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Emotional Deaths Please


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#676
Kmead15

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TheZyzyva wrote...

Look Optimist, talk all you want about how much YOU can care about all those numbers, but to the vast majority, and I feel quite comfortable making that statement, they are just nothing but numbers on a screen. If those deaths are to have any real impact, I need to see it, not just be told about it.


I can't speak for others, but the numbers on the screen gave me pause. However, if the game had waxed mauldin and started showing the people killed in the blast, I'd have rolled my eyes.

#677
Golden Owl

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Kmead15 wrote...

TheZyzyva wrote...

Look Optimist, talk all you want about how much YOU can care about all those numbers, but to the vast majority, and I feel quite comfortable making that statement, they are just nothing but numbers on a screen. If those deaths are to have any real impact, I need to see it, not just be told about it.


I can't speak for others, but the numbers on the screen gave me pause. However, if the game had waxed mauldin and started showing the people killed in the blast, I'd have rolled my eyes.


The numbers on the screen represent real feeling beings...as real as Shep and those around him (in game I mean)....So, yes, it is a show stopper...those numbers mean a great deal.

#678
TheZyzyva

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Crimzon, thank you for replying seriously, I really do enjoy these discussions when they're handled well.
Anyways, yes, I will agree that there shouldn't be any 1:1, decide who dies kind of decisions, like on Virmire. Since I do understand that we will have a greater variety of choices (I wasn't trying to sound like I expect ME3 to completely railroad us again, btw) I would like a number of options that ultimately lead to whatever happens, creating a number of possibilities. Does someone always have to die at the end? No, not necessarily. But I also shouldn't be able to see the obvious right answer. I realize that that is pretty much what some of you have been advocating, and I'll admit the likes of you and Zulong have softened my stance considerably. Mostly, it's the more that I think of ways for Bioware to handle it well the more I'm ok with it. Just so long as it's not as cut and dry as SM, which I still say was handled horribly.
I see you pretty much understand where I'm coming from with the endings, but to clarify, I wouldn't feel like "my" ending is devalued from other people liking a different one, but from the fact that I'm playing ME for the enjoyment of the game as much as the enjoyment of the story. As such, I don't want to sacrifice one part of me for the other. IE, I don't want to have to "lose" at the game to get a dramatic story, and I don't want my reward for "winning" to be a flat one. I explained it to Zu better around page 5.
But, as I said, I'm thinking of better and better ways Bioware could handle these issues so my concerns are greatly diminished. Totally not from just you guys, don't be all thinking you won or anything...

#679
TheZyzyva

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Kmead15 wrote...

TheZyzyva wrote...

Look Optimist, talk all you want about how much YOU can care about all those numbers, but to the vast majority, and I feel quite comfortable making that statement, they are just nothing but numbers on a screen. If those deaths are to have any real impact, I need to see it, not just be told about it.


I can't speak for others, but the numbers on the screen gave me pause. However, if the game had waxed mauldin and started showing the people killed in the blast, I'd have rolled my eyes.


I meant I need to see the impact of the deaths, not actually see the deaths themselves. Otherwise I feel like it's an elcor narrating. "With profound sadness: And 300,000 batarians were killed". Specifically show me some batarians confronting Shep, you get the idea. Sounds like that's gonna happen at the trial, but for an example that didn't handle it well look at the Normandy crash sight. Finding Pressly's data pad had an impact, and the flashbacks to the original ship were a nice touch, but actually grabbing those dog tags did nothing for me.

#680
UltimaRai

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Legion 2.5 wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?



:devil:


Like how they killed Prime in the old G1 Movie.

Like how Spark killed Sgt Johnson and died in the Chief's arms at the end of Halo 3

How Noble 6 died on his last stand in Reach

You get the picture


All that and "The Sacrifice" like Fallout 3 and Iron Giant but not with the Main Character.
Also deaths of Important Non-Humans(Aliens,Pets and etc.) should be MASSIVE Tear Jerkers, Like
A Dog named Skip,A Dog of Flanders,and Red Dead Redemption. Well not so much as Red Dead Redemption, but like A Dog of Flanders, where the character has a well developed story and is ended off in a sad emotional way, that affects the viewer/player aswell as other characters in the game.

#681
Sanguinerin

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I prefer situations like Virmire and the Suicide Mission where you have some sort of control. Either we're forced to make a decision between two people (or maybe in this case, two planets?), or a character's survival depends on previous actions. Those are preferable, mostly because it forces someone to live with the consequences of their decisions. I won't go so far as to say that every death must or should be avoidable, but I like having some say in the matter. The amount of people I can't save in Dragon Age II, for example, is a fine example of why I won't replay the game. I don't want to put myself through all of that inevitability again.

The next part of my response will contain SPOILERS.

A death with closure helps a lot. Since Wash was mentioned, I preferred Shepherd Book's final moments in Serenity. Allowing him to get something out in that moment of dying meant something. I kept watching the film uninterrupted. However, when Wash died, I had to pause it. I never saw that coming, and I kind of had to take a moment and go over what just happened.

I'm going to hate myself for going further, actually. I prefer something like the Shepherd. Still, Wash might have been far more motivational, had Serenity been a game. That sudden, unexpectedness of his death could be a huge driving factor behind why you have to keep fighting. It's like when Garrus drops down during his recruitment mission after the gunship comes into play. Those deaths can be a catalyst to keep going. Thankfully, Garrus didn't die there, but the thought that he might have inspires fighting harder (and once your enemy is dead, seeing if your friend is alive or dead).

I think that I only have one request regarding deaths. I don't want someone who was romanced to just die. If I romance Miranda, for example, I don't want her being shot down and that's the end of it. For closure's sake, let love interests get a goodbye. Even if it's Miranda over a comm link telling Shepard goodbye because she knows that she won't come out of whatever mission she's doing, that's better than nothing. I think romanced characters deserve a goodbye.

Also, I hope that companions or love interests that die get closure in another way. If female Shepard and Kaidan are on the battlefield and Kaidan gets killed, I understand that she can't just stop fighting. It happens a lot where a companion, friend, etc. gets killed in the journey, but there's no real grief or mourning. Coming back to Serenity, the scene at the end with the group standing around the graves of those who were killed was powerful to me as well, especially Zoe's part in it.

So, to sum that up:

Please, no "Wash" deaths for love interests. Some kind of goodbye would be nice. Although I'm not against them. They're certainly striking in their own right.

Virmire "this or that" decisions are great, and so is the Suicide Mission. You have control, but in the former you have to live with the fact that you can't save everyone, and in the latter you learn that the decisions that you make matter.

I like goodbyes. I've never seen Wrath of Khan so I can't comment directly on that, but I like having that opportunity. Here's a scenario on how the Suicide Mission could have played out that I would have probably cried over but I would recognize as an acceptable death: imagine that the loyal tech expert climbs through the vents and successfully gets Shepard and company through the doors... But they're trapped in the overheating vents. Over the comm, they get to say goodbye, but they did succeed in their task. That situation would have been heartbreaking because I would have known that I chose that person for the task, and while they completed it and were the best (or one of the best), they still died from it. Picking the right person for the job doesn't always have to mean that succeeding doesn't come with a price.

Another example of character death? The very first one that I experienced: Aerith. Oh, how I cried. That's another example of the effects of an unexpected death. But those moments, like I said above, can really give you the drive to keep going.

As I began with, though, I prefer saving people. I hope that the deaths will be used sparingly. I expect people to die, even those close to Shepard. Still, unless we've just made all of the wrong decisions along the journey, that the deaths and sacrifices of people we've come to care about aren't dramatically high. If we made wrong decisions, and characters close to us have to sacrifice themselves to make up for that, then that's also an acceptable approach.

I'll make an example of what I mean by that, and then I'll stop rambling.

Say we didn't complete the UNC mineral collection quest. Let's say in Mass Effect 3, we're on a besieged colony that never received certain supplies because there weren't enough resources to go around. This colony now can't sustain itself in an attack from the Reapers, so Ashley takes a nearby warship of some kind and does a suicide run with it into a Reaper vessel.

That's not a perfectly thought-out example, but that's what I mean in terms of a companion or person we care about picking up the slack and sacrificing themselves because of something that we, the player, as Shepard, either failed to do or accomplish, or made the wrong decision. I think that it really would be a powerful statement if something such as the mineral collection, a quest that could seem rather out of the way or insignificant, really had an impact in such a great way.

Alright, I think that's as much as I can organize from thought to response right now.

#682
Golden Owl

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Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?




:devil:

Oh no, no, no...you did not just go there...:blink:....Never mind us little people Mr Priestly, you see nothing here...no ideas, nothing...Move along....=]...:whistle:

#683
RocketManSR2

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After reading this topic a bit, there are two camps:

1) They want to see a bloodbath with squad members dropping like flies and we have no say in the matter.

2) Squad members only die if we make a (or several) "wrong" or stupid choices during or before ME3.

I count myself in the second group. If I have to choose between two loved party members at any point, I will eject the disc and get rid of the game.

- Not to sound cold, but I really didn't know Kaiden or Ashley long enough to feel the same way with the Virmire choice.
- Thinking about the moment where Garrus got badly wounded during his recruitment mission made me come to my choice of wanting nobody to die if I can help it. It's still tough to watch that scene even though I know he'll be okay and I can keep him alive in the SM to continue to fight at my side. Having one where I know he won't ever get up is too much.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 02 septembre 2011 - 05:35 .


#684
GreenDragon37

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LI deaths should be on the table, however they should be avoidable. For example, if an LI is actually your LI, then he/she has a greater chance of surviving. However, choices you decide over the course of ME1, ME2 and ME3 (mostly ME3) can stack points against them and get them closer to the chopping block. Like if you cheated on your ME1 LI for an ME2 LI. Both can take some hits.

Reguardless, I still believe that some deaths should be unavoidable, but they should be based on decisions you made. And when they happen, we need to have the option to actually feel emotional about it, or just move on.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 02 septembre 2011 - 05:30 .


#685
Apocsapel91

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I want deaths like the ones in Lost. The kind that you know that it's going to happen but you can't do anything to save them. Nothing is worse than helplessness.

#686
Lotion Soronarr

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RocketManSR2 wrote...

After reading this topic a bit, there are two camps:

1) They want to see a bloodbath with squad members dropping like flies and we have no say in the matter.

2) Squad members only die if we make a (or several) "wrong" or stupid choices during or before ME3.

I count myself in the second group. If I have to choose between two loved party members at any point, I will eject the disc and get rid of the game.


Lol..talk about butthurt.
"If I have to choose between X and Y I'll throw the game in a trach can!"
Indeed. How can Bio DARE to give you difficult choices and create a relistic, dark atmosphere?

Beh..If you can't cope with characters dying in a game, I have to wonder how well-adjusted you are in real life.

Eitehr way, I want Shep to be bale to affect party members deaths only if it makes sense.

For example, if at the start of the game the reapers attack several planets, you can't be everywhere at once. You go to one, they bombard the others. In that case, you really cannot influence the survival of any party member on those planet. Shep's not there.

And mind you, sometimes people dying from a bullet no one saw coming - wihout any last words or anything - can be even more impacting than long goodbye speches.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:08 .


#687
Someone With Mass

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Hey, Lotion?

There's a difference between coping with death, and wanting it.

Learn something for once.

#688
Lotion Soronarr

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Hey, Lotion?

There's a difference between coping with death, and wanting it.

Learn something for once.



And there's a difference between coping with detah and living in denial too. You could learn that.

#689
RocketManSR2

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lol..talk about butthurt.
"If I have to choose between X and Y I'll throw the game in a trach can!"
Indeed. How can Bio DARE to give you difficult choices and create a relistic, dark atmosphere?

Beh..If you can't cope with characters dying in a game, I have to wonder how well-adjusted you are in real life.

Eitehr way, I want Shep to be bale to affect party members deaths only if it makes sense.

For example, if at the start of the game the reapers attack several planets, you can't be everywhere at once. You go to one, they bombard the others. In that case, you really cannot influence the survival of any party member on those planet. Shep's not there.

And mind you, sometimes people dying from a bullet no one saw coming - wihout any last words or anything - can be even more impacting than long goodbye speches.


You fall into the first group. That is your opinion. Btw, my butt feels just fine, thank you for your concern. I've lost enough family in my life to know what helplessness feels like. I play games to get away from reality for awhile, not be reminded of it.

#690
Someone With Mass

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And there's a difference between coping with detah and living in denial too. You could learn that.


Oh, I live in denial now?

I'm fully aware what death means and implies.

That doesn't mean that I have accept your incredibly weak and pathetic "ITZ WARZ EVRYTHING GOES11!!!" excuse to everything.

#691
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And there's a difference between coping with detah and living in denial too. You could learn that.


Oh, I live in denial now?

I'm fully aware what death means and implies.

That doesn't mean that I have accept your incredibly weak and pathetic "ITZ WARZ EVRYTHING GOES11!!!" excuse to everything.

Whoa,whoa,whoa,whoa,whoa...no need to get logical on the man.

#692
Someone With Mass

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Just to get it out there, I don't need a game to be a reminder of how painful it can be to lose someone close to me in real life.

#693
Lotion Soronarr

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MrFob wrote...

Didn't read much in this thread, just want to answer to evil Chris' call for opinions:
I though Wash's death in Serenity was about the only part of the movie that was really badly handled. The only good thing I can say about it is that it definitely was not cliche because it was so unexpected but other than that, I didn't like it at all. It was comparable to the deaths in the suicide mission where there is just so much action going on that there is no time to go into it and see the characters deal with the situation and it is also not really addressed later on.
Spocks death in Star Trek II very cliched but I still liked it better none the less. It gives the audience time to absorb and think.
I think his should happen, even if it is delayed due to the action that might be going on at the time. That is something ME should still work on.


Wash was one of my favorite characters. I didn't want to see him die, but there's no denying the scene had one hell of an impact. Partially because of was so unexpected.
It served to illustrate the chaos even better. In war, you often don't have time to properly mourn your fallen comrade. There's time for that once the fighting is done.

#694
Lotion Soronarr

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Just to get it out there, I don't need a game to be a reminder of how painful it can be to lose someone close to me in real life.


And I don't need a game to shower me with rainbows and puppies either. Escapism into perfection-land is for the weak.

#695
Lotion Soronarr

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RocketManSR2 wrote...

You fall into the first group. That is your opinion. Btw, my butt feels just fine, thank you for your concern. I've lost enough family in my life to know what helplessness feels like. I play games to get away from reality for awhile, not be reminded of it.


No. I want SOME say in the matter, but not total say.

And I play games to be immersed in the world. If a world fels cheap, I cannot immerse myself.

#696
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Just to get it out there, I don't need a game to be a reminder of how painful it can be to lose someone close to me in real life.


And I don't need a game to shower me with rainbows and puppies either. Escapism into perfection-land is for the weak.

Why is it rainbows and puppies to not want your squad to die but expecting millions-billions of others to die, you guys with your asinine "sunshine and rainbows" comment,it's pathetic.

#697
Massadonious1

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Escapism into perfection-land is for the weak.


<_<

#698
Someone With Mass

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And I don't need a game to shower me with rainbows and puppies either. Escapism into perfection-land is for the weak.


Wow, you actually think that a game makes you stronger and better than other people?

#699
Lotion Soronarr

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And there's a difference between coping with detah and living in denial too. You could learn that.


Oh, I live in denial now?

I'm fully aware what death means and implies.

That doesn't mean that I have accept your incredibly weak and pathetic "ITZ WARZ EVRYTHING GOES11!!!" excuse to everything.


Unfortunately for you, that "excuse" is the truth. :P

And it has a hulluva more weight than your "Waaah! SWM DO NOT WANT!"

#700
Lotion Soronarr

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And I don't need a game to shower me with rainbows and puppies either. Escapism into perfection-land is for the weak.


Wow, you actually think that a game makes you stronger and better than other people?


No, just you.
But then again, that's harldy an achievment.:devil: