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[Fiery Phoenix]

I *highly* doubt BioWare will be pulling a Red Dead Redemption on us, but I also kind of see it happening from a certain perspective.

[100k]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Taesuun wrote...

Fire team leader: In addition to the leadership skill, personal relationships would play a role. The first thing that pops in mind here is of course how putting Jack under Mirandas authority (or vice versa!) is just asking for trouble.

Frankly, personal relationships should be irrelevant. If we're talking about professionals.
Anyone whos doesn't act 100% proffesional has no place on my team.

Actually, this is a common misconception. Not everyone on Shepard's team is "proffessional". Jack, Legion, arguably Kasumi, and Grunt aren't. 

As for the other characters, I'd imagine that Jacob, Garrus, Tali, Mordin, and Zaeed would all work extremely well together, because of their general team spirit. 

Miranda, Thane, Samara/Morinth are all proffesionals, but in a very different manner. Miranda has excellent tactical skills, but she doesn't have the respect that Garrus or Jacob has. This is emphasized when she says "I don't have what you have -- that fire that makes others want to follow you, even into hell itself". She just doesn't have the respect of those who follow her -- probably because she's not very nice in general. Even in Cerberus.

Thane is a proffessional, but a completely solitary one. I'd imagine that he can adapt very well to situations, but he admits that he is antisocial and unused to working on a team. In a squad of people -- all of whome rival his skills, it might be hectic and confusing to him. I'm not saying that he couldn't do it, just that something like official training with the other squad mates would be great for him.

Samara is an interesting case. She has the military and merc experience of Grunt or Zaeed, but is also fairly anti social like Thane. My guess is that she can follow orders so long as they don't contradict her code.

Hence, building personal AND proffesional relationships, especially between squad mates, would've been an excellent thing for ME2. 

Modifié par 100k, 01 septembre 2011 - 09:49 .

[Chris Priestly]

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

[Legion 2.5]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

Like how they killed Prime in the old G1 Movie.

Like how Spark killed Sgt Johnson and died in the Chief's arms at the end of Halo 3

How Noble 6 died on his last stand in Reach

You get the picture

[Fiery Phoenix]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

I think you summed up rather nicely yourself, Chris. I'm sure that's what most mean by emotional deaths.

Adding to my previous comment, John Marston's death from Red Dead Redemption can very well be regarded as "emotional", in my opinion.

[Leonia]

Don't pull a Wash on me! That was just too much.

That said, I much prefer knowing it's going to happen.. like in BSG, most of the deaths there were predictable but still incredibly emotional because you had seen those characters evolve and grow for such a long period of time. Even the less predictable death of what seemed like a minor character was well-done and in hindsight even that character had lots of development time. Pretty much all of my favourite Sci-Fi deaths are the ones we see coming because we are powerless to stop them.

Drawn out deaths where goodbyes get to be said have the most impact.. like Sheridan in B5, the 10th Doctor in Doctor Who, Roslin in BSG, even that funeral episode of Firefly (oh man that's a tearjerker with the music, but moreso because it signals the death of the entire show more than any specific character).

Modifié par leonia42, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:06 .

[100k]

Chris Priestly wrote...


What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

Obviously in a game where multiple characters have to some times fulfill the same roles, hand crafting each death for certain contexts is just a waste. But how about something similar to this?

Just swapping out the appropriate NPC squad mates for shared blocking.

[crimzontearz]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

oh and Shepard too...no Killing Shep off, That means no replayability for me

Mandatorily killing off the LI's will also kill the replayability for me. Just saying.

agreed

Modifié par crimzontearz, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:10 .

[Ziggy]

What I hate it when it's like: just they die, brief sadface, then back to business as usual.

There should be a lasting impact. Doesn't need to be dramatic or anything, just little things to show they care and remember.

[Liec]

crimzontearz wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

oh and Shepard too...no Killing Shep off means no replayability for me

Mandatorily killing off the LI's will also kill the replayability for me. Just saying.

agreed

Would that be a "Trinity"? 

[S Seraff]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

I say use the wash especially sparingly, use the spock sparingly. deaths need to feel nonarbitrary, even if they're surprising

[Dean_the_Young]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

They both can work, though the degree of difference between the two is often timing. Virmire was unexpected the first time (mostly), but then became a 'I know this is about to happen.'

I don't think either one has a call to 'emotional', but rather the specific type has to work for the character. Characters with a story leading up to it can make a 'Spock' death appropriate. If, say, the Suicide Mission of ME2 had had a point of 'you can send a sniper to assassinate the Collector General and help the team, but He Will Die', then some of the obvious sniper characters would have had more impact than others. Thane is dying, so it comes as a fitting end. Garrus (could have been spun) as making up for failing his squad. Legion makes less sense, since there's obvious future story if he survives. Same setting, three different narrative/emotional impacts... especially since Thane and Garrus are LI.

'Wash' deaths aren't less legitimate, but they are much harder to pull off well. Generally when a character dies, it 'fits' with the narrative exectation. Thane dying in a crowning moment of awesome, for example, fits well because Thane is already dying. We expect it, to some extent. But when a death is too abrupt, there's dissonance: it's like the DM going 'rocks fall, everyone dies' in  D&D. It's too abrupt.

Take it for what it's worth, but my experience a good 'unexpected' death comes from the subversion of an expected death. Alistair sacrificing himself for love in DA:O, for example, was incredibly surprising because you thought you knew how it was going to work (the player dies) and then 'bam' someone else dies. I think of three main types of good 'unexpected' deaths that avoid the 'rocks fall' dissonance.

'Sacrifice denied' is the one Alistair pulled. The subversion is, of course, that someone is expecting death when someone else steps in for them. It makes for great character surprise, later regrets, and is ideal for the sort of 'player effects everyone else' RPG character that Shepard is. If the player influences, oh, Vega, then at a time Shepard is expecting someone else to die then Vega interjects.

'Let your guard down' is when the death occurs after people think the battle is one. This is a classic of end-game boss fights and such: you beat the bosses first form, people celebrate, and then the villain unleashes his true form (and kills someone in the process). This tends to come off as scripted, and is hard to keep a role-playing feel to it, but it's surprising the first time (sorta). Sometimes, however, it can just be the final retaliation of a foe. A Mass Effect 3 equivalent might be if Shepard took down Cerberus to the upmost of the ability... and at the end, the Illusive Man were to assassinate Shepard's Love Interest (but not Shepard) as retaliation.

'The betrayal' is another one that can take a player by surprise. Party members turning is rare if not unheard of, but outright killing someone in the moment is rare and can be an exclamation point to the betrayer's motive, because then the death of person A is tied to the emotions and story of person B, rather than person A alone. Let's make a hypothetical imaginary ME3 scenario. Someone on your crew is probably indoctrinated, but you don't know who. Shepard is about to have sexy time with the ME3 love interest of choice... only instead of the love scene, the traitor strikes, killing the LI! And to emphasize the point, the traitor is a previous LI (either from 1 or 2), for whom a part of the indoctrination's handle is jealousy/anger from being ditched. And now presume that this LI-fratricide ONLY occurs if you changed LI's. LI A's death wasn't expected (they were expecting a romance scene instead), it was player controlled (the player's choice to hop to a new LI), and ties not only into LI A's story and romance, but LI B (the old one's) as well.



Those are some thoughts, anyway. You could probably look at some critics of Halo: Reach: that's a game that went the extra yard for most tragic death in the last half hour.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:22 .

[robtheguru]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

Basically any of the following cover it:

-Spock: As you rightly said
-Optimus Prime: When they killed him in the G1 Movie...many children cried that day (myself included lol)
-Bruce Willis: In Armageddon where he sacrifices himself so Ben Affleck can survive
-T-800: Well anyone who doesn't feel like shedding a tear when Arnold is being lowered into the molten metal...well...

I think it's just a case of anything that comes close to making someone cry would pass for emotional in this case. In terms of Mass Effect 2 the suicide mission wasn't really that emotional if you lost squadmates because it was a case of they are dead...oh. You don't see Shepards reaction to them at all. In the above examples you see the impact the death has on everyone else and it sets the mood. Spock you see kirk, Prime the autobots, Willis you see Affleck and with the T-800 you have John Connor.

Hopefully you understand what i'm saying lol

[Cutlasskiwi]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

I'm torn between seeing the death coming or not. Wash's death is one of the saddest moments I've ever seen in a movie. Not only becasue I did not see it coming, but that it happened to such a likeable and 'non-threatening' person. Watching the rest of the movie almost became torture. But even though it took me really hard and by surprise it's one moment that I will never forget. 

leonia42 wrote... 

Drawn out deaths where goodbyes get to be said have the most impact.. like Sheridan in B5, the 10th Doctor in Doctor Who, Roslin in BSG, even that funeral episode of Firefly (oh man that's a tearjerker with the music, but moreso because it signals the death of the entire show more than any specific character).

Also this. With the 10th Doctor you new it was coming but it still hit really hard. Same thing with Mufasa from The Lion King. I think it all comes down to how the death is handled. Music helps a lot and seeing the people around react to it.  

[Weskerr]

Chris Priestly wrote...


The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

A death that you are not expecting doesn't necessarily have to be of a character you care about. It can be a character that is important to the story. Two examples:

1. Saren shooting himself in the head.

2. One of the main characters in The Naked and the Dead by Norman Mailer. (By the way, this example is in my opinion the most effective unexpected death in all of literature. People who have read the book will know exactly what I'm talking about).

Even though I wasn't emotionally attached to either character, both deaths made my heart jump.

[Leonia]

Something like the ending of Buffy could be epic.

(Gah, trying to avoid spoilers as best as possible when talking about character deaths so trying to be vague).

Modifié par leonia42, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:36 .

[TheOptimist]

Han Shot First wrote...
The deaths of millions or billions is nothing more than a statistic to the player. He or she doesn't have an emotional connection with the people being snuffed out.

If the story is to have any emotional impact on the player, characters that the player cares about also have to die.

Using Star Wars as example, the death of Obi Wan in A New Hope probably had more of an emotional impact on most of us as kids than did the destruction of Alderaan, where millions of people we never see on screen die.

Ah yes, seeing Biggs, Red Leader, etc. die had no impact.  Oh wait, yes it did.  If you feel nothing for planets being wiped out, if your imagination does not incompass the sadness of so many deaths, I can do nothing but feel pity for you.  For that matter, if things like that don't have an impact on a player, why do you think a squadmate dying would?  Especially since it's essentially random chance it'll be a squadmate they actually give a **** about?

[TheOptimist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...
In many ways, 'you don't get to decide everything' is the worst counter argument of all.  Deciding everything is not what we're asking for, no matter how some people try to twist it that way.  We merely ask for the same choice we were given in Mass Effect 2.  Trying to take us to task for asking for an option and writing style the writers already gave us once strikes me as a bit silly.

And what was done ine ME2 is garbage...

Loyality and deaths in Me2 were horribly handled and the writing was average at best.

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it.  I loved the SM and the way things were handled.  We can argue back and forth on the merits of ME2, but the simple truth is that 'you don't get to decide everything' when not only are we not asking for that but they already gave us those choices in a previous game is a specious argument.

I don't care.

There was no logical connection between the LM and the SM deaths. It was done badly. Period. This a satatment of fact.

It was done excellently. Period. This a statement of absolute fact...TIMES INFINITY.

[Darth Krytie]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

I'm still pissed off about Wash, tbh.

The Ashley/Kaiden death in ME1 was emotional for me. My poor heart. I hated having to choose.  I have one request. Please no fridging. I hate when lady characters get fridged just for the sake of getting the big hero to do whatever. Ugh. Alistair's stolen sacrifice was touching, too. Just have it matter and not feel pointless, is all, or egregious. Though, arguing over whether the squad deaths would be egregious in a large scale war is rather silly.

[RAF1940]

I agree 100%.

[lazuli]

Chris Priestly wrote...

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

I'm going to get flamed for this, but I thought the death in Gears of War 2 was well done. 

SPOILERS: Sure, Dom was whining about his wife for the entire game.  That wasn't so great.  But the reunion with Maria was well done, and the euthanasia was particularly tragic.  The first time I witnessed that segment I was playing online with an old friend.  All mic chatter died.

I think I like a bit of foreshadowing, but I don't want it to be obvious or anything.

[RAF1940]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

A death in which I actually care.

[Enmystic]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

Like some people have already stated both are appropriate if their story dictates toward one or the other. 

In terms of ME as long as there is some element of control (Virmire/SM for example), I'm fine.

[TheOptimist]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison.

Your skillful tapdancing around the issue is an inspiration to us all.

So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?

Actually, I always thought the best deaths were those where the person knows they are about to die...and takes as many enemies as they can with them.  Boromir (LotR) was a good example, Capt. Artemis from 300 was a good example, Private Watkins (Starship Troopers, even if that movie was a travesty compared to the book), that kind of death.  I am not in favor of seeing squadmates die, but if they have to go, I'd much rather see them go down swinging.