Aller au contenu

Photo

Emotional Deaths Please


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
896 réponses à ce sujet

#751
Lotion Soronarr

Lotion Soronarr
  • Members
  • 14 481 messages

Someone With Mass wrote...

GodWood wrote...
There's a reason why the death of a MAJOR character is usually a shock.


It can't be a shock if it's predicted. Which 100% of the character deaths in ME3 are, since we all know that some will die somehow. That does not make it a shock in any way. That makes it more like a lottery.

 


And every one of use can die at any time. You motehr, brother, significant other..they dan die tomorrow in a car accident. You know this. Yet it's not any less of a shock when ti happens, now is it?

#752
Undertone

Undertone
  • Members
  • 779 messages

Someone With Mass wrote...

Han Shot First wrote... 


Why is it rainbows and puppies to not want your squad to die but expecting millions-billions of others to die, you guys with your asinine "sunshine and rainbows" comment,it's pathetic.


This was addressed earlier in the thread.

All those millions or billions of people dying don't appear on screen.  They are a statistic rattled off by the Codex guy or some random news report. Shepard, and by extension the player, has no emotional connection to them.

Put it this way: If you open up the newspaper and see an obituary for someone you didn't know, at best maybe you think their passing is sad or unforunate. But you wouldn't truly mourn that person because you didn't know him or her. But if that person was a friend or relative, no doubt the grief over their passing would be profound.

For the story to truly have an emotional impact on the player, some characters that the player has come to know & like have to die.


Then again, we don't know if we'll see many of those people die. Just that kid in the vents dying about five minutes later caused a huge ruckus on the fourm not long ago.


I couldn't care less about some random kid that I see for the first time or for that matter kajilion civilians dying. I care about the squad and from them specific people at that. With that in mind, ME3 will not hit home if nobody from my squad dies and it's a goddamn full scale galactic war. Not just some mission or assignment.

And if you haven't recognized by now Something With Mass is 80% of the time a troll for whom it's impossible to conceive any opinion or other way of thinking which results in pointless arguments where he will use troll logic. I dunno why I still continue to argue with him other then for fun. 

Modifié par Undertone, 02 septembre 2011 - 11:57 .


#753
k177sh0t

k177sh0t
  • Members
  • 687 messages
I wonder if Mark Meer is capable of doing "emotional vocals", been hearing the same tone of his voice since ME1 and ME2

#754
Someone With Mass

Someone With Mass
  • Members
  • 38 560 messages

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And every one of use can die at any time. You motehr, brother, significant other..they dan die tomorrow in a car accident. You know this. Yet it's not any less of a shock when ti happens, now is it?


Are you seriously comparing the events in real life to a video game?

That's stupid on it's own level, but no, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone close in ME3 dies, because it's been told over and over again that sacrifices may or may not have to be made.

#755
mopotter

mopotter
  • Members
  • 3 743 messages

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

To take a different tack here, I'll tell what would be cool for me. If decisions in the first or second game had dramatic life-or-death consequences in the third game.

So if you didn't spill the beans on Tali's father and made the right assignments in the SM then Tali lives. However, if you advocated for war on the ship, Tali gets into a conflict with the Geth and dies.

I'd be fine with that. That would make a flawless victory much more challenging and interesting.


This is somehting I'd also like to see.

I have to admit though, that I don't want all of my paragon decisions to bring good things, and all of my renegade decisions to bring bad ones, I'd like a mixture.  Even some of the nutral decisions, like ralling the crowd, I'd like to have something come from that.  All of my decisions, paragon or renegade were made for a reason.  

I don't feel that I have an "evil" Shepard, I have one very focused on the job, end justifies the means Shepard. 

#756
Kabanya101

Kabanya101
  • Members
  • 473 messages

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And every one of use can die at any time. You motehr, brother, significant other..they dan die tomorrow in a car accident. You know this. Yet it's not any less of a shock when ti happens, now is it?


Are you seriously comparing the events in real life to a video game?

That's stupid on it's own level, but no, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone close in ME3 dies, because it's been told over and over again that sacrifices may or may not have to be made.


I gurantee they will have a point in the game where you either sacrifice your LI or something else.
 
Kind of like the suicide mission, where the team breaks up into two firesquads. You either push forward to save your LI, or go back to save the three/five members of the other fireteam.

#757
Someone With Mass

Someone With Mass
  • Members
  • 38 560 messages

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I noticed that too.
Yesterday he quoted me and then started rambling about something that had abolutely nothing to do with what he quoted.
Lack of sleep or drugs I wager.


And you have a distinct lack of intelligent contribution to anything beyond petty insults.

So you should just shut the hell up.

#758
mopotter

mopotter
  • Members
  • 3 743 messages

TheZyzyva wrote...


But, as I said, I'm thinking of better and better ways Bioware could handle these issues so my concerns are greatly diminished. Totally not from just you guys, don't be all thinking you won or anything...



I don't think there is a "win" in this.  We all know BioWare is going to do what they want, and I, for one, know I'm not going to like every decision they make.   But I'm hoping there are enough things I do like to outweigh what I don't.  :wizard:

#759
Someone With Mass

Someone With Mass
  • Members
  • 38 560 messages

Kabanya101 wrote...

I gurantee they will have a point in the game where you either sacrifice your LI or something else.
 
Kind of like the suicide mission, where the team breaks up into two firesquads. You either push forward to save your LI, or go back to save the three/five members of the other fireteam.


I'd rather like if they didn't, but it sounds like it'd happen. Unless the LI is one of the characters that can be dead by ME3, because I doubt Bioware would spend resources to make something that big to please just a fraction of the players.

That's my opinion, at least.

#760
David Falkayn

David Falkayn
  • Members
  • 35 messages

Chris Priestly wrote...


What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?



:devil:


For me, it's what works best for the story you're trying to tell.  Sometimes the "Spock" type death has the biggest punch--other times the "Wash" type--still other times, maybe another type of death scene would have more impact.  I can't give you an exact answer, because i'm not the one writing this story--this is your baby--I'm just along for the ride.  :)

You guys have earned my faith and trust though--I have faith that if one or more emotional deaths are necessary to the plot that you'll carry them off in a powerful and gripping way that will leave me both gasping for breath and moved.  In other words--just do what you guys do best and it'll be just fine.

#761
Lotion Soronarr

Lotion Soronarr
  • Members
  • 14 481 messages

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I noticed that too.
Yesterday he quoted me and then started rambling about something that had abolutely nothing to do with what he quoted.
Lack of sleep or drugs I wager.


And you have a distinct lack of intelligent contribution to anything beyond petty insults.

So you should just shut the hell up.


Image IPB

#762
Medhia Nox

Medhia Nox
  • Members
  • 5 066 messages
I believe that the beginning of Virmire was very well done. When you send your troops out - there is an indication of danger, but no indication that you'll be making the choices you're going to make toward the end of the scenario.

But - I felt that the conversation, albeit short, cheapened the death slightly. If I recall correctly - Ashley (the one who always dies in my games) is on a gunnery tower or some such.

I think that Shepard should have been talking to her - and then, in the background - the tower just explodes and radio contact goes silent. Perhaps with Shepard yelling into the communicator - only to be cut off by Kaidan or Joker telling you that the bomb needs to be protected.

Of course - for Kaidan, it would be a little trickier. But - let's say you're heading to save Ashley and you a similar even occurs - Kaidan tells you the bomb is set and that he's headed to the extraction point. Then a series of explosions rock the area between Kaidan and you and the communicator goes does.

Whatever the case - I don't like sappy, melodramatic conversations: "Oh, Commander - we had good times yeah? We really gave 'em hell yeah?" blah blah blah. It DOES have its place - and CAN be useful and effective...

There's an excellent death in Buffy the Vampire Slayer ("Wash" in Firefly is another good one) - where Buffy comes home after a day of kicking ass and wining - to find her mom splayed across the couch very dead. And then the show just ends for the week...

That's a powerful death.

A silly movie (though fun) has an excellent quote the exemplifies everything I believe about death in storytelling:

"When King Lear dies in Act V, do you know what Shakespeare has written? He's written "He dies." That's all, nothing more. No fanfare, no metaphor, no brilliant final words. The culmination of the most influential work of dramatic literature is "He dies." It takes Shakespeare, a genius, to come up with "He dies." And yet every time I read those two words, I find myself overwhelmed with dysphoria. And I know it's only natural to be sad, but not because of the words "He dies." but because of the life we saw prior to the words. "

#763
Someone With Mass

Someone With Mass
  • Members
  • 38 560 messages

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Thanks for proving my point.;)

#764
Siegdrifa

Siegdrifa
  • Members
  • 1 884 messages

Kabanya101 wrote...

I gurantee they will have a point in the game where you either sacrifice your LI or something else.
 
Kind of like the suicide mission, where the team breaks up into two firesquads. You either push forward to save your LI, or go back to save the three/five members of the other fireteam.


The problem is, it will work only if you are supposed to have it + they have already done that, that was vermire, you where supposed to choose between your "friend" and your "lover". It was a real joke for me since i didn't cared much for both of them, doesn't matter how meaningfull and important their death.

Sacrifice you LI... i don't have an li
then ...
Sacrifice your friend... not sure i have one ...
no impact at all.

It could end like ME2 problem, a character can die here ? no problem.... who i don't care the most already?


A meaningful death for a not cared character... no impact.
So what ? if it's about impact and shock, it should be on the most popular characters no ? for what ? bother the fan of the character while pleasing those who hated him / she ? not a great move.
It should be possible for those who want's to play a dramatic plathrough but it should remain a possibility.

Canon death can't have the same impact on everybody and it will be easy to figure out when it will occur during the game, so there won't be much surprise.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 02 septembre 2011 - 01:40 .


#765
crimzontearz

crimzontearz
  • Members
  • 16 781 messages

TheZyzyva wrote...
Crimzon, thank you for replying seriously, I really do enjoy these discussions when they're handled well.
Anyways, yes, I will agree that there shouldn't be any 1:1, decide who dies kind of decisions, like on Virmire. Since I do understand that we will have a greater variety of choices (I wasn't trying to sound like I expect ME3 to completely railroad us again, btw) I would like a number of options that ultimately lead to whatever happens, creating a number of possibilities. Does someone always have to die at the end? No, not necessarily. But I also shouldn't be able to see the obvious right answer. I realize that that is pretty much what some of you have been advocating, and I'll admit the likes of you and Zulong have softened my stance considerably. Mostly, it's the more that I think of ways for Bioware to handle it well the more I'm ok with it. Just so long as it's not as cut and dry as SM, which I still say was handled horribly.
I see you pretty much understand where I'm coming from with the endings, but to clarify, I wouldn't feel like "my" ending is devalued from other people liking a different one, but from the fact that I'm playing ME for the enjoyment of the game as much as the enjoyment of the story. As such, I don't want to sacrifice one part of me for the other. IE, I don't want to have to "lose" at the game to get a dramatic story, and I don't want my reward for "winning" to be a flat one. I explained it to Zu better around page 5.

But, as I said, I'm thinking of better and better ways Bioware could handle these issues so my concerns are greatly diminished. Totally not from just you guys, don't be all thinking you won or anything...



this is what happens when I have to go to sleep...Bam...4 pages missed.

Assuming this is your last reply to me I'll go on.

Even tho you say the existence of a "perfect" ending gives you the existence of "right" and wrong choices that is not entirely true because ultimately right and wrong are subjective terms. A right choice "for me" might be the choice that leads to a character's survival, for you it may be the opposite because you, for the sake of your own story, want character X to die. Such choices are not always handled foolishly either. Hell, Zaeed Massani is a super veteran....yet even tho he has so much experience he fails as a fireteam leader. Thane broke into one of the highest security buildings on Ilium without being seen or setting off a single alarm yet he fails as a tech specialist, Miranda has some seriously advance biotics and has been genetically engineered to be even better yet she fails as a Biotic Specialist (those are just examples).

At this point you admitted you are ok with different degrees of imperfection. So, as long as character deaths X Y and Z are inevitable (for instance) you have no problem with people choosing a more tragic ending or people preventing all other catastrophic outcomes besides X Y and Z even tho the very fact that anything else can be prevented would bring you back to the existence of "right" choices according to your previous statement. So....it's ok if some tragedy is imposed but not if we can prevent it all by choice? "some" right choices (your previous definition of right) are ok and it's ok for people to choose the other option to add tragedy if they want but ONLY as long as there are some real no win situations so other cannot have an ending true to their likings?

sounds a little hypocritical..... and as I said before once you are choosing to further the story the way you desire there are no right or wrong choices.

#766
nitefyre410

nitefyre410
  • Members
  • 8 944 messages

Chris Priestly wrote...

Interesting thread. I'm not going to talk about who, if anyone, does or does not die in ME3 (notice how I skirted that? Didja? I'm a professional obfuscator), it is interesting for discusison. So, in your opinions, what IS an "emotional death"? Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?



:devil:

 


Well  I'm glad you asked that  question  sir.   Emotional death for me is a death that moves  or an impact on the MC and death has a purpose  in the story and its not a death for the  need of the drama.   The death of   The Boss at the end of MGS 3 is a(IMO) perfect example of the emotional impacting death. Her  death   was the single defining moment in the entire series - you come to find out in  MGS 4 that is the  defining  reason and motivating force behind the entire  series.    The affect of her death change Snake(Big Boss)  for the rest of  his life.   Other Examples are   Nighcrawler and  Cable  in  Second  Coming  the affect that those deaths had on Hope and the rest of the team is going to be felt for a long time.   Emotional Death in my eyes is a death the ends up  in some why defining  the main character. The deaths of  Jiraya and Asuma  are two  other good examles  for the impact they had Naruto and Shikamaru  and how those two characters changed the  from  point.    The death  of  Buffy mother is another good  example - it   rattled Buffy's character  very deeply.     

The  hill that  I think Mass Effect has to climb is that we players dictate how Shepards responds and how he is affected by the death of a squadmate.  Player A is goign  to have Shepard X react this way  while   Player B is going to have Shepard  Y react  this way.   

Edit: yeah I know I'm late but I am out of town  ATM  :P

Modifié par nitefyre410, 02 septembre 2011 - 02:02 .


#767
Someone With Mass

Someone With Mass
  • Members
  • 38 560 messages
To be brutally honest, I felt nothing when Wash got killed. I just thought the whole thing was a little too weak and it happened too abruptly for me to really sink into it.

It's like when Kat died. I was like: "Huh. That happened."

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 02 septembre 2011 - 02:30 .


#768
Raspberry_

Raspberry_
  • Members
  • 61 messages
i want to choose if someone dies. like in me2 if you do your stuff well you save them all if not well not. i don't want deaths i have no power to do something about.

#769
Remus Artega

Remus Artega
  • Members
  • 605 messages
From top of my head I can remember one quite emotional death and that was in Witcher 2 when Foltest died...sometimes silence (or music in background) is better that overdone cliché of heroic goodbye...

#770
stonbw1

stonbw1
  • Members
  • 891 messages

Raspberry wrote...

i want to choose if someone dies. like in me2 if you do your stuff well you save them all if not well not. i don't want deaths i have no power to do something about.


I understand your point, but isn't that a bit "God-like"?  In 'real' life, the times that a normal person has control over life and death are fairly rare and are often outside of our control.  If this video game is supposed to conjur emotional results, it will have to emulate real life and thus, those life-death consequences should really be out of your hand to truly achieve those emotional results. That's my preference: Virmire (lack of choice) >SM (manipulated).

#771
stonbw1

stonbw1
  • Members
  • 891 messages
But as between Chris' analogy (Spock vs. whoever), both would be great. I still remember Virmire: I sat stunned for about 5 mins as to the decision I was about to make. Also, (in a movie), you remember Executive Decision with Kurt Russell and Segal? To see one of those characters get killed off at the relative begining was pretty shocking (which is a good emotion for these purposes).

#772
Srsface

Srsface
  • Members
  • 16 messages
I liked the Virmire decision, I think it was well done, the decision coming up abruptly. The main problem was that I wasn't terribly invested in either character, so the impact was minimal.

I don't mind character death, but I WILL mind if it's predictable. If I end up having to split the squad at some point, I will be expecting having to make a choice in the back of my mind due to Virmire, and having to choose will lose significant impact. What I'd like to see are "safe" characters having the chance to get killed. Characters like Anderson or Joker, hell, maybe even Chakwas. Having emotional deaths, though, just depends too much on how invested the player is in the character, and as such just will either have a great deal of impact or none at all. I won't care much if Tali ends up biting it, while on the other hand some people...

#773
Estelindis

Estelindis
  • Members
  • 3 699 messages

Chris Priestly wrote...

Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?
:devil:

Only just saw your question, so pardon my tardiness.

I think the two types of death that you listed are good examples.  However, it's worth pointing out that each served a distinct narrative purpose.  The "Spock" centred around giving characters (and fans) the chance to properly bid farewell to someone to whom they'd become immensely attached.  The "Wash," on the other hand, served to totally upset narrative expectations; immediately after his shockingly random, totally unforecasted death, the vast majority of people who watched Serenity (even long-term Whedon fans like myself, already familiar with his penchant for killing beloved characters) found their view shifted from the typical complacent sense that the heroes will ultimately make it through their challenges to the sincere belief that not one of the main characters was now safe.  Because Wash died in that way, anyone could die.  Accordingly, it's not so much that his death was an emotional one per se (excluding the emotion of shock as well as the pain that anyone who'd really loved his character would naturally feel) but rather that it led to an immense intensification of all emotions for the rest of the film.

In both cases, however, characters who cared deeply for the dead person showed an emotional reaction.  "Spock" is obvious; in the case of "Wash," Zoe didn't have time to mourn properly because of the immediacy of the danger they were in, but her anguish still showed in how she became more cavalier about danger and went into a bit of a rage when fighting the Reavers.  No matter what the circumstances, then, Shepard has to show an emotional reaction to the death of someone s/he cares about.  It can be in any way that's appropriate to the situation s/he's in, but it has to be there.

The trouble with this, I think, is that most of the Mass Effect characters don't have strong bonds to each other, only to Shepard.  So, if a few of them die, we're just going to see lots of reactions from Shepard, and it could become difficult for the devs to maintain a feeling of freshness if we've already seen Shep mourning a character's death not too long ago.  There has to be a way of making the situations different.  If someone has already died in a mission, and then someone else dies, Shepard should react differently than s/he would if only the second character had died; Shepard should be shown as reeling from yet another blow, rather than having received his or her first blow.  While this might seem daunting given the number of possible permutations in the squad, a situation like ME2's suicide mission actually had just a small number of distinct points where a character could die.  At any of these points, a script could check how many other people had died up to this point and alter Shepard's reaction accordingly.  And, of course, if at any point Shepard's LI died, this event would have to ripple through the rest of the mission.  Later cutscenes should show Shepard struggling to accomplish the task at hand in spite of the pain of losing a loved one.

I am sure Bioware developers are much better than we are at imagining clever ways to do all this in a streamlined way.  For instance, the close-up on Shepard's face when the bomb detonates on Virmire conveyed to me very effectively, without even using words, that Shepard was thinking about the person s/he had left behind, was united with them in the last moments, saluted their heroic sacrifice and wished there was some way to save them.  It's so clear because it's uncomplicated: all Shepard does is watch in silence, and we can tell by the fact that s/he's still in armour that s/he came straight up to the bridge to look at the planet below, without the least care for anything else.  Or, at least, that's how I see it.  But I could see all that because a space had been cleared for it.  Sometimes, silence is the best way of conveying emotion, because it lets people put all the things they're feeling at the time into the character they're roleplaying.

One other point: Shepard must not give up on the dead/dying character without even checking to see if there's some way to save them, or if it's possible to go back for them without compromising the mission.  To do such a thing would add to an impression that Shepard didn't really care, which is just what we want to avoid.

Modifié par Estelindis, 02 septembre 2011 - 05:32 .


#774
FlyinElk212

FlyinElk212
  • Members
  • 2 598 messages

Chris Priestly wrote...

Off the top of my head, thinking of recent Sci-Fi films, there are basically 2 sorts of "death".

One is the "Spock". When, as in Wrath of Khan, you get an emotional death where the person knows they are about to die or are dying and say a goodbye of some sort.

The otehr is the "Wash". Where you don't see the death coming, as in Serenity, so when it happens it is a huge blow to the heart that someone you care about has been killed.

What do YOU mean when you want an emotional death?
:devil:


Both great examples that serve two completely different purposes.

The "Spock" death provides closure for audiences. They know that their time with their beloved character is coming to an end, so the "Spock" death allows audiences to come to terms with that fact, and deal with all of their emotions concerning that character within that character's final moments.

The "Wash" death shows the audience the impact of the character's death on the world around them. It doesn't allow them time to have their feelings dealt within said character, thus emphasizing the cruelty and direness of the current situation. This death is less about the character, and more about the actual loss of the character.

The "Spock" death instigates emotion in audiences.  The "Wash" death portrays the audience's emotion to themselves. In my eyes, a great "emotional" death does both.

#775
Nizzemancer

Nizzemancer
  • Members
  • 1 541 messages

Raspberry wrote...

i want to choose if someone dies. like in me2 if you do your stuff well you save them all if not well not. i don't want deaths i have no power to do something about.


This a million times over.