896 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

Mike2640 wrote...

Capable leaders sometimes have soldiers die under their command. Capable leaders expect it. Because it's ****ing war. People die, even the ones we like.

That doesn't make the fact that Shepard is able to lead his squad out of there in one piece null and void because no-one died. That's just retarded.

[blacqout]

Alock1a wrote...

You could get away with hardly anybody dying in ME2, there should be deaths you can't stop in ME3.

EDIT: But like the OP said, please don't have Shepard just shrug it off like he has done so far. Have him show some damn emotion for the first time outside of a romance scene. 

Would anyone even object to Shepard crying in the event of an LI death? I don't see how that's not realistic. People say things like "Shepard is a hero, he doesn't cry!" but that is so ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous, and your eyes don't need to leak to show sadness.

At the end of On Her Majesties Secret Service, when Bond's wife dies, he doesn't cry but it's one of the best on-screen portrayals of loss and sorrow i've ever witnessed.

George Lazenby was actually instructed to not cry, and it lent the scene more power.

[MarauderESP]

Mike2640 wrote...
*snip*
Well no, I mean someone dies either way, it just means that depending on choices made in the past, either obvious ones or ones you wouldn't even think would matter, causes someone else to die instead. I should've explained better.

Okay take my Mordin scenario from before, but you didn't save the Genophage cure. Because you didn't the Krogan tribes collapse and Grunt goes to help Urdnot, but is killed.

See what I'm saying? You cant save everyone, but your actions can influence the likelihood of the survival of the others.

and i (think) understand what are u saying, i know its a war and someone is going to die, and im agree that ur actions have concequences so deal with it ... fine and the way ur saying its perfect valid and well implemented, but in the end u chose who dies.... i mean, hell mordin died  becouse i chose to keep the data on the gp, fine i want him alive i will have to go through ME2 againg to keep him alive.... then another one dies well (repeat) until some dies that u say hell this one die its a **** but i can live with it ....but i can still save him/her....and start again

this could meke the triology to be replayable to de end of times....

[Mike2640]

mopotter wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Actual response:"WTF is this sh-t? I spent 3 games getting to know this guy and they are just going to kill him? F--- that."

Yes, that's called chucking a hissy fit.

Someone With Mass wrote...

GodWood wrote...
You would develop a strong bond with the character, then they'd die.

That's how one achieves emotional impact.

It's not the only way to achieve an emotional impact.

In fact, killing characters makes their whole story completely pointless, because the main storyline must move on with or without them.

Because Saren died his entire story was pointless?

You better believe that I'd enjoy to see a character achieve something great instead of dying in my character's hands like a sappy drama flick.

And I'd rather experience actual mature drama instead of playing a children's fairytale.

See? I can do it too.

Have you actually read any real children's fairytales?  Not Disney, though Bambi is a bit tramatic watching his father get killed, but the real  stuff.  Hanzel and Gretel involved not a witch a devil and his wife, the kids slit the devil wife's throat after tricking her to get on the sawhorse.   The real Cinderella - her step-sisters cut part of their feet off in order to fit in the shoes and birds plucked their eyes out.  Sleeping Beauty - raped by the king, had twins and all while she was in a coma, one of the kids sucked the splinter out.  

But, I do want one ending where we have a Lord of the Rings, Lethal Weapon, Independence Day, Starwars VI- we destroyed the enemy, for now,  and we survived lets shoot off fireworks and celebrate, remember our loses and see different races celebrate in their own way.   

I don't mind losing people in some play throughs, but I want as much controle as possible over who and how many.  For me, a lot of it is a want to re-play this game for every one of my 11 Shepards and I don't want to have the same deaths each time I play. 

Boromir and Theoden died in Lord of the Rings. Randy Quaid and Mary McDonnell and Will Smith's friend died in Independance Day. I don't remember Lethal Weapon, but Vader died after saving Luke and being redeemed. All of those deaths were very emotional scenes that added weight to the conflict the characters were facing and ultimately made their triumph that much more satisfying.

[mopotter]

GodWood wrote...

Izhalezan wrote...
The problem with some characters dying no matter what is people will start to go "Why should I care about Character? it dies no matter what, shouldn't even bother upgrading em"

How is real life any different?

I don't play video games to get the sad and depressing real life emotion.  Parents - dead.  Grandparents - dead.  Friends some dead.  New born niece - dead.  I know what it feels like to have someone you care about die.  

 I play a video game for the same reason I read books.  :)The story, the romance, the action, for fun, to be a hero, to do things I'd never do in real life.  Shoot bad guys, date an alien.  Choices that I can controle - that's what I want in a video game because there is not a lot of controle in ones real life, especially where death is concerned.

[Ricardo HWO]

 Hell if the deaths in ME3 are anywhere near as emotional as John Marston's ( Red Dead Redemption), that would make one hell of a game. When John  died, I practically cried, I felt sad for the character and how far he had come only to die. I also felt compelled to take my revenge as Jack, john's son in the epilogue-esque post game.
If ME had emotional depth like this, I would love it.

[Mike2640]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Mike2640 wrote...

Capable leaders sometimes have soldiers die under their command. Capable leaders expect it. Because it's ****ing war. People die, even the ones we like.

That doesn't make the fact that Shepard is able to lead his squad out of there in one piece null and void because no-one died. That's just retarded.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I'm not saying having no one dying deminishes the victory, but in war it's to be expected, and that's against normal people. Against the Reapers people will die. It would be a certainty even if the devs hadn't already all but confirmed it. And having that touch of bittersweet can make the ultimate victory that much more satisfying, knowing you stopped them from hurting anyone else.

Ricardo HWO wrote...

 Hell if the deaths in ME3 are
anywhere near as emotional as John Marston's ( Red Dead Redemption),
that would make one hell of a game. When John  died, I practically
cried, I felt sad for the character and how far he had come only to die.
I also felt compelled to take my revenge as Jack, john's son in the
epilogue-esque post game.
If ME had emotional depth like this, I would love it.

A perfect example, and I completely agree. Red Dead Redemption deserved every award it got.

Modifié par Mike2640, 30 août 2011 - 11:48 .

[mopotter]

Hathur wrote...

 The deaths of the VS in ME1 affected me emotionally because it was a very dramatic moment that was built up to... when the bomb went off, I was wiping away tears and choking back sobs.

The deaths of any member in ME2 had very little impact on me at the time (except Garrus when / if he dies leading fire team 2... I adore Garrus and his last words right before death nearly get me bawling like an infant every time). The main reason being it happens so rapidly and there's only about 3-4 seconds of Shepard reacting to it before moving on... there's no time for it to emotionally hit me yet as the plot is almost instantly moving forward.

However, when the game is finished and we see the near-final scene with Shepard placing her hand on the casket of one of her dead squad members, that definitely gets me tearing up profusely... so the callous way their deaths were handled was in a way made up for with that final scene at the end.

The one death scene that gets me actually crying is Shepard's own on a complete fail run (yeesh it was harder to completely fail sufficiently to get Shepard dead than to just win the game). With Shepard's death scene we see the complete decimation of her whole squad... just her left at the end, making a hail-mary run for the Normandy... all alone... and to die at the end.... 

Hearing her pained voice as she clings on to the edge of the ship as she tells Joker to go with that slight tremble in her voice.... ugh... I'm trembling just thinking about it. I've seen the scene dozens of times and I can't help but get teary-eyed every time (first time I saw it I outright cried for several minutes). That was by far the most emotional death of the entire series for me by far.

If you feel like seeing it again (or for the first time): 

I've never done this, but I may have to play one game with this ending.  

[MarauderESP]

Mike2640 wrote...

mopotter wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Actual response:"WTF is this sh-t? I spent 3 games getting to know this guy and they are just going to kill him? F--- that."

Yes, that's called chucking a hissy fit.

Someone With Mass wrote...

GodWood wrote...
You would develop a strong bond with the character, then they'd die.

That's how one achieves emotional impact.

It's not the only way to achieve an emotional impact.

In fact, killing characters makes their whole story completely pointless, because the main storyline must move on with or without them.

Because Saren died his entire story was pointless?

You better believe that I'd enjoy to see a character achieve something great instead of dying in my character's hands like a sappy drama flick.

And I'd rather experience actual mature drama instead of playing a children's fairytale.

See? I can do it too.

Have you actually read any real children's fairytales?  Not Disney, though Bambi is a bit tramatic watching his father get killed, but the real  stuff.  Hanzel and Gretel involved not a witch a devil and his wife, the kids slit the devil wife's throat after tricking her to get on the sawhorse.   The real Cinderella - her step-sisters cut part of their feet off in order to fit in the shoes and birds plucked their eyes out.  Sleeping Beauty - raped by the king, had twins and all while she was in a coma, one of the kids sucked the splinter out.  

But, I do want one ending where we have a Lord of the Rings, Lethal Weapon, Independence Day, Starwars VI- we destroyed the enemy, for now,  and we survived lets shoot off fireworks and celebrate, remember our loses and see different races celebrate in their own way.   

I don't mind losing people in some play throughs, but I want as much controle as possible over who and how many.  For me, a lot of it is a want to re-play this game for every one of my 11 Shepards and I don't want to have the same deaths each time I play. 

Boromir and Theoden died in Lord of the Rings. Randy Quaid and Mary McDonnell and Will Smith's friend died in Independance Day. I don't remember Lethal Weapon, but Vader died after saving Luke and being redeemed. All of those deaths were very emotional scenes that added weight to the conflict the characters were facing and ultimately made their triumph that much more satisfying.

again u CAN´T interact with a BOOK or a MOVIE 

mopotter wrote...
I don't play video games to get the sad and depressing real life
emotion.  Parents - dead.  Grandparents - dead.  Friends some dead.  New
born niece - dead.  I know what it feels like to have someone you care
about die.  

 I play a video game for the same reason I read books.  The
story, the romance, the action, for fun, to be a hero, to do things I'd
never do in real life.  Shoot bad guys, date an alien.  Choices that I
can controle - that's what I want in a video game because there is not a
lot of controle in ones real life, especially where death is concerned.

agree 100%

[mopotter]

Mike2640 wrote...

mopotter wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Actual response:"WTF is this sh-t? I spent 3 games getting to know this guy and they are just going to kill him? F--- that."

Yes, that's called chucking a hissy fit.

Someone With Mass wrote...

GodWood wrote...
You would develop a strong bond with the character, then they'd die.

That's how one achieves emotional impact.

It's not the only way to achieve an emotional impact.

In fact, killing characters makes their whole story completely pointless, because the main storyline must move on with or without them.

Because Saren died his entire story was pointless?

You better believe that I'd enjoy to see a character achieve something great instead of dying in my character's hands like a sappy drama flick.

And I'd rather experience actual mature drama instead of playing a children's fairytale.

See? I can do it too.

Have you actually read any real children's fairytales?  Not Disney, though Bambi is a bit tramatic watching his father get killed, but the real  stuff.  Hanzel and Gretel involved not a witch a devil and his wife, the kids slit the devil wife's throat after tricking her to get on the sawhorse.   The real Cinderella - her step-sisters cut part of their feet off in order to fit in the shoes and birds plucked their eyes out.  Sleeping Beauty - raped by the king, had twins and all while she was in a coma, one of the kids sucked the splinter out.  

But, I do want one ending where we have a Lord of the Rings, Lethal Weapon, Independence Day, Starwars VI- we destroyed the enemy, for now,  and we survived lets shoot off fireworks and celebrate, remember our loses and see different races celebrate in their own way.   

I don't mind losing people in some play throughs, but I want as much controle as possible over who and how many.  For me, a lot of it is a want to re-play this game for every one of my 11 Shepards and I don't want to have the same deaths each time I play. 

Boromir and Theoden died in Lord of the Rings. Randy Quaid and Mary McDonnell and Will Smith's friend died in Independance Day. I don't remember Lethal Weapon, but Vader died after saving Luke and being redeemed. All of those deaths were very emotional scenes that added weight to the conflict the characters were facing and ultimately made their triumph that much more satisfying.

Yes, I'm not against some deaths, I just want some controle over them.  Plus - some happy ending stuff:  Will Smith/wife survied; Jeff Goldbloom and xwife/wife survied; Leia and Han; survived; Sam and Rosie back together; Aragorn and Arwen marry (book); Roger and his family ok; Martin and Lorna.   Happy.  

[mopotter]

Ricardo HWO wrote...

 Hell if the deaths in ME3 are anywhere near as emotional as John Marston's ( Red Dead Redemption), that would make one hell of a game. When John  died, I practically cried, I felt sad for the character and how far he had come only to die. I also felt compelled to take my revenge as Jack, john's son in the epilogue-esque post game.
If ME had emotional depth like this, I would love it.

didn't buy it, won't buy it and won't ever play it, unless I can get it for $10.  I won't pay out $70 for a game that's going to depress me at the end.    I'll stick with games like Elder Scrolls,  Fall Out NV; and Foll Out 3 (after broken steel) and so far, BioWare games.  

[Eckswhyzee]

Hmmm.....not really sure where I stand on this. The question is "Should it be possible for Shepard/the player to do everything they can possibly to do for the best of all possible outcomes, AND still have squadmates/other characters die?"

The best thing Bioware could do is make it so that there is no 'best ending' - someone you know will die, you just have greater control over who it is. If you want squadmates X, Y and Z alive you can, there just might be a tradeoff somewhere else.

As for Shepard's reaction to casualties, that's why there's a dialogue wheel. Most likely there'll be different things to say to the crew, and maybe some different lines for conversing in private with your LI or other squadmates.

[Mike2640]

Eckswhyzee wrote...

Hmmm.....not really sure where I stand on this. The question is "Should it be possible for Shepard/the player to do everything they can possibly to do for the best of all possible outcomes, AND still have squadmates/other characters die?"

The best thing Bioware could do is make it so that there is no 'best ending' - someone you know will die, you just have greater control over who it is. If you want squadmates X, Y and Z alive you can, there just might be a tradeoff somewhere else.

As for Shepard's reaction to casualties, that's why there's a dialogue wheel. Most likely there'll be different things to say to the crew, and maybe some different lines for conversing in private with your LI or other squadmates.

That's what i'm thinking. As much control as they can, while still acknowleging that Shepard is still only one man/woman and cannot do everything. Shep's still only human.

[souljahbill]

BW can't win in this situation. If they force it like Virmire, then people will complain that they couldn't save them (No, not Garrus! No, not Tali! No, not my LI!) and it wasn't fair. If it's like the Suicide Mission, people will complain that it's too easy to keep everyone alive.

[Mike2640]

I doubt it will trouble their sleep too much. I hear large piles of money are pretty comfy things to nap on when adjusted properly.

Modifié par Mike2640, 30 août 2011 - 12:26 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

Arppis wrote...

As long as there is "I should go" option.

This.  If the game kills off characters (scripted or random), the player needs to be given options for how Shepard reacts (if shown).  Fixed reactions are obnoxious.  *Points to LotSB where her stand-offish, resentful Shep suddenly became bffs with Liara.* 

Please don't assume all players and Shepards love a particular character and will have a horrified "NO!" moment when X dies, Bioware.  Make the character deaths emotional and fantastic if the story needs it, but leave the reactions to us. 

Modifié par LadyJaneGrey, 30 août 2011 - 12:36 .

[KotorEffect3]

If Liara, Garrus, Joker, or Anderson die I am blaming this thread.

[MarauderESP]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

If Liara, Garrus, Joker, or Anderson die I am blaming this thread.

ill add tali, chakwas, ash to that list

the rest can die at their free will....

ash: damn skipper, we have lost jacob back there....
shp: we lost who?
ash: jacob..... u know that cerberus pimp....
shp: jacob....jacob...jacob..... oh that jacob......

Modifié par MarauderESP, 30 août 2011 - 12:54 .

[Kyria Nyriese]

Like many others, I understand the need for some deaths, however, I also want a way to be able to avoid it if at all possible. I also don't want any deaths to be meaningless either. I can deal with character deaths after the shock wears off a bit. However, when there is no reason for it, and the way it is done is just stupid I can't stand it.

Perfect example to my mind was Vector Prime - RA Salvatore killed off Chewbacca by having a moon fall on his head for no reason what so ever, other than to kill off a major character and put the people in shock.  WTF? I had no issues with the death of Anakin Solo in Star by Star was done well and for a valid reason.

Now like others here, I also want to be able to not have someone die if at all possible, or if they do it's through decisions that I can make differently and change the outcome. This isn't a book with no way to change what happens, this is a game that I am interacting with and making the decisions, yes I understand they are along the lines of being written with certain outcomes being predetermined, however, I would like to have the illusion that my decision made some impact on it.

Modifié par Kyria Nyriese, 30 août 2011 - 12:54 .

[Hathur]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...


<snip>

Please don't assume all players and Shepards love a particular character and will have a horrified "NO!" moment when X dies, Bioware.  Make the character deaths emotional and fantastic if the story needs it, but leave the reactions to us. 

Would be easy for them to correct / solve this too by just making the reaction an interrupt instead (since waiting for a dialogue option to be selected could make the timing awkward and ruin the scene.. but an interrupt to determine how / if one reacts can maintain the integrity of the scene, one way or the other).

Modifié par Hathur, 30 août 2011 - 12:54 .

[nitefyre410]

well if your story has emotional weight with out death you not have to worry about "using Death" To create drama. Death should be the outcome of the characters story arc - not a tool create drama in the story. Secondly what is the death of "X" character going to do the rest of the cast - how will it motivate them, move them forward, etc,etc. The issue that Bioware is going to have the death of character X and gloss it over. Sirus and Dumbledore did not die so the reader could cry they died because those events where part of what pushed Harry the character forward.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Hathur wrote...

LadyJaneGrey wrote...


<snip>

Please don't assume all players and Shepards love a particular character and will have a horrified "NO!" moment when X dies, Bioware.  Make the character deaths emotional and fantastic if the story needs it, but leave the reactions to us. 

Would be easy for them to correct / solve this too by just making the reaction an interrupt instead (since waiting for a dialogue option to be selected could make the timing awkward and ruin the scene.. but an interrupt to determine how / if one reacts can maintain the integrity of the scene, one way or the other).

Great point!

Though I wonder what the renegade interrupt would be.  Maybe a blank face and moving on?  Or, if that's the neutral, no-clicky response, perhaps a quiet snicker for the Shepards who lack a sense of "NOT APPROPRIATE"?

Modifié par LadyJaneGrey, 30 août 2011 - 01:25 .

[SpiffySquee]

Personally, I think the fact that you had to move on and could not mourn made it even more triadic. I always believed that I was filling Shep's shoes. What I felt is what he felt (as much a video game would allow anyway) So If someone died and I really liked them, I felt horrible. I just assumed Shep felt the same way. The fact that he had to move on, to continue no matter what, made the feeling hit home even more. He just lost a friend or loved one, but cannot even take the time to think about it, because if he did, more would die. The team is already on the verge. If they see their leader falter, even for a second, what ever is left of their courage could fail. I'm not speaking poetically, but literally.

Every person on that team (well, maybe not Grunt) Had to be scared. They had to be thinking they were going to die there. When they look at Shepard, however, they see a rock. Pure confidence that this mission will succeed. If he showed, even for a second, the incredible grief he felt, the entire team might falter.

This crystallized the kind of person Shepard is to me. It shows how much he really cares for his team and for the people he is trying to protect. He will sacrifice everything, including his personal feeling for the sake of the galaxy. The SM showed that this is what Shepard has to be able to do for anyone to stand a chance. How much more emotional can a story get?

[Whatever42]

Normandy didn't feel empty post-Virmire. Only Kaidan died. I barely realized he was there when he was alive!

If there are character deaths, it will be tricky, though. The whole LI interest thing means you can't kill one without killing the others. If Liara died but not Ash/Kaidan then there would whining heard around the world.

You could just kill the LI but ME fans would riot. So LIs are off the table.

Any ME2 squadmates you kill might be pointless; they could be dead already. So some people would get the emotional impact but not others. The same for Wrex.

Random squad deaths would be stupid, people would just replay. Inevitable squad deaths (pick someone to die) would just mean we throw our least liked character into the maw of death so no real emotional impact.

That leaves non-squadmates, like Captain Anderson. I could see that happening, absolutely.

[Il Divo]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Random squad deaths would be stupid, people would just replay. Inevitable squad deaths (pick someone to die) would just mean we throw our least liked character into the maw of death so no real emotional impact.

Yeah, that was a huge problem with the Virmire Decision. It was meant to feel like a difficult struggle, but for any player who has a clear preference, the decision is pretty hollow.