896 réponses à ce sujet

[flixeron]

Nizzemancer wrote...

Raspberry wrote...

i want to choose if someone dies. like in me2 if you do your stuff well you save them all if not well not. i don't want deaths i have no power to do something about.

This a million times over.

Agreed!! I want it like ME1 where I had to choose. gives it more impact!

[Han Shot First]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

I'm thankful that those who want an 'everyone lives' ending where not involved in any way with the making of the movies Gladiator,  Glory, Terminator 2, Saving Private Ryan, Spartacus or Road to Peridition.  Instead the protagonist would have lived in all of them (history be damned in a few of them) and they wouldn't be half as good as they are.

I'm not sure why have some have difficulty with the characters being killed off, so long as it makes sense in the story and is executed well.

When you picked up Mass Effect, did you think it resembled Gladiator, Spartacus, Road to Perdition, Glory, or Saving Private Ryan? And in T2, the main character was Sarah Connor, who lived.

I used the movies as examples because there are all good movies in which the hero dies, not because they resemble Mass Effect. I'm not sure why some people are so opposed to squad mates or Shepard dying in Mass Effect 3. If it is done right and makes sense in the story, what is the problem? Would anyone seriously argue for example, that Gladiator would have been a better film if Maximus lived?

ME was based on Star Wars, the original BSG, Blade Runner, Star Trek and B5, where the main characters pretty much all do live (although the intended ending of Blade Runner had the LI die but she was doomed from the start).

Star Trek may not be the best exaple, since Kirk dies. But even so just because Mass Effect take some inspiration from other works of Sci Fi, it doesn't mean that ME3 should be a carbon copy of Return of the Jedi or Babylon 5.

For the story to have some emotional impact some characters that player has come to know & like will have to die.

[Lunatic LK47]

Han Shot First wrote...



I used the movies as examples because there are all good movies in which the hero dies, not because they resemble Mass Effect. I'm not sure why some people are so opposed to squad mates or Shepard dying in Mass Effect 3.

For the main fact we already invested hundreds of hours into this franchise? I already gave away Fallout 3 halfway into the game after knowing everything I did for was for nothing.  I prefer Mass Effect for the main fact I felt like I was the hero of the story, and I'm not interested in being railroaded into having myself and my friends die just because "it suits the plot."

For the story to have some emotional impact some characters that player has come to know & like will have to die.

Just because you feel this way doesn't mean anyone else will. I hate being railroaded, period. I don't understand why you have to go out of your way to make everyone else's lives miserable just because "It fits Mass Effect."

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:38 .

[Han Shot First]

For the main fact we already invested hundreds of hours into this franchise? I already gave away Fallout 3 halfway into the game after knowing everything I did for was for nothing.  I prefer Mass Effect for the main fact I felt like I was the hero of the story, and I'm not interested in being railroaded into having myself and my friends die just because "it suits the plot."

Because I've invested hundreds of hours into this franchise I want to see some of the squadmates die, and possibly Shepard as well, depending on the player's actions. There should be a little tragedy and the story shouldn't be all butterflies and rainbows.

Though I do agree that the player shouldn't be railroaded into scripted deaths. Any deaths that occur should occur based on choices the player makes, or Shepard's actions throughout the game. Shepard's actions should affect who lives and dies, but death itself should be unavoidable.

Just because you feel this way doesn't mean anyone else will. I hate being railroaded, period. I don't understand why you have to go out of your way to make everyone else's lives miserable just because "It fits Mass Effect."

That assumes that everyone shares your opinion and want everyone to live. They don't. The community pretty much split on that point. Second, why would squadmates deaths make you miserable? When Kaidan or Ashley died at Virmire did you rage quit the game?

Modifié par Han Shot First, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:55 .

[TheOptimist]

Han Shot First wrote...

For the main fact we already invested hundreds of hours into this franchise? I already gave away Fallout 3 halfway into the game after knowing everything I did for was for nothing.  I prefer Mass Effect for the main fact I felt like I was the hero of the story, and I'm not interested in being railroaded into having myself and my friends die just because "it suits the plot."

Because I've invested hundreds of hours into this franchise I want to see some of the squadmates die, and possibly Shepard as well, depending on the player's actions. There should be a little tragedy and the story shouldn't be all butterflies and rainbows.

For perhaps the 100th time, so choose to allow those character's deaths.  No one makes you save everyone, and no one here that I've seen has advocated that.  You can have all the tragedy you want.  You just have to admit while you're playing that that's the story you want.  A human, fallable Shepard, who screws up sometimes.

Though I do agree that the player shouldn't be railroaded into scripted deaths. Any deaths that occur should occur based on choices the player makes, or Shepard's actions throughout the game. Shepard's actions should affect who lives and dies, but death itself should be unavoidable.

That's not a choice, it's russian roulette.

That assumes that everyone shares your opinion and want everyone to live. They don't. The community pretty much split on that point. Second, why would squadmates deaths make you miserable? When Kaidan or Ashley died at Virmire did you rage quit the game?

Thus why choice is so much better.  You go your way, we go ours.  Your side is the only one advocating an all or nothing take here.  And I highly doubt anyone still on the boards rage quit over Virmire, they're still Mass Effect fans.  Those people probably never played ME2 to realize how much better things got.

Modifié par TheOptimist, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:05 .

[TheZyzyva]

crimzontearz wrote...

this is what happens when I have to go to sleep...Bam...4 pages missed.
*Walloftextpreventionsnip*

Yup.

Let me better explain what I would like to see, because I am not an any way an advocate of static, "this character will die" moments. Rather, I imagine a total, the-s***-has-just-hit-the-fan moment, Shep is struggling to keep up with everything around him, trying to keep everyone organized, but eventually it all breaks apart and depending on what orders you had been giving, someone has to make some sarcifice to keep the mission going. But it wouldn't just be some character swap of a scene, but rather whoever it ended up being would go out doing what they do best. For example, the same mission might end with Jack forced to hold back an explosion, or Grunt charging headlong into a mass of husks, or Tali staying behind to ensure the bomb goes off. Or there's a way to rescue them all but fail the mission and you have to deal with those consequences. It's not so much about choosing how imperfect it is but where the imperfections lie. It comes back to what I was saying about powerlessness, if I'm choosing to have people killed it won't be as dramatic. I want to be along for the ride as much as anyone else. Also there's the issue of how a chosen death would be handled, because if it's purely a gameplay death, there's no way the story won't become segmented by it. The character wouldn't get the conclusion intended for them. That's what was so wrong about the SM, letting people die didn't befit the story, didn't advance the plot, didn't deepen any characters. It was letting arcs get cut short with no discernable (as of yet) change to the main story. Basically, there needs to be a reason for me to just let someone die if it's avoidable. What changes if a character is dead, if anything? And more importantly to me, how will everyone else respond to it? One of the biggest reasons that I'm against being able to prevent the deaths is because Bioware did it so poorly on the SM. I know that being the last in the trilogy is a different animal though, and that's about all there is preventing me from just dreading watching how it plays out.

So no, I don't think I'm being hypocritical, I think you just misinterpreted what I said. The importance of the imperfections for a playthrough are not in a "how much" but a "where are they" perspective.

[Han Shot First]

For perhaps the 100th time, so choose to allow those character's deaths.  No one makes you save everyone, and no one here that I've seen has advocated that.  You can have all the tragedy you want.  You just have to admit while you're playing that that's the story you want.  A human, fallable Shepard, who screws up sometimes.

Situations where people only die if Shepard makes tactical blunders (the ME2 Suicide Mission) simply don't work. It lacks the same emotional impact as Virmire because unlike Virmire those deaths are Shepard's fault. The story isn't quite as good if the protagonist seems like a  bumbling incompetant who is ill-suited for the task he's been given.

Also, that doesn't reflect the reality of combat. The reality is that it is often impossible for a combat leader to get everyone in his squad or platoon out alive. In fact, people sometimes die because a combat leader made the right tactical decisions.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:17 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Early November, 2010: My dopey fat dog, Jeb, is put to sleep due to a nasty connective tissue cancer that started in his hip.

Late November, 2010: One of my best friends, Ruth, dies suddenly from a heart attack due to diabetes complications. Despite the forty year age gap between us, she was my rock and counsel whenever times got bad.

May, 2011: Gene, a family friend, finally succumbs to lung cancer. Always over at our house for Thanksgiving and Christmas, she was like an aunt to me.

Sunday, June 26, 2011, 3:30 AM: My maternal grandmother, after a long struggle with Parkinson's and liver cancer, dies at home. I was there when she stopped breathing. I'm the one that unplugged her oxygen machine when she finally died.

Thursday, August 18, 2011, early morning: My paternal grandmother dies in the hospital.

Thursday, August 18, 2011, evening: My best friend, Karolyn, comes home to find her father dead on the front porch from a heart attack.

Currently, both my grandfathers have congestive heart failure and could pretty much drop any day now. Meanwhile, my mom's stuck with Parkinson's disease (just like her mother), which causes her great pain and is slowly robbing her of her mobility. It cannot be cured and will only get worse.

Death has already made me his b*tch. At this point, when something tragic happens (fictional or otherwise), I simply bend over and take it. Call me selfish, but I'd like the things I do for entertainment to cut me a break in this regard. I'm awfully attached to my squadmates, and it's therapeutic that I can save their lives while I'm powerless to stop the pain and suffering of my loved ones in real life.

I'm not looking for sympathy or anything here (since my problems, although full of suckage, aren't as bad as some people); I'm trying to point out that real life is a piece of sh*t. Many people engage in these elaborate fantasies (like Mass Effect) to escape it. It's nice to pretend to be some sort of invincible hero every once in a while when you spend the rest of your time confronting the tragedies that everyone has to deal with at some point or another. Also, keep in mind thay while movies like Gettysburg and Schindler's List are masterpieces, they're not something you can watch over and over. They're powerful, they're meaningful, but they aren't any fun, and depressing the hell out of your audience kind of castrates your replay value.

In the end, I agree that any character deaths in ME3 should be very emotional. After all, a large portion of the players are really attached to them, and the worst thing an audience can feel is nothing at all. However, I don't want these deaths to be forced or over-abundant. No auto-kills, and keep the Virmire scenarios to a minimum Because sometimes, some people deserve a happy ending, even if it's just a videogame.

[TheOptimist]

Han Shot First wrote...

For perhaps the 100th time, so choose to allow those character's deaths.  No one makes you save everyone, and no one here that I've seen has advocated that.  You can have all the tragedy you want.  You just have to admit while you're playing that that's the story you want.  A human, fallable Shepard, who screws up sometimes.

Situations where people only die if Shepard makes tactical blunders (the ME2 Suicide Mission) simply don't work. It lacks the same emotional impact as Virmire because unlike Virmire those deaths are Shepard's fault. The story isn't quite as good if the protagonist seems like a  bumbling incompetant who is ill-suited for the task he's been given.

Also, that doesn't reflect the reality of combat. The reality is that it is often impossible for a combat leader to get everyone in his squad or platoon out alive. In fact, people sometimes die because a combat leader made the right tactical decisions.

Sure it does.  How often have you heard that if a leader had been better, not made a mistake, that person could have lived? Well, Shepard can BE better, if you play it right, or not, if that's what you want to see.  And I don't object to making it harder to do so it's not quite so obvious what you should have done.  I rather liked Whatever666's idea of tying the possibility back to decisions you made a game or more ago.  So you don't have to be incompetent (though I will add that PLENTY of people lost a person or 2 on the SM without being incompetent at all) Shepard just made the wrong call 6 months or even 2 years ago.

And Mass Effect has never reflected realistic combat on the scale you're talking about.  Medigel and Unity anyone?  Never mind that you don't send a 3 man squad to assault dug in positions of platoon strength or more.

[TheZyzyva]

Posting this one last time for TheOptimist, since it is a fact he still seems to be failing to grasp.

Choosing to let someone die defeats the whole purpose the death is supposed to serve. Witnessing a death is supposed to invoke fear, anger, powerlessness, all of which are greatly diminished by the presence of choice. Diminish those emotions, and the story is diminished as well. And that's the exact reason we believe death befits the story. A death moves the story onward. An utter lack of it makes me wonder what the big deal is.

[TheOptimist]

Han Shot First wrote...

I used the movies as examples because there are all good movies in which the hero dies, not because they resemble Mass Effect. I'm not sure why some people are so opposed to squad mates or Shepard dying in Mass Effect 3. If it is done right and makes sense in the story, what is the problem? Would anyone seriously argue for example, that Gladiator would have been a better film if Maximus lived?

I'd certainly have watched it more than once if Maximus had lived. 'Fraid I can't say the same as things are.

Modifié par TheOptimist, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:37 .

[gosimmons]

Guess I'll join the minority, and say it'll feel cliched if we can make it through a war like this without any casualties.

[Kekkis]

TheOptimist wrote...

And Mass Effect has never reflected realistic combat on the scale you're talking about.  Medigel and Unity anyone?  Never mind that you don't send a 3 man squad to assault dug in positions of platoon strength or more.

Yep. We are going to look what has happened to everyone in this dead Reaper. Hmm, looks like Geth vessel has landed to there. Ok. You two are coming with me. Rest of you can go to Kasumi´s place and try to empty her minibar.

[Gorosaur]

gosimmons wrote...

Guess I'll join the minority, and say it'll feel cliched if we can make it through a war like this without any casualties.

I don't think you're the minority.

Most people want deaths that you can have an impact on that also create an emotional response with the player.

There are only a few that seem to want complete control over who lives and dies.

[TheZyzyva]

Ok, since "depressing" is the word getting thrown out a lot here, what exactly is so depressing about death? I think most of you guys are just looking at this in a negative light.
Yes, death is somber, death is sad, but it's not depressing unless you let it be. It's a conclusion, finality, the end of a journey. Don't sit there and mourn what has been lost, remind yourself of everything you've gained due to that person. There's nothing wrong with the end.

I know it's kinda silly to talk about video game characters in that light, but it's just as silly to sit there and say that their dying would actually depress you.

[TheOptimist]

TheZyzyva wrote...

Posting this one last time for TheOptimist, since it is a fact he still seems to be failing to grasp.

Choosing to let someone die defeats the whole purpose the death is supposed to serve. Witnessing a death is supposed to invoke fear, anger, powerlessness, all of which are greatly diminished by the presence of choice. Diminish those emotions, and the story is diminished as well. And that's the exact reason we believe death befits the story. A death moves the story onward. An utter lack of it makes me wonder what the big deal is.

I've responded to this point atleast twice, both times you've blown it off and disappeared.  The only thing choosing a death means is that you actually have to acknowledge Shepard failed.  It means there's no assurance from the writer that it's not your fault.  Can't blame life, the universe, or 'that's how war is' if, in the back of your mind, you know you have no one to blame but yourself.

I can't speak for you, but most of the time with the death of a main squadmate or main character all it evokes is 'aw, why'd they make that person die?'  Anger, perhaps, if it was a particularly idiotic death that was completely pointless for the character.  Occasionally, if someone dies doing something badass, I will salute them for atleast going out like a champ.  But powerlessness and fear?  Can't say I have.

[TheOptimist]

Gorosaur wrote...

gosimmons wrote...

Guess I'll join the minority, and say it'll feel cliched if we can make it through a war like this without any casualties.

I don't think you're the minority.

Most people want deaths that you can have an impact on that also create an emotional response with the player.

There are only a few that seem to want complete control over who lives and dies.

Better count again, I think Han was a lot closer when he called it a split.

[TheOptimist]

AwesomeName wrote...
*BANGS. HEAD. AGAINST. WALL.*

There, there, you'll get it eventually.

[Gorosaur]

TheOptimist wrote...

Gorosaur wrote...

gosimmons wrote...

Guess I'll join the minority, and say it'll feel cliched if we can make it through a war like this without any casualties.

I don't think you're the minority.

Most people want deaths that you can have an impact on that also create an emotional response with the player.

There are only a few that seem to want complete control over who lives and dies.

Better count again, I think Han was a lot closer when he called it a split.

I honestly think you and maybe one other person wants complete control over death. Most people are looking for a middle ground where the player has input but not complete control.

[Someone With Mass]

Gorosaur wrote...

gosimmons wrote...

Guess I'll join the minority, and say it'll feel cliched if we can make it through a war like this without any casualties.

I don't think you're the minority.

Most people want deaths that you can have an impact on that also create an emotional response with the player.

There are only a few that seem to want complete control over who lives and dies.

I just want to influence the outcome in some way, because it'd go against the illusion of choise BioWare is trying to give the player otherwise.

A little intervening is all I'm asking for.

[TheOptimist]

Gorosaur wrote...
I honestly think you and maybe one other person wants complete control over death. Most people are looking for a middle ground where the player has input but not complete control.

Complete control over...what?  I want to be able to save my Squad, not God-like power.  And if you think myself and SomeoneWithMass are the only people who've advocated that in this topic, I suggest you read the last 10 or so pages again, cause there's a heck of a lot more than 2.

[TheOptimist]

AwesomeName wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...
*BANGS. HEAD. AGAINST. WALL.*

There, there, you'll get it eventually.

Oh of course; WE'RE the ones who don't get it... Right...

If you want a serious conversation, act like it.  If you want to trade pithy phrases, I can handle that.

[Kekkis]

Gorosaur wrote...

gosimmons wrote...

Guess I'll join the minority, and say it'll feel cliched if we can make it through a war like this without any casualties.

I don't think you're the minority.

Most people want deaths that you can have an impact on that also create an emotional response with the player.

There are only a few that seem to want complete control over who lives and dies.

But people don´t wan´t totally random deaths either. Their LI dying in some random sidequest, just becouse someone might die in firefight would annoy majority.