76 réponses à ce sujet

[alex90c]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Jestina wrote...

They went the anime route with combat, which makes it awful.

Can someone tell me how DA2's combat looks anime? I've played Final Fantasy, and tbh it looked 100x more believable than DA2s "lets swing a 6ft long sword with one hand" animations.

I'm cool with stylised combat (DS3 and Fable 3 do it too) but DA2 just ... did it wrong. The one thing big thing I have with stylisation is that even though IRL it would require some pretty superhuman reflexes, stamina and strength, most of the games I've played with it, it looks believable (take Fable 3's finishers, they're great). DA2 just took it to absurd levels with ... one-handed greatswords, S&S animations which if done IRL would probably wreck your wrist since they would keep glancing off of any decent armour, rogue animations which make zero sense and don't even make physical contact half the time, and the mind-bogglingly pointless staff twirling, which sure it beats the Origins boomstick but then I don't think either of them are good. I kinda think they should drop staffs and kinda make mages AOE characters with powerful, though slow normal attacks which can do hefty damage when they land, because I can't see a way to make staffs look cool without going over the top retarded.

I admit, the only thing I dislike about the basic greatsword animations is how they use one hand. Somehow, I highly doubt that a person could do that while maintaining their balance because of the sheer bulkiness of the weapon (note for the readers: bulkiness has nothing to do with weight in the way I'm using it).

While I like the staff animations, I can see how the twirling might be something people dislike. Maybe the mage should instead do a "You.... shall not... pass!" type of thing?



They could do the first four animations, and then raise the staff over their head and slam it to the ground sans the twirling.

Though.... what was wrong with S&S?

The problem I had with S&S is that using a sword like that would be completely ineffective. Take the third and fourth animations as an example, they would either not even connect or it would just glance off armour. Then there's assault and scatter which just make zero sense at all, whereas in Origins the assault move looked pretty believable, rather than the slash-pointless shield bash-slash-glancing slash we got in DA2. I can't even describe what scatter is, I just ... don't know.

If they wanted to make stylised S&S moves they should have took a hint from their S&S deathblows from Origins and tried to duplicate that kind of badassery, like when you stuck a sword in a guy, then just bashed him with your shield, or another one where you kinda did two slashes then just shrugged the guy off with your shield. 

[Fallstar]

The dual wielding death animations were great too. The one where you stab them with your second weapon, then behead them, is far better than any fancy moves in DA:2.

[TEWR]

hmmm... I'll have to replay DAII sometime to check out the S&S properly. Though I approved of Shield Bash's new animation. It actually looks like something that would hurt rather than the lovetap to the gut it was in DAO.

I'd like to see class Specific Executions.

Rogue: Grabs the enemy and slits their throat
Archer: Fires an automatic critical hit at the eye of the enemy, which you can see protruding
S&S: Dismemberment of a limb or decapitation. Maybe another one where you slam the shield into their heads?
Mage: Dependant on the element of the staff: Immolation, Electrocution, Poison, Freezing, GoW3 Hades style soul steal (for spirit staves)
2H: Improve a few of the Origins animations. One that comes to mind is Sten's where he turns around and stabs the enemy through the stomach with Asala.

And more stuff like that.

[naledgeborn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The sad thing is, the enemies don't use the same animations we use, so it creates an unfair advantage for us. Even worse is that they don't use some of the same skills.

Bioware needs to make the enemies use actual tactics and use cross class combos in the future.

Yes. Part of the challenge of DA:O was that enemy combatants played by the same rules. How many times have I thought to myself "oh ****, here comes a fireball, or mass paralysis, or crushing prison, or curse of mortality, or mark of death, or a hex." The enemies playing by the same rules made you have to bring your A game. So when you've got mooks still stuck in DA:O and Hawke is flying around like a ninja it's kind of unfair. 

Side note: Cross class combos were good and all, but what in the void happened to SPELL COMBINATIONS? Where's Storm or the Century, Grease Fire, ADVANCED ANIMATION, Paralysis Explosion, Shatter, Improved Drain, Enthropic Death ect? Those were the real reason people wanted to play mage in DA:O.

Edit: I forgot to bring this up. As miserably short as it was the Anders' fight in Legacy was one of the best. I was like did this son of a **** just petrify me? Then he followed up with a crushing prison and I thoroughty enjoyed the challenge. That further convinced me that enemies should play by the same ruleset.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 31 août 2011 - 12:50 .

[alex90c]

I personally think if Bioware got enemies in DA2 to use the same skill and animation sets as the player they probably could have trimmed out 95% of the waves since the combat would have actually been challenging.

[philippe willaume]

DuskWarden wrote...

philippe willaume wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

I think the speed of combat feels good for a mage, and the rogue too - at the end of the day you are supposed to be playing a nimble, agile character.

But, I felt the speed of attacks as a 2h warrior was just plain ridiculous, almost like the sword had 0 inertia. I can appreciate a fantasy game is far from realistic, but watching a 2h warrior with the Primeval Lyrium Rune and Haste is absolutely bloody hilarious.

Yes you are right it is way to slow and the animation have nothing to do with a proper use of a two handed sword.
You know a two handed sword has a much better tip authority than any single handed weapon.
If you know how to strike you can deliver sting and quick strike.

A two handed sword has mass, therefore momentum. Therfore Hawke must exert a force to bring the sword to a halt, then change direction with it. This causes a period of retardation (you read right) followed by a period of acceleration. In Origins, you could see this happening. In DA:2, no. Hawke changes the direction of his greatsword nigh on instantaneously. I didn't mention that I wanted Hawke to be unable to "stop or control" his 2h weapon, merely that making the weapon look like it weighed more than a butter knife would be nice.

If you can not stop or control your sword because of the inertia either it is a poorly made sword or you do not fence properly.

Fencing with a two handed weapon. How's that going for ya then?:innocent:

Hello
I am afraid that you have been misinformed about long sword and two handed swords. It is easy to believe that they are heavy and clumsy thing.  I was the same before I started to practice.
The centre of gravity and the point of action of the forces are very close to the hilt, that is why you have a long handle and a pommel.
 
Medieval longsword, whatever the size, rely on tip velocity for a cut proper. (You do have slice draw or push cuts as well)
So big arms movement, not to mention that they are slow and sluggish and give a proper fencer the time to carve his phone number on your body by the time to recover, are in fact detrimental to imparting the tip with maximum possible velocity. You king of punch your hands forward and let the tip rotate.


Changing direction at the last minute is what fencing is all about.
 
I have a type XVIIIE that is about 5 lbs and it is literally as nimble as a small sword. I have handles original blade (i jousted with the curator of the Wallace collection) the one that marked me the most were a late rapiere/early small sword that was light years better than the best modern reproduction of that weapon and some zwei-hander that were a delight to handle, almost as if gravity stopped to exist.

As for how fencing with a two handed weapon goes, you need to ask my students, I have been teaching Fencing according to Ringeck manual from 1430 (well according to what i think he says) for about 10 years.
Here is a quick sample, to give you an idea

 
You did have heavier swords designed to fight again armoured opponents (panzerstecher) that works more like a staff. But really when you fence in armour, you do not strike it is useless against plate, the game plan is to position the point where there is no plate. Get the handle under the arm the quillons across the chest  being used pretty much like a lance rest, and step in to punch though the mail protection.
 
Ps the earliest fencing manuscript we know of is the I-33 (sword and buckler may be circa1340-50)
The first long sword manuscript is the so called dobringer 1389 (that data is because of the calendar in the book) this is from the lichtanauer fencing tradition. (About 10 fencing manual related to that tradition just in the 15th century, Ringeck being one manual of that tradition)
 
phil

[Reno_Tarshil]

Unrealistic Combat in a fantasy game.... OH NO End of the World incoming! Please just stop.

[philippe willaume]

Reno_Tarshil wrote...

Unrealistic Combat in a fantasy game.... OH NO End of the World incoming! Please just stop.

and even better, what you can actually do is even more "unrealistic" than what they come up in a fantasy game or in movies.

Real fencing is not really entertaining. so unless we are doing a fencing simulator .....
I think it is ok how it is.
as mentioned before the animation for THW  could be  more on the par with the rest of the weapons.

if i would change something it is the weapon damage system
 At the end of the day it does not really matter what hits you if it is in a vital area, but the smaller the weapon the more the placement is importent.
being hit by a poleaxe anywhere will spoil your day, a knife need to hit you in specific area to produce the same result.

phil

[jsachun]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The animations in DA2 are more realistic and fun than the animations in Origins. Try retreating from a foe in Origins you cannot run at full speed. Your character does the combat shuffle. The mage animation is slow. The two handed animation is slow. If the two hander was actually as slow as the animation the Rogue would kill the two hander most of the time and that is not the case.

I find it interesting that gamers are asking for realistic combat in a game that has ice arrows/bolts and characters that can bellow out a war cry and flatten people.

Yes the Rogue is somewhat over the top, but a Rogue is suppose to be quick, agile and would try to use every part of the body to fight the foe.

I'm not saying it's not fun. It is sensational-_-.  But I just feel that it lacks intellectual challenge or the need to engage your thought process in to the battle at hand. I've yet to come across the need to use the terrain and or environment to my advantage nor the need to use the health potion. And the only reason why I am swapping around companions is to avoid getting bad approval rating associated with quests and decisions.

Modifié par jsachun, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:08 .

[Reno_Tarshil]

All Im saying is when im on my rogue and combat switches on my brain switches off as I proceed to go on a killing spree to my heart's content. Mindless fun = The best, it's all I'm saying.

[Elhanan]

If childish = fun, then agreed.

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...

I personally think if Bioware got enemies in DA2 to use the same skill and animation sets as the player they probably could have trimmed out 95% of the waves since the combat would have actually been challenging.

I would've kept the waves for most of the game, but implemented them much better than DAII did. It would've made the game really tactical if you have to be on edge for these battles (because it would be really easy to defeat just one group of enemies).

Though I would only use them in instances where it made sense. Like all 3 gangs in Act 1 would have waves, but Act 2 would see a drop in crime so barely any waves if any. Act 3 would have the Followers of She and IIRC the Bloodragers in waves, since both groups are being controlled by certain people.

And the Mages, Templars, and Qunari would call for waves because of how many are there.

Of course, that's just me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 septembre 2011 - 08:40 .

[Tirfan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

alex90c wrote...

I personally think if Bioware got enemies in DA2 to use the same skill and animation sets as the player they probably could have trimmed out 95% of the waves since the combat would have actually been challenging.

I would've kept the waves for most of the game, but implemented them much better than DAII did. It would've made the game really tactical if you have to be on edge for these battles (because it would be really easy to defeat just one group of enemies).

Though I would only use them in instances where it made sense. Like all 3 gangs in Act 1 would have waves, but Act 2 would see a drop in crime so barely any waves if any. Act 3 would have the Followers of She and IIRC the Bloodragers in waves, since both groups are being controlled by certain people.

And the Mages, Templars, and Qunari would call for waves because of how many are there.

Of course, that's just me.

The waves are a tricky thing - they are not inherently bad design, its just where and when they are used, if they are overused, whatever difference in adapting to the situation becomes a chore, as in DA2, as you knew there was always a new wave coming. But the bigger problem, and this showed in DA2-combat in general is that they may not fit the encounter and/or they may make the encounter feel like 3-5 small encounters strung together instead of one big one aand they make the fights last longer.

The last point is not a problem if the combat is actually fun and not boring. In case of DA2, it wasn't either of those so, it annoyed me to no end that the combat didn't have the decency to even be over quickly. Bleaarggh, on so many occasions I thought about using /killallhostiles to just get it over with.

[alex90c]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

alex90c wrote...

I personally think if Bioware got enemies in DA2 to use the same skill and animation sets as the player they probably could have trimmed out 95% of the waves since the combat would have actually been challenging.

I would've kept the waves for most of the game, but implemented them much better than DAII did. It would've made the game really tactical if you have to be on edge for these battles (because it would be really easy to defeat just one group of enemies).

Though I would only use them in instances where it made sense. Like all 3 gangs in Act 1 would have waves, but Act 2 would see a drop in crime so barely any waves if any. Act 3 would have the Followers of She and IIRC the Bloodragers in waves, since both groups are being controlled by certain people.

And the Mages, Templars, and Qunari would call for waves because of how many are there.

Of course, that's just me.

I would've dropped nearly all of the waves. Or if they stayed, then Hawke should seriously be allowed to hire some extra bodyguards (...or maybe the City Guard should be doing its job so perhaps by the second wave a bunch of guards join in the fray to assist you).

[Reno_Tarshil]

alex90c wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

alex90c wrote...

I personally think if Bioware got enemies in DA2 to use the same skill and animation sets as the player they probably could have trimmed out 95% of the waves since the combat would have actually been challenging.

I would've kept the waves for most of the game, but implemented them much better than DAII did. It would've made the game really tactical if you have to be on edge for these battles (because it would be really easy to defeat just one group of enemies).

Though I would only use them in instances where it made sense. Like all 3 gangs in Act 1 would have waves, but Act 2 would see a drop in crime so barely any waves if any. Act 3 would have the Followers of She and IIRC the Bloodragers in waves, since both groups are being controlled by certain people.

And the Mages, Templars, and Qunari would call for waves because of how many are there.

Of course, that's just me.

I would've dropped nearly all of the waves. Or if they stayed, then Hawke should seriously be allowed to hire some extra bodyguards (...or maybe the City Guard should be doing its job so perhaps by the second wave a bunch of guards join in the fray to assist you).

But if they join in, I wont be able to get up to rampage, i'll be stuck at killing spree...

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

alex90c wrote...

I personally think if Bioware got enemies in DA2 to use the same skill and animation sets as the player they probably could have trimmed out 95% of the waves since the combat would have actually been challenging.

I would've kept the waves for most of the game, but implemented them much better than DAII did. It would've made the game really tactical if you have to be on edge for these battles (because it would be really easy to defeat just one group of enemies).

Though I would only use them in instances where it made sense. Like all 3 gangs in Act 1 would have waves, but Act 2 would see a drop in crime so barely any waves if any. Act 3 would have the Followers of She and IIRC the Bloodragers in waves, since both groups are being controlled by certain people.

And the Mages, Templars, and Qunari would call for waves because of how many are there.

Of course, that's just me.

I would've dropped nearly all of the waves. Or if they stayed, then Hawke should seriously be allowed to hire some extra bodyguards (...or maybe the City Guard should be doing its job so perhaps by the second wave a bunch of guards join in the fray to assist you).

Oh definitely, the City guard should've definitely helped. At least in Origins if you got in a fight on the Calenhad Docks the Epic Templar Guy of Ferelden's Circle joined in.

And he fought with his fists.

....so can that guy be a companion in DA3 Bioware?

Tirfan wrote...

The waves are a tricky thing - they are not inherently bad design, its just where and when they are used, if they are overused, whatever difference in adapting to the situation becomes a chore, as in DA2, as you knew there was always a new wave coming. But the bigger problem, and this showed in DA2-combat in general is that they may not fit the encounter and/or they may make the encounter feel like 3-5 small encounters strung together instead of one big one aand they make the fights last longer.

The last point is not a problem if the combat is actually fun and not boring. In case of DA2, it wasn't either of those so, it annoyed me to no end that the combat didn't have the decency to even be over quickly. Bleaarggh, on so many occasions I thought about using /killallhostiles to just get it over with

Indeed. If the combat is fun and tactical, then things are great. I'd even keep the fact that enemies have more health (though not to the obscene levels of Arishok and High Dragon health unless I found a way to make those battles tactical and not just tedious) since in Origins it took like 5 hits to take down an enemy.

I'd definitely use demons in waves, but I'd give them an entirely new attack set. Abominations would also get a new attack set (and very rarely be used as waves). Demons and Abominations are supposed to be a threat, yet they aren't one in the games. The gameplay should reflect the lore, not contradict it.

And of course, no summoning abominations. That was a huge  moment for me.

But I'd also need to know how to actually implement my ideas.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 septembre 2011 - 03:31 .

[philippe willaume]

For me a sign of a good combat system is that you do not need “optimum build”

DA:0 did that very well, mainly due to the possibility to spend talent in two weapons that gave a much wider range of tactical option

I think that all classes should have DSP, CC, BUF/debuff
What maters is the ability to use them as hoc. It is not so much a matter of all the classes being the same, but more a matter of all the classes having the same possibilities by different means.
So it is more about using the same method (ie game mechanism) than it is using the same effects for all.

I have created a table top RPG (high tech fantasy) where you can play anything from a Dwarf to 8foot minotaur or lion-type Man (like the Kurri in GOR). If you link damage to physical strength clearly warriors will always be Minotaur or lion man.
So to avoid that, you need to link the ability to take damage top the physique, have zone more vulnerable than other then you can link damage to how skilled you are.
(i.e. how much you are successful on you dices directly translate to how much damage you are doing, according to the weapon)

Any one mage-warriors-rogue can take the same type of action in combat.
Shooting a gun in SA, a crossbow or a magic missile of some description uses the same method.

You can aim, you can have scope, computer assisted gyroscopic scope or spell to the same effect.
The point is that you can be playing a 20th century sniper, a mage, a rogue with a crossbow. You feel the same awesomeness, when you take out the guard at the top of the tower.
In one case you need a scope a high power riffle and a silencer
In the other, you need 3 spells
And in the last, either a crossbow and a spell or a sneak roll to get close.

But it is the same method for all, reduce the range to counter aiming difficulty, suppress the sound for discretion.

For the wawes, I think each encounter could be associated with a likely hood of re-enforcement for a given encounter.
The net result needs to be a you have some with waves and some without.
But the waves need to comes from a map edges, or unexplored locations by default.
Parratropers ninja are good but at small doses.

phil

[Tirfan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Indeed. If the combat is fun and tactical, then things are great. I'd even keep the fact that enemies have more health (though not to the obscene levels of Arishok and High Dragon health unless I found a way to make those battles tactical and not just tedious) since in Origins it took like 5 hits to take down an enemy.

I'd definitely use demons in waves, but I'd give them an entirely new attack set. Abominations would also get a new attack set (and very rarely be used as waves). Demons and Abominations are supposed to be a threat, yet they aren't one in the games. The gameplay should reflect the lore, not contradict it.

And of course, no summoning abominations. That was a huge  moment for me.

But I'd also need to know how to actually implement my ideas.

Yeah, I'm kind of in the different place regarding this, I have no problems with mobs having low-health in general, given that also my characters have low health and the mobs do high% damage, it's a balance thing really, having this right balance on how long encounters take to beat, if the encounters are actually hard and take a long time, the frustration when you fail near the very end of a n-minute fight is rather much greater than when you fail at a shorter fight.

The optimal length for encounters is of course the magical "not frustrating enough for you to turn off your computer, but to start grinding at it for as long as it takes to perfect the strategy, because every try in itself doesn't take a huge chunk of time, and not so short that they feel like a breeze when you finally get it right."

And this probably varies from person to person so, good luck with that.

[Arthur Cousland]

In regards to mob health, I'd just like to go all-out with a dual wield rogue or similarly powerful character and not be one-shotting everything, including bosses. I prefer making swiss cheese out of my enemies for a bit before I behead them, and I've always been fond of the longer, epic boss fights.

Especially, how some battles in DA2 don't give you time to loot enemy corpses at the end of the battle, I don't want a boss to go from full health to dead before I can loot everything. That happened to me a couple of times during the Arishok fight. Eventually I stopped reloading and just made sure to kill everything, and if I looted it all, then even better.

[Lord_Raden07]

I get what yall are saying about realism, but when the warrior's basic attacks hit like a girl, the speed is needed to make up the difference. Especially with the new patch.

[nicethugbert]

Um, when people fight for their lives, or when they're really pissed while fighting, they tend to move really fast, not slow like in DAO, unless there is something wrong with them.

[philippe willaume]

Lord_Raden07 wrote...

I get what yall are saying about realism, but when the warrior's basic attacks hit like a girl, the speed is needed to make up the difference. Especially with the new patch.

There is truth in that .....
As well for some class it is an underhanded way to pace up powerful attacks...

It is not a fencing simulator, it is a fantasy game.
Using two weapons and no armour against a fully armoured dude or dudesse with a two handed weapon only works in movies and games.

That being said It think the "realism" aspect of the criticism is based on the suspension of disbelieve. the moves are so over the top that it becomes silly.

Phil

[Tainan7509]

The only thing that i have trouble with is the enemy death animation. Using dagger to stab someone that doesn't make the enemy's body to explode.

Modifié par Tainan7509, 11 septembre 2011 - 11:57 .

[alex90c]

nicethugbert wrote...

Um, when people fight for their lives, or when they're really pissed while fighting, they tend to move really fast, not slow like in DAO, unless there is something wrong with them.

There's a fine enormous line between fighting faster and just fighting like a retard.

DA:O combat made it seem like every blow had force behind them and the 2H moves seemed to hit like a train. In DA2, look carefully and you'll see that practically none of the moves even hit enemies (DA2 rogue gets their daggers out and simply places it in front of themselves, cue EXPLODING ENEMY).

Besides, watch any

any
any
any
ANY

kind of historical footage/movie/reenactment and whenever there's a battle (whether they're melee or at range) nobody goes in to some crazy hyperactive state like Hawke & Co. do in DA2. Hell, I found goddamn 300 more realistic than DA2 the combat was that bad.