896 réponses à ce sujet

[TheOptimist]

Mike2640 wrote...

mopotter wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Actual response:"WTF is this sh-t? I spent 3 games getting to know this guy and they are just going to kill him? F--- that."

Yes, that's called chucking a hissy fit.

Someone With Mass wrote...

GodWood wrote...
You would develop a strong bond with the character, then they'd die.

That's how one achieves emotional impact.

It's not the only way to achieve an emotional impact.

In fact, killing characters makes their whole story completely pointless, because the main storyline must move on with or without them.

Because Saren died his entire story was pointless?

You better believe that I'd enjoy to see a character achieve something great instead of dying in my character's hands like a sappy drama flick.

And I'd rather experience actual mature drama instead of playing a children's fairytale.

See? I can do it too.

Have you actually read any real children's fairytales?  Not Disney, though Bambi is a bit tramatic watching his father get killed, but the real  stuff.  Hanzel and Gretel involved not a witch a devil and his wife, the kids slit the devil wife's throat after tricking her to get on the sawhorse.   The real Cinderella - her step-sisters cut part of their feet off in order to fit in the shoes and birds plucked their eyes out.  Sleeping Beauty - raped by the king, had twins and all while she was in a coma, one of the kids sucked the splinter out.  

But, I do want one ending where we have a Lord of the Rings, Lethal Weapon, Independence Day, Starwars VI- we destroyed the enemy, for now,  and we survived lets shoot off fireworks and celebrate, remember our loses and see different races celebrate in their own way.   

I don't mind losing people in some play throughs, but I want as much controle as possible over who and how many.  For me, a lot of it is a want to re-play this game for every one of my 11 Shepards and I don't want to have the same deaths each time I play. 

Boromir and Theoden died in Lord of the Rings. Randy Quaid and Mary McDonnell and Will Smith's friend died in Independance Day. I don't remember Lethal Weapon, but Vader died after saving Luke and being redeemed. All of those deaths were very emotional scenes that added weight to the conflict the characters were facing and ultimately made their triumph that much more satisfying.

Each and every Shepard has lost, by my count, atleast 23 people under their command.  That seems like PLENTY for the 'we sacrificed for this victory' drama requirement, especially since Shepard has potentially lost far more than that. 

Modifié par TheOptimist, 30 août 2011 - 04:04 .

[Feanor_II]

As it is said in Spain, as long as they are not with a excess of "sugar"....... (I think cheesy is the word in english)

Buuuuuuuuuuut, I also think that not all the deads habe to be emotional and full of drama.....

As long as it's not done EXACTLY like Virmire, sure.

What I mean is, I think it would be really lame if we had the same kind of situation we had on Virmire, but with Tali and Garrus.

On the contrary, I think IT'S GREAT!

[Hathur]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Hathur wrote...

LadyJaneGrey wrote...


<snip>

Please don't assume all players and Shepards love a particular character and will have a horrified "NO!" moment when X dies, Bioware.  Make the character deaths emotional and fantastic if the story needs it, but leave the reactions to us. 

Would be easy for them to correct / solve this too by just making the reaction an interrupt instead (since waiting for a dialogue option to be selected could make the timing awkward and ruin the scene.. but an interrupt to determine how / if one reacts can maintain the integrity of the scene, one way or the other).

Great point!

Though I wonder what the renegade interrupt would be.  Maybe a blank face and moving on?  Or, if that's the neutral, no-clicky response, perhaps a quiet snicker for the Shepards who lack a sense of "NOT APPROPRIATE"?

I'm thinking more along the lines of Tali's loyalty mission.

When she starts crying over her father's death, there's an interrupt popup (paragon)... triggering it causes Shepard to tell her she'll be alright, then hugs her. Not triggering the interrupt causes Shepard to just quietly stand there and let Tali finish crying on her own - she then picks herself up and tells shep she's good and ready to move on (which is suitable for people who play their Shepard as stand-offish or even cold towards Tali).

In fact, Tali's loyalty mission is handled brilliantly in regards to how you can treat her. You can do and say things throughout the trial and aboard the geth infested ship that reinforce the two either as close, dear friends, lovers, neutral or even completely screw Tali over by being cold to her and ratting her father out, then not standing up for Tali and getting her to ultimately be banished.

It's quite impressive the range in which you can treat Tali... if you love her, you can treat her that way.. if you hate her, that's a perfectly viable function too (and she reacts very coldly .. almost hostile even.. back aboard the Normandy).

I guess since Liara was a DLC mission they only opted to make it possible to be friends / lovers with her and not neutral or cold to her.

Modifié par Hathur, 30 août 2011 - 04:18 .

[Undertone]

I think all of us want the characters deaths to be meaningful.

But there's nothing more annoying then "plot/fan-armor". The whole concept of LI's / best friends being able to die makes it all the more worth making it through.

If I know that my squad can walk with impunity then what was the emotional value of it all to begin with.

There has to be someone to die. Another SM would be cheap and yes I want all kinds of scenarios - a meat grinder, severe casulties, minimum casulties.

I want the ending that has minimum squad casualties however to be extremely hard to get - filled with both renegade and paragon decisions and impossible to achieve by purely paragon and purely renegade characters. But please not another SM where you can get out unscathed with absolute ease.

[Mike2640]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Normandy didn't feel empty post-Virmire. Only Kaidan died. I barely realized he was there when he was alive!

If there are character deaths, it will be tricky, though. The whole LI interest thing means you can't kill one without killing the others. If Liara died but not Ash/Kaidan then there would whining heard around the world.

You could just kill the LI but ME fans would riot. So LIs are off the table.

Any ME2 squadmates you kill might be pointless; they could be dead already. So some people would get the emotional impact but not others. The same for Wrex.

Random squad deaths would be stupid, people would just replay. Inevitable squad deaths (pick someone to die) would just mean we throw our least liked character into the maw of death so no real emotional impact.

That leaves non-squadmates, like Captain Anderson. I could see that happening, absolutely.

You're assuming if we have a choice it will be clear cut, like Virmire. I do not think it will be. As I said earlier, I believe that character deaths will be influenced by our previous actions, not simply a "Save Garrus <>Save Tali" situation.

TheOptimist wrote...

Each and every Shepard has lost, by
my count, atleast 23 people under their command.  That seems like PLENTY
for the 'we sacrificed for this victory' drama requirement,
especially since Shepard has potentially lost far more than that. 

You're refering to the Normandy SR1 crew, right? That doesn't really serve for the drama factor for the player because, aside from a few like Pressley, we didn't know any of the crew. They were faceless npcs to fill the ship. The player isn't attached to them and doesn't really care much when they die. The effort is pointless if the player themselves dont feel the weight of the sacrifice with Shepard.

Hathur wrote...

I'm thinking more along the lines of Tali's loyalty mission.

When
she starts crying over her father's death, there's an interrupt popup
(paragon)... triggering it causes Shepard to tell her she'll be alright,
then hugs her. Not triggering the interrupt causes Shepard to just
quietly stand there and let Tali finish crying on her own - she then
picks herself up and tells shep she's good and ready to move on (which
is suitable for people who play their Shepard as stand-offish or even
cold towards Tali).

In fact, Tali's loyalty mission is handled
brilliantly in regards to how you can treat her. You can do and say
things throughout the trial and aboard the geth infested ship that
reinforce the two either as close, dear friends, lovers, neutral or even
completely screw Tali over by being cold to her and ratting her father
out, then not standing up for Tali and getting her to ultimately be
banished.

It's quite impressive the range in which you can treat
Tali... if you love her, you can treat her that way.. if you hate her,
that's a perfectly viable function too (and she reacts very coldly ..
almost hostile even.. back aboard the Normandy).

I guess since
Liara was a DLC mission they only opted to make it possible to be
friends / lovers with her and not neutral or cold to her.

I totally agree. It was really weird for my scowly, red-eyed Shep to start getting all buddy cop with Liara.<_<

Modifié par Mike2640, 30 août 2011 - 06:53 .

[Clayless]

Virmire was dreadful. It doesn't make you emotionally invested, it's just a cheap and boring way to kill off a character without you being able to do anything about it.

[Destroy Raiden_]

If my LI has to die I don't want a Virmire where I need to pick to save ME LI or ME2 LI I would rather their deaths be out of sheps hands and beyond his control but if she was made powerful enough, fast enough, or is of a particular class then he can prevent LIs death if he is within range to do so.

For instance debris is falling and LI is under it a biotic class could slow it down or pull LI out all other classes watch LI die. Or LI is being held hostage tech shep hacks the turrets the bad guy has and one shoots him in the leg and LI can fight their way free of captor that sort of thing.

But if LI dies shep needs to respond either during the event or if it's like missile central and everyone is aiming for shep then at least have him breakdown after he makes it back to the ship and then a crew friend or kelly can try to comfort shep for his loss.

[ODST 3]

I didn't think most of the deaths were very emotional in Mass Effect 2 but in the first one, it was really sad having to leave Kaidan or Ashley to blow up.

I would of course prefer the ability to save everyone, just having that outcome be extremely difficult.

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Virmire was dreadful. It doesn't make you emotionally invested, it's just a cheap and boring way to kill off a character without you being able to do anything about it.

Speak for yourself, personally I thought Virmire was handled very well and the first time I played it I remember deliberating for about 10mins on who to save.

Also sometimes you can't do anything about a situation. I would think not being able to save someone and basically see them die in front of you, but out of your reach could be extremely emotional if done correctly.

[Jog0907]

One thing that has been said before but I think deserves to be said again is that videogames are not books or movies so any comparison in the validity of unavoidable deaths is not a valid point, you simply can't compare how that affects the story in each medium since they are different, especially since bioware uses the aspect of choice so much in their games.
Forcing deaths down a player throat regardless of ones action will feel wrong and done just in an attempt at emotional connection that disregards the element of choice present in the trilogy, it will feel as cheap as the everybody lives happily ever after trope regardless of choices.
Thankfully with what has been revealed so far it seems like bioware is tackling the permanence of squadmates in the game as a result of the players actions and choices, as it should be since it would be the most coherent in regards to the way bioware makes the games, visceral action and big moral choices.

[nelly21]

In a perfect world, I would want the deaths to based off gameplay, not player choice. For example, in ME 2, there is a formula to save your crew. Loyalty + Upgrade = Survival. It means that for any of Shep's crew to die, you pretty much have to want it to happen (at least after your first playthrough).

I would prefer the following: You send an unloyal crew member into the vents. They don't have complete faith in you so they freak out in the vents early and as a result, they die. The story then adjusts accordingly. That makes it more emotional. Not only does that system reward you for earning crew loyalty, but it makes the timed fight alongside the vent specialist much more nerve racking. If there's one thing I dislike about Mass Effect (and anyone that reads my posts knows ME is my all-time favorite franchise) it's that the consequences only come from static decisions. You pick Ashley-Kaiden dies. I prefer the fire fights to mean something. If I don't open the vents in time, don't give me a game over screen, have Tali die and make the advancement harder.

This is my opinion of course.

[Mike2640]

Jog0907 wrote...

One thing that has been said before but I think deserves to be said again is that videogames are not books or movies so any comparison in the validity of unavoidable deaths is not a valid point, you simply can't compare how that affects the story in each medium since they are different, especially since bioware uses the aspect of choice so much in their games.
Forcing deaths down a player throat regardless of ones action will feel wrong and done just in an attempt at emotional connection that disregards the element of choice present in the trilogy, it will feel as cheap as the everybody lives happily ever after trope regardless of choices.
Thankfully with what has been revealed so far it seems like bioware is tackling the permanence of squadmates in the game as a result of the players actions and choices, as it should be since it would be the most coherent in regards to the way bioware makes the games, visceral action and big moral choices.

Not necessarily. I've been saying this for a while now, but Shepard is still just human. He can't save everybody. If done poorly the deaths would seem bad and contrived.

I think it's important that it doesn't feel like a character dying is a player failure. During the suicide mission, if someone dies it's because the player screwed up or willingly chose not to do everything to get everyone out. If it's seen as a failure on the players side, of course they're going to reload and try again. But often times a Commanding Officer can do everything perfectly right, and still have soldiers die. It's tragic, but it's not the fault of the Officer. If it's not seen as the player "screwing up" then I think the character deaths will carry more weight, while at the same time be more likely to be accepted by the players themselves.

Modifié par Mike2640, 30 août 2011 - 07:56 .

[Karimloo]

His last words were:

"OOOHH AHHHH! I'M DEAD."

[Someone With Mass]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Virmire was dreadful. It doesn't make you emotionally invested, it's just a cheap and boring way to kill off a character without you being able to do anything about it.

I'd rather like it if it's handled like the suicide mission, where it's my own fault if someone dies. That way, all the morbid people that wants their, oh, so emotional deaths can ****** all day.

[Mike2640]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Virmire was dreadful. It doesn't make you emotionally invested, it's just a cheap and boring way to kill off a character without you being able to do anything about it.

I'd rather like it if it's handled like the suicide mission, where it's my own fault if someone dies. That way, all the morbid people that wants their, oh, so emotional deaths can ****** all day.

Well aren't you delightful. Glad we can keep things civil.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Too much talking.

"That f****** just made it personal."

(fight through a bunch of Cerberus lackeys and finally confront TIM)

TIM: Wait, She... (Ren: shoot him between the eyes & use Omniblade w/ chainsaw mod to sever his head).

Garrus: We took care of the Cerberus guards. How about The Illusive Man?
Shepard: I cut him off.

Go Arnie.

But then knowing TIM he has clones.

TheZyzyva wrote...

Imagine at one point you're storming TIMs base, and he's got your LI held somewhere, and you hear him give the kill order while you're watching on a monitor. Later you find the room and they've left the body. Shep kneels over it, maybe gently touches the face, then holds his own and stiffles a couple sobs. Squaddie 1 (Garrus of course) grabs Sheps shoulder, Shep looks at him and nods. He looks back at the body, wipes his eyes, and stands up. He walks through the next door, but stops his squad as they try to join him. "No. He just made this personal" and then the door closes.
Later you finaly get your hands on TIM, after besting whatever device he set up to stop you. "Wait," he says, "you know I'm the best chance humanity has. Think about what you're doing Sheppard!" To which Shep responds, "I know **** well what I'm doing. It's you who should have thought ahead." Fade to black, a gunshot going off at the dark screen. Fade back to the doors opening up, squaddies standing expectantly. "It's done. Now come on, we've got a galaxy to save." He stops to pick up the body, then another fade to black as they walk out of the station.

Ooh, I gave myself the chills.

[Undertone]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Virmire was dreadful. It doesn't make you emotionally invested, it's just a cheap and boring way to kill off a character without you being able to do anything about it.

I'd rather like it if it's handled like the suicide mission, where it's my own fault if someone dies. That way, all the morbid people that wants their, oh, so emotional deaths can ****** all day.

Why should I deliberately play like an idiot to lose someone? It doesn't create any emotional impact at all. It's me making the wrong decision knowing what the right decision is at the same time.

And seriously go play Sims or something. What are you doing playing a shooter in the first place?

Modifié par Undertone, 30 août 2011 - 08:17 .

[sorentoft]

It only works once in a series like this.

[nitefyre410]

The problem with emotional death scenes of the  Squadmates and LI's  is that Bioware is  eventual going to have to  take control  away from the player.   Take Virimire  -  itself was good idea but what most will do  is save the character they like the most.    Thus removing the impact of the death  of this character  from the story...  If the  Shepard had no choice or control(thus the player having no choice or control)   Then you started to get into the emotions that  death can cause -  Grief, anger, frustation,  etc, etc.    Unfortunately there is no real way the  Bioware can  do the emotional death of the      Squadmates and LI  because doing so would take control of the story out of the players hands and that goes against Bioware designed for the whole game.

[Medhia Nox]

@Undertone - actually, your SIMs die too - so it's not an accurate insult, but I get what you're saying.

Deaths can be done well - and made to be relevant, but they should be done like the Suicide Mission with the added aspect that even if you try really hard you could actually lose someone. ((as opposed to the suicide mission being very easy))

Otherwise - people cry that they don't have total control of the story (which is weird, because if I had total control over the story - it would have been about a Human/Batarian war - and not some silly space cuttlefish).

So - let them have "complete control" - but make the suicide mission genuinely perilous. This way - for those people who want to "play" the game - they can enjoy their successes and failures - and for those who want to be the conductor to the story, can read a strategy guide.

[The Interloper]

Concerning virmire, I want to say I'd like to see something like that, but it's avoidable. In ME3 there will hopefully be diverging quest lines towards the end, and maybe have the virmire thing on one and something else on another quest line.

Dramatic deaths? Yes please. Not Magnificent seven corny where they stagger around for thirty seconds clutching their chest before dying. But something emotional. Not a brush off like the suicide mission.

[Lucifer_Cheney]

I think deaths caused by poor (but unintentional) decision-making on the part of the player would create a more emotional and compelling gameplay experience.

Example: in DA 2 when Hawke is faced with a choice regarding his sister that may or may not prove to be fatal. Your decision has varying outcomes, which IMO makes you want to think before making the choice and makes the game more immersive.

[Mike2640]

nitefyre410 wrote...

The problem with emotional death scenes of the  Squadmates and LI's  is that Bioware is  eventual going to have to  take control  away from the player.   Take Virimire  -  itself was good idea but what most will do  is save the character they like the most.    Thus removing the impact of the death  of this character  from the story...  If the  Shepard had no choice or control(thus the player having no choice or control)   Then you started to get into the emotions that  death can cause -  Grief, anger, frustation,  etc, etc.    Unfortunately there is no real way the  Bioware can  do the emotional death of the      Squadmates and LI  because doing so would take control of the story out of the players hands and that goes against Bioware designed for the whole game.

Not really. I didn't have a choice when killing 300,000 baterians. That was a really crappy decision on their end, but it shows Bioware has no problem slapping away the player's hand if it might get in the way of the story they want to tell.

Lucifer_Cheney wrote...

I think deaths caused by poor (but
unintentional) decision-making on the part of the player would create a
more emotional and compelling gameplay experience.

Example: in
DA 2 when Hawke is faced with a choice regarding his sister that may or
may not prove to be fatal. Your decision has varying outcomes, which IMO
makes you want to think before making the choice and makes the game
more immersive.

That only works once though. As soon as the player realizes that they did something wrong, they simply reload. It needs to feel like an outcome of past decisions, without it feeling like the player failed in some way.

Modifié par Mike2640, 30 août 2011 - 09:35 .

[Someone With Mass]

Undertone wrote...

Why should I deliberately play like an idiot to lose someone? It doesn't create any emotional impact at all. It's me making the wrong decision knowing what the right decision is at the same time.

And seriously go play Sims or something. What are you doing playing a shooter in the first place?

Seriously. Stop being so cliche, tame and predictable.

Also, if you haven't played the game to the point where you know exactly everything about it, how do you know that certain decision won't be bad for a character?

Since ME3 will clearly have a lot of different outcomes.