76 réponses à ce sujet

[ConvictedFish]

The realism this is what gets me about this thread, and the childish thing? I mean COME on... most of the stick's I have in my yard, whether I twirl them or slam them on the ground, don't SHOOT fire, or turn people into ice... I can yell Lightning bolt a hundred times, and my tree branch won't do it... I got an idea, I want this to be so realistic.. I want Hawke to carry a stick, and when he twirls it... nothing happens, so he has to go into Melee, and when he hits the mob, the stick breaks, and I get killed by a sword, cause in real life, whether Im holding my dagger, or Giant sword, (wait.. I don't own any giant swords with Gems and tassles on it) I would die.. no matter what I was wearing. Its a fantasy game, I want my fantasy toons to be able to carry a sword thats bigger than they are....because I cant do that, I want my toons to have a stick that can shoot flames, because I CANT do that... make it even more wild, and childish, I want moves so crazy, that even hawke or my companions say... "holy sh*t hawke, where'd you learn that"

[jsachun]

Dunstan wrote...

These are my gripes with PC combat in DA2:

1. My DW rogue seems to hop around the battle field like a frog on steroids, I'd like combat with more realistic gravity levels and physics that make sense.

2. 2H warriors have gone Japanese anime style in the way that they can swing a heavy blade around as if it were a long stick, with no sign of effort or power in the attacks. And now they can also Ice skate without... Ice skates, that was also a remarkably silly attack. I know what it's there for, but why couldn't it have just been a run-up lunge instead?

3. Archer and Mage animations for basic attacks are quite cringe worthy, because of the overall pointless twirls and ridiculous stances they take. I mean why bother with all that flashy movement when it would be easier to just kill things? (It actually contributed to me being put off using an Archer or Mage in DA2)

I agree with you completely. Animation for the 2h warriors in DA2 could have been better served with a weapon like the 2H katana. Shorter and thinner balde with long handles/grip. Mage animation looks more like character swinging around a pole weapon rather than a mage casting spells. Seriously I can't believe they reduced Anders to an animation of a warrior (perhaps it's Justice's influence within Anders). Why they didn't just introduce another set of combat skills to allow classes to take this path I don't know? 

Modifié par jsachun, 12 septembre 2011 - 10:44 .

[nicethugbert]

Dunstan wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Um, when people fight for their lives, or when they're really pissed while fighting, they tend to move really fast, not slow like in DAO, unless there is something wrong with them.

"I do hope that Bioware find common ground between DA:O and DA2 in terms of combat speed.
In DA:O I could issue out commands to all 4 companions without ever pausing time - too slow.
In DA2 I could bearly keep up with controlling 2 characters in real time - too fast."

When I said that I wasn't talking about the realism of the speed, just the gameplay perspective.

I don't mind using the pause button.  I use it in DAO, ME1, ME2, NWN, NWN2, in every game I play that has a pause.  So, I want the animation and movement speed to be even faster.

And, what is the sense of some supposed compromise when everybody has their own preferences.  No matter the compromise people will be unhappy about it.  The only way to resolve the issue is with a speed slider, not compromise.  Compromise means that no one is trully happy and that is not good for something people can just walk away from and keep their money.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 12 septembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[nicethugbert]

alex90c wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Um, when people fight for their lives, or when they're really pissed while fighting, they tend to move really fast, not slow like in DAO, unless there is something wrong with them.

There's a fine enormous line between fighting faster and just fighting like a retard.

DA:O combat made it seem like every blow had force behind them and the 2H moves seemed to hit like a train. In DA2, look carefully and you'll see that practically none of the moves even hit enemies (DA2 rogue gets their daggers out and simply places it in front of themselves, cue EXPLODING ENEMY).

Besides, watch any

any
any
any
ANY

kind of historical footage/movie/reenactment and whenever there's a battle (whether they're melee or at range) nobody goes in to some crazy hyperactive state like Hawke & Co. do in DA2. Hell, I found goddamn 300 more realistic than DA2 the combat was that bad.

OP focuses on the speed of movement and only hints at the actual animations in his last sentence.  The two are separate issues.  Lots of games have crap animations at speeds slower than that of DA2.

Watch any any .... ANY kind of historical footage/movie/reenactment and whenever there's a battle (whether they're melee or at range) nobody swings a two-handed weapon as slowly as a turtle walks.  The animations in DAO, or any game, are far from realistic.  Unrealistic animations are far from being a DA2 exclusive.

[alex90c]

nicethugbert wrote...

alex90c wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Um, when people fight for their lives, or when they're really pissed while fighting, they tend to move really fast, not slow like in DAO, unless there is something wrong with them.

There's a fine enormous line between fighting faster and just fighting like a retard.

DA:O combat made it seem like every blow had force behind them and the 2H moves seemed to hit like a train. In DA2, look carefully and you'll see that practically none of the moves even hit enemies (DA2 rogue gets their daggers out and simply places it in front of themselves, cue EXPLODING ENEMY).

Besides, watch any

any
any
any
ANY

kind of historical footage/movie/reenactment and whenever there's a battle (whether they're melee or at range) nobody goes in to some crazy hyperactive state like Hawke & Co. do in DA2. Hell, I found goddamn 300 more realistic than DA2 the combat was that bad.

OP focuses on the speed of movement and only hints at the actual animations in his last sentence.  The two are separate issues.  Lots of games have crap animations at speeds slower than that of DA2.

Watch any any .... ANY kind of historical footage/movie/reenactment and whenever there's a battle (whether they're melee or at range) nobody swings a two-handed weapon as slowly as a turtle walks.  The animations in DAO, or any game, are far from realistic.  Unrealistic animations are far from being a DA2 exclusive.

I'm not saying the DA:O combat was realistic, I'm saying it was far more convincing than the button bashing wankfest that DA2 was.

[nicethugbert]

alex90c wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

alex90c wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Um, when people fight for their lives, or when they're really pissed while fighting, they tend to move really fast, not slow like in DAO, unless there is something wrong with them.

There's a fine enormous line between fighting faster and just fighting like a retard.

DA:O combat made it seem like every blow had force behind them and the 2H moves seemed to hit like a train. In DA2, look carefully and you'll see that practically none of the moves even hit enemies (DA2 rogue gets their daggers out and simply places it in front of themselves, cue EXPLODING ENEMY).

Besides, watch any

any
any
any
ANY

kind of historical footage/movie/reenactment and whenever there's a battle (whether they're melee or at range) nobody goes in to some crazy hyperactive state like Hawke & Co. do in DA2. Hell, I found goddamn 300 more realistic than DA2 the combat was that bad.

OP focuses on the speed of movement and only hints at the actual animations in his last sentence.  The two are separate issues.  Lots of games have crap animations at speeds slower than that of DA2.

Watch any any .... ANY kind of historical footage/movie/reenactment and whenever there's a battle (whether they're melee or at range) nobody swings a two-handed weapon as slowly as a turtle walks.  The animations in DAO, or any game, are far from realistic.  Unrealistic animations are far from being a DA2 exclusive.

I'm not saying the DA:O combat was realistic, I'm saying it was far more convincing than the button bashing wankfest that DA2 was.

That is your opinion, not mine.  It's all incredibly fantastic to me.  There is nothing convincing to me about combat in games because it's all entirely unrealistic.

Every creature fights with complete determination like they're pumped full of meth and pain killers.  Nothing deters anybody.  Five ogres could punch someone at the same time and the target just powers through it all to land a devastating attack, time after time until someone runs out of hit points first.  It's complete utter bull**** and you find it in DAO, NWN, NWN2, etc.

The animations merely reflect the underlying combat system, and it happens in all games.  But, The Grand Council of Nerd Rage has signled out DA2 so it must pay the price of imperfection while other games get The Grand Pass because they have The Prettier Pantaloons Or Some Such Nonsense.

[philippe willaume]

Nope combat is not realistic and we kind of all agree that it is good thing but this is not really the underlying peeve.

It is more about a tactically oriented fight or and action/arcade oriented fight.
basically fight in DA:2 are even less tactical than ME:2 when compared to DA:0.
So if you prefer DA:0 DA:2 looks like a mind numbing slugfest.

Now if you like a faster paced, character centred mortal kombat-ish RPG you will find DA:O slow boring and kind of deflating for the hero-character.

[TEWR]

philippe willaume wrote...

Nope combat is not realistic and we kind of all agree that it is good thing but this is not really the underlying peeve.

It is more about a tactically oriented fight or and action/arcade oriented fight.
basically fight in DA:2 are even less tactical than ME:2 when compared to DA:0.
So if you prefer DA:0 DA:2 looks like a mind numbing slugfest.

Now if you like a faster paced, character centred mortal kombat-ish RPG you will find DA:O slow boring and kind of deflating for the hero-character.

Ehh, that seems like you're calling the entirety of DAII's combat unrealistic. And that's just not true.

• The Warrior greatsword animations are realistic. What isn't realistic about them is when the Warrior has no stamina and their attack speed doesn't decrease at all. And the speed dash Fenris and Carver do.
  
• The Mage distance animations are realistic, though people dislike the twirl at the end. Frankly, I don't see much of a problem with it because the mages are at a distance. That said, if they wanted to change it to more of a "You shall not pass!" type final animation, I wouldn't mind. The CQC Mage animations are realistic and look like they have force and power in their swings.
  
• The Archer distance animations are realistic. Especially now that the bows actually bend whereas in Origins the bows didn't. Now Bioware just needs to add bowstrings to the bows. The Archer CQC animations are for the most part realistic. The jump-spin knife attack may not be, but I don't know. It doesn't bother me.
  
• The S&S Warrior animations from what I recall looked realistic. To address an earlier point about how they don't look like they actually connect with the enemy, the same could be said of Origins' animations. However, Aveline's speed dash where she ****s fire isn't realistic. I'm sure Bioware could make it a touch more realistic. Like.... no ****ting fire. Maybe try and make it look like she's running.
  
• The DW Rogue animations however suffer from a problem of looking stiff and lifeless. I'm not counting the 15 ft. distance jump in my point. The basic animations are stiff, lifeless, and too arm-y. They look like they don't have any power behind the swings. The rogue just pulls the daggers out and says "Hey! Look at my daggers! Now they're here!"

As for the abilities/spells, some are unrealistic while others aren't. To save time, I'm only going to point out a few realistic and unrealistic ones. However, this does not mean that each is equal in their level of realism. Some may only be slightly unrealistic, but are still placed in the unrealistic group alongside the incredibly unrealistic ones.


Realistic abilities/spells:

• Shield Bash (Completely realistic)
  
• Assault (Completely)
  
• Fireball (completely)
  
• Winter's Grasp (completely)
  
• Cone of Cold (completely)
  
• Stonefist (completely)
  
• Pinning Shot (completely)
  
• Archer's Lance (slightly - completely, depending on how many enemies are in the path)

Unrealistic abilities/spells

• Hail of Arrows (the Awakening version was more realistic)
  
• Mighty Blow (completely unrealistic. The warrior should slam their sword into the ground without jumping)
  
• Scythe (slightly)
  
• Hemorrhage (completely)

Those are what I can remember for the unrealistic group, as I haven't played DAII for a while.

What's definitely unrealistic about the DA series' combat is how mindless the enemies are. They exhibit no tactics whatsoever. What's worse is that they use the Origins animations with a 2% increase to attack speed and don't use any abilities we use.

The enemies need to use:

• The same animations
  
• Cross class combos
  
• at least some of the same abilities/spells
  
• their own unique attacks

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 septembre 2011 - 02:31 .

[alex90c]

* The Warrior greatsword animations are realistic. What isn't realistic about them is when the Warrior has no stamina and their attack speed doesn't decrease at all. And the speed dash Fenris and Carver do.

How the hell are they realistic? First there's a normal slash, the second animation has the character bringing the sword down with ONE hand, the third I don't even know wtf it is, the fourth is just some cheap follow-through with one hand and the last one doesn't make any sense at all.

The Mage distance animations are realistic, though people dislike the twirl at the end. Frankly, I don't see much of a problem with it because the mages are at a distance. That said, if they wanted to change it to more of a "You shall not pass!" type final animation, I wouldn't mind. The CQC Mage animations are realistic and look like they have force and power in their swings.

realistic, such as the fourth animation where the character actually turns their back away from an enemy and fires their stave with one hand? That and the twirl at the end were stupid, the other three were decent enough.

The Archer distance animations are realistic. Especially now that the bows actually bend whereas in Origins the bows didn't. Now Bioware just needs to add bowstrings to the bows. The Archer CQC animations are for the most part realistic. The jump-spin knife attack may not be, but I don't know. It doesn't bother me.

"hey i'm gonna use assassinate on this guy so i'll BACKFLIP then fire". yeah... no.

Basic animations were fine, though if Bioware got archery of all things wrong then something would have just been messed up since it's just pulling a string.

# The S&S Warrior animations from what I recall looked realistic. To address an earlier point about how they don't look like they actually connect with the enemy, the same could be said of Origins' animations. However, Aveline's speed dash where she ****s fire isn't realistic. I'm sure Bioware could make it a touch more realistic. Like.... no ****ting fire. Maybe try and make it look like she's running.

That was probably me.

Problem with the DA2 ones was that it being so fast just made it really stand out. "hey look at Aveline doing these wanktastic animations which aren't even touching this guy!" whereas due to the more believable nature of the Origins' ones it was easier to overlook. I thought every single one of the closing moves were just flat out awful though, the retarded rogue jump, skateboarding Aveline and that crap Carver and Fenris did.

The DW Rogue animations however suffer from a problem of looking stiff and lifeless. I'm not counting the 15 ft. distance jump in my point. The basic animations are stiff, lifeless, and too arm-y. They look like they don't have any power behind the swings. The rogue just pulls the daggers out and says "Hey! Look at my daggers! Now they're here!"

Spot on. The first animation is literally just laying your dagger out in front of you. Cue ENEMY EXPLODING IN TO LEGO BRICKS.

*slams head against desk*

Assault (Completely)

Dunno how the hell that was realistic. Aveline slashes, then rotates her body in a 360 and as she makes her way back to the way she was standing before she slams her shield and then slashes with her sword then slashes again. Whenever I saw that I was just left thinking after the first slash you'd lose your sense of direction and momentum by the time you finished your 360, plus you're leaving yourself wide open by exposing your entire back.

Blergh.

I have such an intense hatred of the combat in that game it's actually made it impossible for me to even play it for five minutes (literally) :/

[philippe willaume]

Hello
@TEWR
By realistic I take you mean what they might look like in a profane expectations, if that the case, to a certain extend I do agree.
In fact I think that most of what you can actually do fencing with a longsword would be qualified of unrealistic but I would look good as finishing moves.

My point is that I can suspend disbelief enough to see through it.
After all we are talking about fantasy. Yes some animation could get a bit less manga-esque but it is not a combat simulator.

Over 10 year of teaching and sparing, have clearly showed me that a long sword/two handed sword is quicker, nimbler and more precise than any one handed weapon, with or without shield/second weapon.
Those retarded swings, cretin jumps/turns and generally taking the weapon or the shield of the immediate attack lines will get you minced by any remotely competent opponent
The damage potential of a longsword/two handed sword is leages beyond any single-handed sword let alone a dagger.
A kinky outfit, two large dagger against a full plate opponent will result with the kinky outfit resident being history 99.999999999999% of the time.
To fight against armour you need to trust where there is only mail and no plate, if armour was like medieval armour that is.
Not to mention that there is no effort to break the distance and gain a dominant position

As I said, I do agree with you that some animation are too arane/action and not enough place has been left for a more tactical approach, but the weapons usages is far from realistic.

phil

[jsachun]

Dunstan wrote...

I don't mind using the pause button, I'd just like to use it less often in harder difficulty. But that's not a big problem for me, although a speed slider would be great and I think worth it.
(I should mention I have no idea how long it would take ect. for Bioware to do a speed slider for DA3)

Well, I think the unpause type of game is probably better suited for a single character & first person view game than a game that is suppose to involve controlling of 1 character plus 3 companions. I think just for this fact alone the combat in Dragon age should be more tactical rather than like an arcade game.

Modifié par jsachun, 16 septembre 2011 - 09:53 .

[Gotholhorakh]

jsachun wrote...

I just bought DA 2 on sale. And my first impression of the new combat system that has been highly boasted about feels somehow lacking in the overall need for pause, plan, position & execute. It feels more like a third person hack & slash game I use to play at high school with some special moves. Does it get any better at higher difficulty? I can't believe skillsets of classes were designed around realistic combat(i.e no dw warriors with longswords), yet it features a rogue that flys around like a fictional kungfu master in the Chinese Movies.

It's mass effect's combat with spells instead of guns, animatiolepsy and a sprinkling of Tekken. Your mileage may vary, it doesn't really "change" as you progress except you're able to do more stuff, which is at least what you might expect, and I suppose that might be what you might be asking.

You talk about pause, plan, position, play - this is how I used to play DA:O, too. I wouldn't hold your breath for any resurgence of that kind of combat - as far as I can tell, if you liked this sort of gameplay, forget it, you're not wanted as a customer any more, to coin an excellent phrase someone used, fans of that ilk are "collateral damage".

(moan, moan, moan.)

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 21 septembre 2011 - 10:45 .

[TEWR]

How the hell are they realistic? First there's a normal slash, the second animation has the character bringing the sword down with ONE hand, the third I don't even know wtf it is, the fourth is just some cheap follow-through with one hand and the last one doesn't make any sense at all.

Okay, more realistic than Origins' animations. Though to be fair, Oghren and Sten sometimes used one hand as well.

Have the characters use both hands when swinging though, and it'll be realistic.   They actually do use both hands.

related question though: how did they actually make the animations? Motion capture with someone holding a real greatsword?

realistic, such as the fourth animation where the character actually turns their back away from an enemy and fires their stave with one hand? That and the twirl at the end were stupid, the other three were decent enough.

I liked them enough and thought they were fine. I mean, considering mage bolts don't miss their target (something that was established as a type of lore in the loading screens of Origins), there's not much of a problem to me. And that mages fight from a distance, so rotating the body isn't that bad, especially if you're firing off bolts of fire, lightning, ice, nature or even spirit. Fire burns, lightning paralyzes, ice freezes, and spirit deals with the soul. Nature could be attributed to a poison or toxin that stuns, and indeed that's what Beraht's Revenge in all of it's flipper-looking glory did for me.

"hey i'm gonna use assassinate on this guy so i'll BACKFLIP then fire". yeah... no.

Basic animations were fine, though if Bioware got archery of all things wrong then something would have just been messed up since it's just pulling a string.

I guess Evade could be changed to either the spin dodge the Warden did in the Sacred Ashes trailer when fighting the High Dragon or just a simple backflip that doesn't move the character back.

Though I have to say that despite the unrealistic nature of the backflip (so I believe. I know people can do backflips, but I doubt they can do one that sends them back a few feet), I really do enjoy that move.

I don't mind some moves being over-the-top. Origins had its fair share of over-the-top moves and no one complained. I mean really, shouting at the top of your lungs sends someone flying back?

That was probably me.

Problem with the DA2 ones was that it being so fast just made it really stand out. "hey look at Aveline doing these wanktastic animations which aren't even touching this guy!" whereas due to the more believable nature of the Origins' ones it was easier to overlook. I thought every single one of the closing moves were just flat out awful though, the retarded rogue jump, skateboarding Aveline and that crap Carver and Fenris did.

I'll have to examine it closely to see if they do look like they connect, because it seemed that way to me.

Agreed on the closing moves for Aveline. She literally ****s fire when she does that. But the rogue jump I don't mind distance wise. Height wise is a whole different matter.

I wouldn't mind Fenris' and Carver's closing moves if it actually looked like they moved their feet, but to me this is a minor grievance that I can overlook since I won't be paying much attention to their feet when I'm playing.

Dunno how the hell that was realistic. Aveline slashes, then rotates her body in a 360 and as she makes her way back to the way she was standing before she slams her shield and then slashes with her sword then slashes again. Whenever I saw that I was just left thinking after the first slash you'd lose your sense of direction and momentum by the time you finished your 360, plus you're leaving yourself wide open by exposing your entire back.

Blergh.

I have such an intense hatred of the combat in that game it's actually made it impossible for me to even play it for five minutes (literally) :/

Swords tend to cut through armor, and Aveline's spin does damage to all the enemies around her. It's a crowd control thing, whereas Origins' was only against one person.

Though I wouldn't mind a slight damage reduction after the spin to say that she might be a tad disoriented from doing a crowd control move like that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 septembre 2011 - 06:43 .

[dragonfire100]

jsachun wrote...

I just bought DA 2 on sale. And my first impression of the new combat system that has been highly boasted about feels somehow lacking in the overall need for pause, plan, position & execute. It feels more like a third person hack & slash game I use to play at high school with some special moves. Does it get any better at higher difficulty? I can't believe skillsets of classes were designed around realistic combat(i.e no dw warriors with longswords), yet it features a rogue that flys around like a fictional kungfu master in the Chinese Movies.

Well i like DA2's combat much better because it drawsyou the player in a new field of action and speeds things up i like origins combat but it was slow and to much waiting when your skilld charge up in DA2 they focus on your main attacks which is what i like about a game like this its kinda like fable.

[Boiny Bunny]

Personally, I've never had much of a problem with the speed or animations. What bothers me is simply the nature of the wave spawns. I find that a great deal of strategy is removed from the game by having enemies spawn on top of my mage/bow characters every few seconds.

Inevitably, it just becomes a game of constant re-positioning and kiting on Nightmare. I have no problem with enemies flanking you from behind - if it is a genuine flank and your fault for leaving those characters exposed - but teleporting in right on top of them is a bit much...

[SilentK]

Elhanan wrote...

If childish = fun, then agreed.

I agree with you          

I don't get too caught up in realism and how it "should" look. I play a lot more when there is much at work simply to turn my my head off from the real world stuff. I have much more fun with the fighting now in DAII and have even tried to up my strategic skills so that I can go up one lvl difficulty. I'm pretty much a story-gamer so that was something pretty cool for me. Whatever they are doing, it's working for me at least.

[jsachun]

Okay, so I am playing Act 3 right now, got Hawke's Sister killed on the way by taking her down the deepend, and am stuck with using Anders the Abomination as the healer in the group. I'm finding that now there is a bit of tactics involved in the combat (but very rarely) as I always have to take out the archers first as they do ridculously large amounts of damage. Is dexterity any good in avoiding arrows, or has Bioware not thought of the ability of dodging arrows in the combat engine?

Modifié par jsachun, 22 septembre 2011 - 11:25 .

[Huntress]

I like the combat for Mages and rogues in da2 but I sometimes miss the finishing move from DAO, nothing is so cool as Multiple decapitations lol!
I know few people have problem with the speed of the combat, I use /space to pause if it goes too fast, no I don't count how many times my rogue hit the enemies on the back, but you can do that in DAO and fall sleep before the guy hit the ground. lol!

[Sabotin]

The archers are doing normal damage, they just don't miss often. I guess they have "high attack" or something.

Anyway I don't really find the combat childish. The animations don't exactly adhere to my preference, but that's a) an aesthetics issue and my personal preference.

The issue I have with the combat is about the encounter design, which seems to be rarely present at all. I have to say though, that that aspect is notably improved in the Legacy DLC and I hope they continue going that way.

[jsachun]

Dunstan wrote...

I'm not saying I want to throw tactics and pausing out of the window, which from my point of view it seems you implied that I do. I'd just like combat speed to be a little slower really, as you've probably assumed I'm a console gamer and the speed of the basic attacks is much faster than the PC.

Which to me makes no sense since I'd say it's harder to control on a console, but I guess it could've had something to do with Bioware advertising DA2 as a "Not stop awesome action" game.

If you don't know what I'm talking about look at a video of any melee class on 360, then PC, you'll see quite a difference in speed.

No, I haven't assumed you are a console gamer. All I was pointing out was that the continuous flow of combat as oppose to stop start type of combat is better suited for a First person Shooter/slasher game. I also enjoy FPS games. The game that I'm playing at the momment Borderlands, which is a cross between a Shooter & RPG SH_TS over Masseffect 2 anyday in my opinion. All I was implying was the fact that the pause & tactical combat system in DA:O is what made the action stand out from the rest, but DA 2 combat system feels a bit more common or similar to the rest of the hack & slash genre.  

Also, another thing that I would like to criticise/complain about in DA 2 is the lack of progressive environment/scenery. It is tedious to continuously wonder around the same map over & over again. If the sense of exploration was the determining factor, they should have at least made the map bigger & or had more of the map accessible.

Modifié par jsachun, 22 septembre 2011 - 01:22 .