending on the technician, he might need some help from the fire team too, possibly creating more trouble/hazards for the team.

Fire team leader: In addition to the leadership skill, personal relationships would play a role. The first thing that pops in mind here is of course how putting Jack under Mirandas authority (or vice versa!) is just asking for trouble.

Biotic bubble: Taking additional biotics in your team could have them help the specialist if they collapse in the end.

Ship crew escort: Depending on the character, not having loyalty could either get the some or all of the crew killed, or the character himself.

Only a couple of ideas, what I'm really looking for is to get surprises in the game. Some moments like "Oh ****!, they actually thought of that too!".

I think this is something that DA2 did well, with the fate of your sibling. Taking Anders with you into the deep roads is not clearly encouraged in any point, other than that he is of course, a grey warden, handy to have when you're killing dark spawn. I lost Bethany on my first playthrough because I didn't take him with me, and it was probably the most emotional moment in the whole game.

Modifié par Taesuun, 01 septembre 2011 - 03:25 .

[nitefyre410]

i dont care how bioware does it have the option for that outcome the for ppl that want it and same goes to the other side of the debat but take away the option for either or and there will be ****storm of grand scale far worst the the outrage over hawkes mother. no matter how i or ajy one else try explian why thzt great moment thats is all thzt i and others been saying this has never been about wether to have that type of ending or not... nor has it been about character death vs no character death.

[nitefyre410]

Montezuma IV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


I hate the loyality system in ME2. It made no sense.
People say ME is about choices.
However, that doesn't mean you got to choose and control everything. People have to remember that.

That said, I like to give people options - but not a paerfect path. It shouldn't exist.

On point. You decide ceartian aspects of the story, but the main plot must be followed through along with the events that occur. Shepard HAS to become the first human spectre, Nihilus HAS to be destroyed, KAINDAN or ASHELY have to be sacraficed.

this.

[nelly21]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Approach it as a comedy. It gets better then

Ever watch the Spoony Experiment?

I hate the loyality system in ME2. It made no sense.
People say ME is about choices.
However, that doesn't mean you got to choose and control everything. People have to remember that.

That said, I like to give people options - but not a paerfect path. It shouldn't exist.

Part one: I haven't seen that but will look it up as soon as I get off work. Still, I don't think I'll ever approach Final Fantasy again. In any mindset. Ever.


Part Two: I don't have a problem with a perfect path. Just make it hard. My only issue with ME 2 was that having everyone survive the SM didn't feel like an achievement. It felt like I input the right answer to a math question (or maybe a reading comprehension question).

You are facing overwhelming odds!!! Saving my crew should be hella hard!!!

[crimzontearz]

no, what I meant was that there can be deaths in Mass Effect 1 and 2, deaths that, aside for the person dying on Virmire, can be avoided. You have been given the tools to tell your story, to have your "emotioal deaths" in ME 2 the way you want them and in the quantity you want OR to have none at all.

Yet people moan and complain that they want squadmember deaths (or catch 22 decisions with no way out involving sacrificing shepard or an important character or a whole planet) imposed on them

those are the people who baffle me

[Gorosaur]

crimzontearz wrote...

no, what I meant was that there can be deaths in Mass Effect 1 and 2, deaths that, aside for the person dying on Virmire, can be avoided. You have been given the tools to tell your story, to have your "emotioal deaths" in ME 2 the way you want them and in the quantity you want OR to have none at all.

Yet people moan and complain that they want squadmember deaths (or catch 22 decisions with no way out involving sacrificing shepard or an important character or a whole planet) imposed on them

those are the people who baffle me

Perhaps because we like being told a story, and would rather not have to shape it into something we want? 

Again, as people have pointed out. Mass Effect was never a game where you got to decide everything. This is a myth that has sprung out in recent months and if people keep this in mind they will be very disappointed with ME3.

Mass Effect in many ways is a massive choose your own adventure book. The thing is these books function in the way that you react to a premade story and then it branches off. It was never, write your own story within this world we have given you. The plot still has to go on whether you like the direction it takes or not.

[TheOptimist]

Gorosaur wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

no, what I meant was that there can be deaths in Mass Effect 1 and 2, deaths that, aside for the person dying on Virmire, can be avoided. You have been given the tools to tell your story, to have your "emotioal deaths" in ME 2 the way you want them and in the quantity you want OR to have none at all.

Yet people moan and complain that they want squadmember deaths (or catch 22 decisions with no way out involving sacrificing shepard or an important character or a whole planet) imposed on them

those are the people who baffle me

Perhaps because we like being told a story, and would rather not have to shape it into something we want? 

Again, as people have pointed out. Mass Effect was never a game where you got to decide everything. This is a myth that has sprung out in recent months and if people keep this in mind they will be very disappointed with ME3.

Mass Effect in many ways is a massive choose your own adventure book. The thing is these books function in the way that you react to a premade story and then it branches off. It was never, write your own story within this world we have given you. The plot still has to go on whether you like the direction it takes or not.

In many ways, 'you don't get to decide everything' is the worst counter argument of all.  Deciding everything is not what we're asking for, no matter how some people try to twist it that way.  We merely ask for the same choice we were given in Mass Effect 2.  Trying to take us to task for asking for an option and writing style the writers already gave us once strikes me as a bit silly.