76 réponses à ce sujet

[jsachun]

I just bought DA 2 on sale. And my first impression of the new combat system that has been highly boasted about feels somehow lacking in the overall need for pause, plan, position & execute. It feels more like a third person hack & slash game I use to play at high school with some special moves. Does it get any better at higher difficulty? I can't believe skillsets of classes were designed around realistic combat(i.e no dw warriors with longswords), yet it features a rogue that flys around like a fictional kungfu master in the Chinese Movies.

Modifié par jsachun, 30 août 2011 - 01:13 .

[Prince_12]

I liked it. Much faster and more fun. I tried to do a new playthrough in DA:O, but it's so slow compared to DA2. And in DA2, I actually feel like being a powerful mage.

[thendcomes]

jsachun wrote...
Does it get any better at higher difficulty?

Yes.

jsachun wrote...
 I can't believe skillsets of classes were designed around realistic combat(i.e no dw warriors with longswords), yet it features a rogue that flys around like a fictional kungfu master in the Chinese Movies. 

I don't get this complaint. It is realistic in a way that armor plated Warriors and spell-casting Mages battling dragons can be realistic lol. Rogues and Warriors lunging around is just to close the gap. Melee would be handicapped if it had to bumble around to each enemy.

Also, I've never seen any kungfu film with a guy that does anything like what the rogue does lol. 

The action is sped up so the pace can be frantic. If you just switched from DA:O, you'll be used to it in no time, and then DA:O will appear way too slow.

Modifié par thendcomes, 30 août 2011 - 02:46 .

[Fallstar]

I think the speed of combat feels good for a mage, and the rogue too - at the end of the day you are supposed to be playing a nimble, agile character.

But, I felt the speed of attacks as a 2h warrior was just plain ridiculous, almost like the sword had 0 inertia. I can appreciate a fantasy game is far from realistic, but watching a 2h warrior with the Primeval Lyrium Rune and Haste is absolutely bloody hilarious.

[TEWR]

The animations are great, and only the rogue needs to be reworked since the animations are very stiff and lifeless.

The sad thing is, the enemies don't use the same animations we use, so it creates an unfair advantage for us. Even worse is that they don't use some of the same skills.

Bioware needs to make the enemies use actual tactics and use cross class combos in the future.

[thendcomes]

DuskWarden wrote...
But, I felt the speed of attacks as a 2h warrior was just plain ridiculous, almost like the sword had 0 inertia. I can appreciate a fantasy game is far from realistic, but watching a 2h warrior with the Primeval Lyrium Rune and Haste is absolutely bloody hilarious.

True.  PLR, Fervor, Berserker, Haste x2.... It is like a hack and slash at that point.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The sad thing is, the enemies don't use the same animations we use, so it creates an unfair advantage for us. Even worse is that they don't use some of the same skills.

Rogues have stealth and backstab, but few other enemies have the same attacks. In Legacy this was improved somewhat, with Warriors using Mightly Blow and Archers using Hail of Arrows, etc.

Modifié par thendcomes, 30 août 2011 - 03:33 .

[TEWR]

thendcomes wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
But, I felt the speed of attacks as a 2h warrior was just plain ridiculous, almost like the sword had 0 inertia. I can appreciate a fantasy game is far from realistic, but watching a 2h warrior with the Primeval Lyrium Rune and Haste is absolutely bloody hilarious.

True.  PLR, Fervor, Berserker, Haste x2.... It is like a hack and slash at that point.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The sad thing is, the enemies don't use the same animations we use, so it creates an unfair advantage for us. Even worse is that they don't use some of the same skills.

Rogues have stealth and backstab, but few other enemies have the same attacks. In Legacy this was improved somewhat, with Warriors using Mightly Blow and Archers using Hail of Arrows, etc.

Yea IIRC, Malvernis and the Carta Dwarf leader used a few of the same attacks we use.

As for the Greatsword animations, they're realistic. What's not realistic is Carver saying "I'm.... getting tired" when his stamina is gone and his attack speed is the same. I proposed over on page 104 of the Constructive Criticism thread a solution to that issue.

Now, let me move to Greatsword animations. I think the animations should stay, but if you use up all of your stamina on abilities, then the animations slow down by 25%. So, you either continue striking at 75% of your normal attack speed until you build up some stamina again, or you drink a stamina draught. That's basically what those potions do. They give you more stamina. Not just stamina to use abilities, but in terms of not being exhausted.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Rogues are supposed to be agile and fast moving.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The animations are great, and only the rogue needs to be reworked since the animations are very stiff and lifeless.

The sad thing is, the enemies don't use the same animations we use, so it creates an unfair advantage for us. Even worse is that they don't use some of the same skills.

But there are way more of them than us.

[philippe willaume]

jsachun wrote...

I just bought DA 2 on sale. And my first impression of the new combat system that has been highly boasted about feels somehow lacking in the overall need for pause, plan, position & execute. It feels more like a third person hack & slash game I use to play at high school with some special moves. Does it get any better at higher difficulty? I can't believe skillsets of classes were designed around realistic combat(i.e no dw warriors with longswords), yet it features a rogue that flys around like a fictional kungfu master in the Chinese Movies.

No it is not getting better at high level, it just getting more tedious.
As far as the combat being realistic, no it ain't and no it is not designed to be.

If it was realistic well long sword in armour vs dual wielding and no armour= a dead rogue 99.9% of the time.
I have spared with few kali/escrima practitioners and it is very easy to deceive their single weapon paring either with a ending changing through or just cutting the hand.
The reach and thrust authority of a two handed sword is just to difficult to overcome, and the only effective attack against armour is a heavy thrust where there is no plate. (ie against the mail).
 
phil

[philippe willaume]

DuskWarden wrote...

I think the speed of combat feels good for a mage, and the rogue too - at the end of the day you are supposed to be playing a nimble, agile character.

But, I felt the speed of attacks as a 2h warrior was just plain ridiculous, almost like the sword had 0 inertia. I can appreciate a fantasy game is far from realistic, but watching a 2h warrior with the Primeval Lyrium Rune and Haste is absolutely bloody hilarious.

Yes you are right it is way to slow and the animation have nothing to do with a proper use of a two handed sword.
You know a two handed sword has a much better tip authority than any single handed weapon.
If you know how to strike you can deliver sting and quick strike.
If you can not stop or control your sword because of the inertia either it is a poorly made sword or you do not fence properly.

Modifié par philippe willaume, 30 août 2011 - 11:11 .

[frustratemyself]

jsachun wrote...

...it features a rogue that flys around like a fictional kungfu master in the Chinese Movies.

You preferred the slow motion shuffle from Origins?
 

[Jestina]

They went the anime route with combat, which makes it awful.

[Realmzmaster]

The animations in DA2 are more realistic and fun than the animations in Origins. Try retreating from a foe in Origins you cannot run at full speed. Your character does the combat shuffle. The mage animation is slow. The two handed animation is slow. If the two hander was actually as slow as the animation the Rogue would kill the two hander most of the time and that is not the case.

I find it interesting that gamers are asking for realistic combat in a game that has ice arrows/bolts and characters that can bellow out a war cry and flatten people.

Yes the Rogue is somewhat over the top, but a Rogue is suppose to be quick, agile and would try to use every part of the body to fight the foe.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The animations are great, and only the rogue needs to be reworked since the animations are very stiff and lifeless.

The sad thing is, the enemies don't use the same animations we use, so it creates an unfair advantage for us. Even worse is that they don't use some of the same skills.

But there are way more of them than us.

To be serious for a moment, the sheer number of enemies doesn't mean much. In Origins you could face dozens of enemies in just one area (Deep Roads comes to mind). At least in Origins, enemies used the same animations and some of the same attacks, though I would never call Origins combat tactical on any level of difficulty.

In DAII, the enemies use the Origins style of animations and our attacks almost always interrupt their attacks, so there is no real threat. Even on higher difficulties the combat is easy because of that fact.

If enemies used actual tactics (see my first quote in my first post on that page. Ignore the little origin story thingy) along with the same animations, attacks, cross-class combos, and even some attacks of their own; the series would be on its way to being tactical. Truly tactical.

Corypheus was the closest thing to a tactical battle I've seen in the series, though that doesn't mean much since there are ways the battle could've been improved to be really tactical.

[Gibb_Shepard]

They need to fix the animations, they make it seem more childish. Make the 2H sword look like it has some weight, get rid of the twirly mage staves and get the rogue to stop kicking highly fragile flasks.

[TEWR]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

They need to fix the animations, they make it seem more childish. Make the 2H sword look like it has some weight, get rid of the twirly mage staves and get the rogue to stop kicking highly fragile flasks.

I have no problem with the mage animations myself, but the abilities of each class (Miasmic Flask like you brought up) should be reworked to have a touch of realism at least if they don't have any already (some do). Though I enjoyed Varric's way of using Miasmic Flask by launching it from Bianca. That to me had seemed realistic enough.

Greatsword animations -- meaning the basic attacks -- however are another story:

Now, let me move to Greatsword animations. I think the animations should stay, but if you use up all of your stamina on abilities, then the animations slow down by 25%. So, you either continue striking at 75% of your normal attack speed until you build up some stamina again, or you drink a stamina draught. That's basically what those potions do. They give you more stamina. Not just stamina to use abilities, but in terms of not being exhausted.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 août 2011 - 06:44 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

They need to fix the animations, they make it seem more childish. Make the 2H sword look like it has some weight, get rid of the twirly mage staves and get the rogue to stop kicking highly fragile flasks.

I have no problem with the mage animations myself, but the abilities of each class (Miasmic Flask like you brought up) should be reworked to have a touch of realism at least if they don't have any already (some do). Though I enjoyed Varric's way of using Miasmic Flask by launching it from Bianca. That to me had seemed realistic enough.

Greatsword animations -- meaning the basic attacks -- however are another story:

Now, let me move to Greatsword animations. I think the animations should stay, but if you use up all of your stamina on abilities, then the animations slow down by 25%. So, you either continue striking at 75% of your normal attack speed until you build up some stamina again, or you drink a stamina draught. That's basically what those potions do. They give you more stamina. Not just stamina to use abilities, but in terms of not being exhausted.

Twirling that staff is unnecessarily inefficent. It can still look cool without turning your body 180 degrees to attack in the same direction, but from behind you, then twirling it a few times to slam it into the ground. 

And i honestly believe the 2H sword should be slowed down entirely. Give it more power, but slow it down a bit. Not to the snails pace of DAO, but it really is too fast in DA2 IMO.

[philippe willaume]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

They need to fix the animations, they make it seem more childish. Make the 2H sword look like it has some weight, get rid of the twirly mage staves and get the rogue to stop kicking highly fragile flasks.

I have no problem with the mage animations myself, but the abilities of each class (Miasmic Flask like you brought up) should be reworked to have a touch of realism at least if they don't have any already (some do). Though I enjoyed Varric's way of using Miasmic Flask by launching it from Bianca. That to me had seemed realistic enough.

Greatsword animations -- meaning the basic attacks -- however are another story:

Now, let me move to Greatsword animations. I think the animations should stay, but if you use up all of your stamina on abilities, then the animations slow down by 25%. So, you either continue striking at 75% of your normal attack speed until you build up some stamina again, or you drink a stamina draught. That's basically what those potions do. They give you more stamina. Not just stamina to use abilities, but in terms of not being exhausted.

Twirling that staff is unnecessarily inefficent. It can still look cool without turning your body 180 degrees to attack in the same direction, but from behind you, then twirling it a few times to slam it into the ground. 

And i honestly believe the 2H sword should be slowed down entirely. Give it more power, but slow it down a bit. Not to the snails pace of DAO, but it really is too fast in DA2 IMO.

hello
Why would we slow them down?
THS should be one of the fastest weapon, that is the benefits of having two hands one the weapon. a one handed sword is about 2-3 lbs and thwo handed weapons is about 3-4 lbs and a zwiehanded is about 4-6 lbs.
and in all cases they are well balanced making then very nimble and very quick and you are supose to use you body movement to control the weapon and add power to the strike.
I have spared gatka and kalli praticioner, you can almost always reposition you point before they can close in.
 
For animation well,
yes they could get slightly less over the top, but if it was too close to the reallity it would be borring. Most of the flash stuff that you see in demo, leave you open. so it is about  get him/her to over extend/attack from too far and cut the bit that sticks out the most or entrer ,closing the lines, and thust to the face or groin.


Globaly animation and the combat conceptually is better in DA2 but DA0 gave you more possible tactic to win a fight.
which made almost any built viable, So you did not have to stick to Vangaurd berseker/reaper mix to get by.

Phil

[Sabariel]

Liked the faster combat and the fact that you didn't have to do Anders' Spicy Shimmy just to get into position to attack nor did you have to run after a target before they finally stopped moving. Didn't like the rogue animations, the mob waves, the gimpy auto-attack, or the fact that the animations need to finish before you can move or use an ability. Oh, and having to be close enough to spit in your enemy's face just to use an ability stinks too...

Modifié par Sabariel, 31 août 2011 - 10:28 .

[alex90c]

Jestina wrote...

They went the anime route with combat, which makes it awful.

Can someone tell me how DA2's combat looks anime? I've played Final Fantasy, and tbh it looked 100x more believable than DA2s "lets swing a 6ft long sword with one hand" animations.

I'm cool with stylised combat (DS3 and Fable 3 do it too) but DA2 just ... did it wrong. The one thing big thing I have with stylisation is that even though IRL it would require some pretty superhuman reflexes, stamina and strength, most of the games I've played with it, it looks believable (take Fable 3's finishers, they're great). DA2 just took it to absurd levels with ... one-handed greatswords, S&S animations which if done IRL would probably wreck your wrist since they would keep glancing off of any decent armour, rogue animations which make zero sense and don't even make physical contact half the time, and the mind-bogglingly pointless staff twirling, which sure it beats the Origins boomstick but then I don't think either of them are good. I kinda think they should drop staffs and kinda make mages AOE characters with powerful, though slow normal attacks which can do hefty damage when they land, because I can't see a way to make staffs look cool without going over the top retarded.

[TEWR]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Twirling that staff is unnecessarily inefficent. It can still look cool without turning your body 180 degrees to attack in the same direction, but from behind you, then twirling it a few times to slam it into the ground. 

And i honestly believe the 2H sword should be slowed down entirely. Give it more power, but slow it down a bit. Not to the snails pace of DAO, but it really is too fast in DA2 IMO.

That's fair, but as I said before the speed of the basic animations prior to using up all of your stamina isn't really the problem (as far as I can tell). Greatswords weight at most 8 lbs., and it's basically like lifting weights. If you lift 40 lb. weights for a long period of time, eventually you can lift it easily and you'll increase the weight.

The same thing sort of applies here. Our companions who use greatswords have been using them their whole lives, so the weight is nothing to them.

I even posted some time ago that maybe as you level up and increase your strength by 5, your attack speed would increase by a little bit. That way, it would seem a bit better for people.

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...

Jestina wrote...

They went the anime route with combat, which makes it awful.

Can someone tell me how DA2's combat looks anime? I've played Final Fantasy, and tbh it looked 100x more believable than DA2s "lets swing a 6ft long sword with one hand" animations.

I'm cool with stylised combat (DS3 and Fable 3 do it too) but DA2 just ... did it wrong. The one thing big thing I have with stylisation is that even though IRL it would require some pretty superhuman reflexes, stamina and strength, most of the games I've played with it, it looks believable (take Fable 3's finishers, they're great). DA2 just took it to absurd levels with ... one-handed greatswords, S&S animations which if done IRL would probably wreck your wrist since they would keep glancing off of any decent armour, rogue animations which make zero sense and don't even make physical contact half the time, and the mind-bogglingly pointless staff twirling, which sure it beats the Origins boomstick but then I don't think either of them are good. I kinda think they should drop staffs and kinda make mages AOE characters with powerful, though slow normal attacks which can do hefty damage when they land, because I can't see a way to make staffs look cool without going over the top retarded.

I admit, the only thing I dislike about the basic greatsword animations is how they use one hand. Somehow, I highly doubt that a person could do that while maintaining their balance because of the sheer bulkiness of the weapon (note for the readers: bulkiness has nothing to do with weight in the way I'm using it).

While I like the staff animations, I can see how the twirling might be something people dislike. Maybe the mage should instead do a "You.... shall not... pass!" type of thing?



They could do the first four animations, and then raise the staff over their head and slam it to the ground sans the twirling.

Though.... what was wrong with S&S?

[Fallstar]

philippe willaume wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

I think the speed of combat feels good for a mage, and the rogue too - at the end of the day you are supposed to be playing a nimble, agile character.

But, I felt the speed of attacks as a 2h warrior was just plain ridiculous, almost like the sword had 0 inertia. I can appreciate a fantasy game is far from realistic, but watching a 2h warrior with the Primeval Lyrium Rune and Haste is absolutely bloody hilarious.

Yes you are right it is way to slow and the animation have nothing to do with a proper use of a two handed sword.
You know a two handed sword has a much better tip authority than any single handed weapon.
If you know how to strike you can deliver sting and quick strike.

A two handed sword has mass, therefore momentum. Therfore Hawke must exert a force to bring the sword to a halt, then change direction with it. This causes a period of retardation (you read right) followed by a period of acceleration. In Origins, you could see this happening. In DA:2, no. Hawke changes the direction of his greatsword nigh on instantaneously. I didn't mention that I wanted Hawke to be unable to "stop or control" his 2h weapon, merely that making the weapon look like it weighed more than a butter knife would be nice.

If you can not stop or control your sword because of the inertia either it is a poorly made sword or you do not fence properly.

Fencing with a two handed weapon. How's that going for ya then?:innocent:

Modifié par DuskWarden, 31 août 2011 - 11:34 .