162 réponses à ce sujet

[RagingCyclone]

See, I just don't see these two getting into fistiacuffs:


He ridicules her...she slaps him...they have hot hate sex...find they actually like each other and run off together...and when people "hear" them and when they try to find the Hero and the Champion all they find left is a pile of clothes on the floor...and this goes on for about 23 years. But, hey, that's just me...I like a happy ending.

[thats1evildude]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Neither were any of these but they didn't run away. Neither did the Warden, he still went prior to even being a Warden, he still did as asked by duncan and the king [his duty to king and country and world even to stop blight and save everyone even almost died doing so] and went to the tower and would of been just as happy gong to fight front lines instead but was ordered to the tower. At which time Hawkie was running away instead.

But Warrior/Rogue Hawke did fight the darkspawn. I don't know where you're getting the idea that s/he ran away before the final battle.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:54 .

[Dragoonlordz]

thats1evildude wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Neither were any of these but they didn't run away. Neither did the Warden, he still went prior to even being a Warden, he still did as asked by duncan and the king [his duty to king and country and world even to stop blight and save everyone even almost died doing so] and went to the tower and would of been just as happy gong to fight front lines instead but was ordered to the tower. At which time Hawkie was running away instead.

But Warrior/Rogue Hawke did fight the darkspawn. I don't know where you're getting the idea that s/he ran away before the final battle.

I get the idea from the fact the game starts with him and his family [running away], up a hill to [escape] the blight. He might have run into a few darkspawn while running away but he was still running away at the time, they fled the entire country and had no intention of going back to help fight and stop them.

"if Hawke fled the battlefield" = To flee is to run away, unlike the Warden who did not flee and in fact would of died if had not been picked up by Flemmeth, he actually was dying due to staying and fighting. As opposed to Hawke at risk of dying while running away at which time met Flemmeth.

The Warden stayed and fought, all the random NPC troops with no special qualiies stayed and fought, all those reinforcements at fight end of game [dragon fight] also stayed and fought. In the end Hawke did not, he ran instead and never looked back.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:58 .

[esper]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Neither were any of these but they didn't run away. Neither did the Warden, he still went prior to even being a Warden, he still did as asked by duncan and the king [his duty to king and country and world even to stop blight and save everyone even almost died doing so] and went to the tower and would of been just as happy gong to fight front lines instead but was ordered to the tower. At which time Hawkie was running away instead.

But Warrior/Rogue Hawke did fight the darkspawn. I don't know where you're getting the idea that s/he ran away before the final battle.

I get the idea from the fact the game starts with him and his family [running away], up a hill to [escape] the blight. He might have run into a few darkspawn while running away but he was still running away at the time, they fled the entire country and had no intention of going back to help fight and stop them.

"if Hawke fled the battlefield" = To flee is to run away, unlike the Warden who did not flee and in fact would of died if had not been picked up by Flemmeth, he actually was dying due to staying and fighting. As opposed to Hawke at risk of dying while running away at which time met Flemmeth.

Hawke/Carver ran after the signal was light and the army overrun because of Loghain's betrayl. Lothering had just been destroyed at the start of da2. The warden reaches Lothering before the darkspawn horde. Therefore the battle at the tower was long over when Hawke and Carver ran.

[thats1evildude]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I get the idea from the fact the game starts with him and his family [running away], up a hill to [escape] the blight. He might have run into a few darkspawn while running away but he was still running away at the time, they fled the entire country and had no intention of going back to help fight and stop them.

But that still doesn't indicate that Hawke didn't fight at Ostagar. That shows Hawke fleeing Lothering just barely ahead of the darkspawn horde, which arrived only after the Warden had passed through there.

Look, even if you ignore all the references to Hawke actually having fought the darkspawn at Ostagar, the timeline doesn't work any other way. If Hawke fled the battlefield before Cailan got killed, then how s/he and Carver only only make it to Lothering AFTER the Warden? That doesn't make any sense.

esper wrote...

Hawke/Carver ran after the signal was light and the army overrun because of Loghain's betrayl. Lothering had just been destroyed at the start of da2. The warden reaches Lothering before the darkspawn horde. Therefore the battle at the tower was long over when Hawke and Carver ran.

Yes, exactly.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 06 septembre 2011 - 06:02 .

[Dragoonlordz]

esper wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Neither were any of these but they didn't run away. Neither did the Warden, he still went prior to even being a Warden, he still did as asked by duncan and the king [his duty to king and country and world even to stop blight and save everyone even almost died doing so] and went to the tower and would of been just as happy gong to fight front lines instead but was ordered to the tower. At which time Hawkie was running away instead.

But Warrior/Rogue Hawke did fight the darkspawn. I don't know where you're getting the idea that s/he ran away before the final battle.

I get the idea from the fact the game starts with him and his family [running away], up a hill to [escape] the blight. He might have run into a few darkspawn while running away but he was still running away at the time, they fled the entire country and had no intention of going back to help fight and stop them.

"if Hawke fled the battlefield" = To flee is to run away, unlike the Warden who did not flee and in fact would of died if had not been picked up by Flemmeth, he actually was dying due to staying and fighting. As opposed to Hawke at risk of dying while running away at which time met Flemmeth.

Hawke/Carver ran after the signal was light and the army overrun because of Loghain's betrayl. Lothering had just been destroyed at the start of da2. The warden reaches Lothering before the darkspawn horde. Therefore the battle at the tower was long over when Hawke and Carver ran.

Makes no difference, the whole of DA2 is based on the fact Hawke and his family "ran away to escape the blight and start over". Arguing with me over whether he ran or not is pointless. The fact he never stayed, never went back to help, had the ability to kill dragons, thousends of street bandits and shades, yet he couldn't lend his strength to save Ferelden or go back help fight the blight? Yeh he's a coward for running away and never looking back not caring if Ferelden burned or if he could go back and help. People with less combat ability or strength did stay in Fereldan to fight but Hawke did not.

A coward is someone who looks the other way when see's something bad happening, that is exactly what he did, he ran and looked the other way while Fereldan [his homeland] was being ravaged even though he clearly had the combat ability to aid.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 06 septembre 2011 - 06:12 .

[thats1evildude]

From my Hawke's perspective, Ferelden was already lost. Fighting the darkspawn had already cost him one sibling; he wasn't going to stay and lose the rest of his family, not when he had no way of effectively combating the horde.

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Arguing with me over whether he ran or not is pointless.

Well, you did make a mistake when you said that Hawke ran before the final battle at Ostagar.

But I agree: trying to argue with you IS pointless.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 06 septembre 2011 - 06:36 .

[Dragoonlordz]

thats1evildude wrote...

From my Hawke's perspective, Ferelden was already lost. Fighting the darkspawn had already cost him one sibling; he wasn't going to stay and lose the rest of his family.

So he put himself and his family above an entire country? Hardly a person worthy of the title 'Hero' of Kirkwall is it; not that he deserved that title to begin with. If you ask me your Hawke was making subconscious excuses which is what cowards to to justify not acting to save/help others in need. Someone who put's himself first is selfish someone who puts other first is selfless, the latter deserves title hero while the former does not.

P.s. I am pretty sure I did not say 'when' he ran so please don't say something I do not think I said. I merely said He didn't stay while the Warden did until almost died and was stolen away from fight while unconcious as opposed to Hawke who consciously chose to run however I didn't say he was never there.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 06 septembre 2011 - 06:45 .

[esper]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

esper wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Neither were any of these but they didn't run away. Neither did the Warden, he still went prior to even being a Warden, he still did as asked by duncan and the king [his duty to king and country and world even to stop blight and save everyone even almost died doing so] and went to the tower and would of been just as happy gong to fight front lines instead but was ordered to the tower. At which time Hawkie was running away instead.

But Warrior/Rogue Hawke did fight the darkspawn. I don't know where you're getting the idea that s/he ran away before the final battle.

I get the idea from the fact the game starts with him and his family [running away], up a hill to [escape] the blight. He might have run into a few darkspawn while running away but he was still running away at the time, they fled the entire country and had no intention of going back to help fight and stop them.

"if Hawke fled the battlefield" = To flee is to run away, unlike the Warden who did not flee and in fact would of died if had not been picked up by Flemmeth, he actually was dying due to staying and fighting. As opposed to Hawke at risk of dying while running away at which time met Flemmeth.

Hawke/Carver ran after the signal was light and the army overrun because of Loghain's betrayl. Lothering had just been destroyed at the start of da2. The warden reaches Lothering before the darkspawn horde. Therefore the battle at the tower was long over when Hawke and Carver ran.

Makes no difference, the whole of DA2 is based on the fact Hawke and his family "ran away to escape the blight and start over". Arguing with me over whether he ran or not is pointless. The fact he never stayed, never went back to help, had the ability to kill dragons, thousends of street bandits and shades, yet he couldn't lend his strength to save Ferelden or go back help fight the blight? Yeh he's a coward for running away and never looking back not caring if Ferelden burned or if he could go back and help. People with less combat ability or strength did stay in Fereldan to fight but Hawke did not.

A coward is someone who looks the other way when see's something bad happening, that is exactly what he did, he ran and looked the other way while Fereldan [his homeland] was being ravaged even though he clearly had the combat ability to aid.

Sometimes it is better to be a wise coward and save what you can than to stand and fight a battle you know is lost.

Hawke saved his family which s/he was responisble for. I have no tolerance for cowards who chooses to stay and fight when they have the chance to withdrew and perhaps someday fight the battle where they can win it - espaciall not if they in the process of doing so sacrifices the people they are supposed to protect and their loved one.
My non-human wardens would have left Feraldan too and gone for help in Orlais if they could have. After all neither Hawke nor Warden is aware that they have plot shield and thus can do the impossible, by the time Hawke is strong enough to slay countless of dragons and street thugs the blight is over and going back would be pointless.

[Dragoonlordz]

esper wrote...

Sometimes it is better to be a wise coward and save what you can than to stand and fight a battle you know is lost.

Hawke saved his family which s/he was responisble for. I have no tolerance for cowards who chooses to stay and fight when they have the chance to withdrew and perhaps someday fight the battle where they can win it - espaciall not if they in the process of doing so sacrifices the people they are supposed to protect and their loved one.
My non-human wardens would have left Feraldan too and gone for help in Orlais if they could have. After all neither Hawke nor Warden is aware that they have plot shield and thus can do the impossible, by the time Hawke is strong enough to slay countless of dragons and street thugs the blight is over and going back would be pointless.

Your logic is greatly flawed. A coward doesn't choose to stay and fight. A coward runs or avoids that is what makes them a coward. Unless your saying the people stayed to fight because they were 'afraid of living' then your logic is vastly flawed. You saying your Warden would of ran just shows that you would of chose the cowardly approach if story didn't force you to stay and if not cowardly to you then selfish which in being so should not be called a hero, he never stayed to fight the blight and help save Ferelden / he never even saved Kirkwall or stopped the war he or she deserves no title. It is not impossible and thats stupid, if was impossible then Warden would not have succeded, that was not the case. All those people who were vastly weaker than Hawke also stayed each and everyone of the ones who even fought in the final battle and all through game in the scenes while traveling between places.

Your whole run away to fight another day only works if that person ever had the intention of going back to help, he did not. In fact you said you would of run away given chance in first place even if was using Warden and because you thought was impossible to win you would never have gone back to fight again. Which removes the "fight another day" part of the "run away to" bit in sentence run away to fight another day. He just ran away.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 06 septembre 2011 - 07:01 .

[thats1evildude]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
If you ask me your Hawke was making subconscious excuses which is what cowards to to justify not acting to save/help others in need. Someone who put's himself first is selfish someone who puts other first is selfless, the latter deserves title hero while the former does not.

But Hawke didn't put himself above Ferelden. He fought at Ostagar. He tried to defeat the darkspawn. And he and Carver barely made it out alive.

Unlike the Warden, he wasn't drafted into an ancient order that granted immunity from the darkspawn taint, and after the battle was over, he didn't have any treaties to raise an army.

He only thought of trying to leave the country once Ferelden's army was defeated, the king was slain, Lothering was destroyed and he and his family were fleeing the ruins of their home village with the darkspawn nipping at their heels. In other words, when staying to fight meant staying to die for no reason.

So yes, after all that, he decided to put the welfare of his rapidly-dwindling family above a country fighting a pointless civil war while the darkspawn ravaged the countryside. He accepted Flemeth's offer of safe passage only when the witch made it clear that Hawke's group was surrounded by the darkspawn on all sides and she was quite willing to leave them all to die in the Wilds.

Dragoonlordz wrote...

 Hardly a person worthy of the title 'Hero' of Kirkwall is it; not that he deserved that title to begin with.

Note: Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall, not the "Hero" of Kirkwall.

From the Codex:

Champion is not itself a sign of approval. He or she can be respected or feared, their coming dreaded as much as desired. All that is common is that they have an effect and lives are changed.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 06 septembre 2011 - 07:40 .

[Dragoonlordz]

thats1evildude wrote...
He only thought of trying to get away from the horde once Ferelden's army was defeated, the king was slain.

He must of ran away before the end because else he wouldn't of been alive to run in first place.

Lothering was destroyed.

Happened after Ostagar fell which means he must of run away during the battle in order to make it to Lothering in time to grab family and continue running away. He didn't run away to fight another day, he ran away with no intention of ever coming back. Lothering was one tiny village, one battle at Ostagar and one village and all of sudden decided entire Fereldan would crumble... Talk about pessimist.

Above a country fighting a pointless civil war while the darkspawn ravaged the countryside.

There was no civil war at the time, that happened after he had ran away.

In the end your both making excuses and reasons to why you ran away, while I am not making excuses or reasons why anything; just stating fact he did run away, he fled Lothering, fled the country, and fled darkspawn. In which he never intended to ever go back and his running away to save himself and family out of fear instead of staying to help fight was imho the act of a coward.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 06 septembre 2011 - 07:33 .

[thats1evildude]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

He must of ran away before the end because else he wouldn't of been alive to run in first place.

Not everyone who fought in the battle of Ostagar died. Aveline fought alongside Cailan and she managed to survive the battle. Wynne fought at Ostagar and she was able to get away.

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There was no civil war at the time, that happened after he had ran away.

The civil war was already starting by the time the Warden reached Lothering, and the Warden arrived in Lothering ahead of Hawke. Ergo, the civil war would have started by the time Hawke reached Lothering.

Dragoonlordz wrote..

Lothering was one tiny village, one battle at Ostagar and one village and all of sudden decided entire Fereldan would crumble...

Most of Ferelden's army was at Ostagar. After the battle was lost, the country no longer had the forces necessary to actually stand against the Blight. And even with all the troops gathered by the Warden, they still didn't have enough men to defeat the darkspawn; the Blight was only ended with the death of the Archdemon. Which required a Grey Warden. Which Hawke was not.

Dragoonlordz wrote..

In the end your both making excuses and reasons to why you ran away, while I am not making excuses or reasons why anything; just stating fact he did run away, he fled Lothering, fled the country, and fled darkspawn.

I'm just not holding Hawke to an impossible standard. Sacrificing your whole family to fight for a hopeless cause isn't brave, it's just stupid.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 06 septembre 2011 - 07:39 .

[RagingCyclone]

Dragoonlordz...I think what they are trying to tell you is that Hawke was living under this saying...and I kinda agree with it..."Only a fool fights in a burning house"

[esper]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

esper wrote...

Sometimes it is better to be a wise coward and save what you can than to stand and fight a battle you know is lost.

Hawke saved his family which s/he was responisble for. I have no tolerance for cowards who chooses to stay and fight when they have the chance to withdrew and perhaps someday fight the battle where they can win it - espaciall not if they in the process of doing so sacrifices the people they are supposed to protect and their loved one.
My non-human wardens would have left Feraldan too and gone for help in Orlais if they could have. After all neither Hawke nor Warden is aware that they have plot shield and thus can do the impossible, by the time Hawke is strong enough to slay countless of dragons and street thugs the blight is over and going back would be pointless.

Your logic is greatly flawed. A coward doesn't choose to stay and fight. A coward runs or avoids that is what makes them a coward. Unless your saying the people stayed to fight because they were 'afraid of living' then your logic is vastly flawed. You saying your Warden would of ran just shows that you would of chose the cowardly approach if story didn't force you to stay and if not cowardly to you then selfish which in being so should not be called a hero, he never stayed to fight the blight and help save Ferelden / he never even saved Kirkwall or stopped the war he or she deserves no title. It is not impossible and thats stupid, if was impossible then Warden would not have succeded, that was not the case. All those people who were vastly weaker than Hawke also stayed each and everyone of the ones who even fought in the final battle and all through game in the scenes while traveling between places.

Your whole run away to fight another day only works if that person ever had the intention of going back to help, he did not. In fact you said you would of run away given chance in first place even if was using Warden and because you thought was impossible to win you would never have gone back to fight again. Which removes the "fight another day" part of the "run away to" bit in sentence run away to fight another day. He just ran away.

I meant courage who stays and fight. Typo from my side there, sorry. I was thinking too far ahead. Sometime my thoughts are a lot faster than my writing...

Figthing a hopeless battle with not chance of winning is not admirable. Espcially not if by doing so you doom the people you have a duty to protect. Hawke is the head of the family. S/he is suposse to protect them. By the time Hawke and Carver reaches Lothering it is too late to stay and fight. Had they done it, Leandra would have died and by all logic, Hawke, Carver and Bethany too because they have not reached the level they have in act 1.
 Hawke and Carver have just been a part of and army that was defeated by the darkspawn they have no reason to think that  they can battle them. They prove that they can, but by then they have a debt to repay and once it is repaid the battle is over.

It is by all logic impossible for two wardens to stop a blight, by some reason they pulls through because of plot reason and the fact that the story of da:o is the classic underdog saves the day against all odds. My Mahariel wanted to go to Orlais where the wardens who was better, more experienced and knew how to fight the archdemon were. My Surana decided to fight in the fight because she might have a family somewher in Fereldan that risked oblivion, but she knew it was stupid. My Cousland couldn't leave her people behind even if it meant death, had there been a chance to evacuate them, she would have done it and then retreated. 

Death is death. Matyrdom is stupid because you have no gurantee that your death will matter, and if you by matyring yourself knows that you sacrifice your love ones - which Hawke would have done by staying in Fereldan then it is beyond stupid.

[Dragoonlordz]

Like I said you lot can make as many reasons and excuses as to why you ran away, but make no mistake you did run away, you did not go back to help stop blight. I'm stating fact that you ran, you ran before the battle ended (so did Aveline with her husband). They ran too and met you while they were running and you was running.

Coward to me = Running, not reacting/helping and/or looking away/turning a blind eye when something bad is happening or others being hurt. That is what they did regardless of excuses you come up with.

/TheEnd < means done talking about exact same thing over and over.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:04 .

[thats1evildude]

Eh. Believe what you like. I'm tired of banging my head against the wall.

In the spirit of discussing the actual topic of the thread, I believe that Hawke and the Warden actually do have some interaction in Act 1, albeit only through letters. After completing the quest Dark Epiphany, Hawke recieves a message from the Warden-Commander of Ferelden thanking him for delivering Avernus' letters.

Given that this would have occured shortly after Awakening, I would think the Hero of Ferelden would still be the Warden-Commander at that point.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:05 .

[Dragoonlordz]

thats1evildude wrote...

In the spirit of discussing something other than DragoonLord's ranting / I'm tired of banging my head against the wall.

Lose the attitude boy. You may not agree with me about anything I say but you are the one who has been arguing with everyone in here and me for no reason other than your pride. Just because someone else jumped on your bandwagon grabbed their pitchforks and torches and started trying to bicker with me about what I thought of Hawke doesn't change fact you two are the ones who have been arguing with me over my opinion of a fictional character.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:15 .

[esper]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Like I said you lot can make as many reasons and excuses as to why you ran away, but make no mistake you did run away, you did not go back to help stop blight. I'm stating fact that you ran, you ran before the battle ended (so did Aveline with her husband). They ran too and met you while they were running and you was running.

Coward to me = Running, not reacting/helping and/or looking away/turning a blind eye when something bad is happening or others being hurt. That is what they did regardless of excuses you come up with.

/TheEnd < means done talking about exact same thing over and over.

And once again. We have cowardice as a part of our minds because sometimes it is the only way to surive, and Hawke did not turn a blind eye. S/he did what he could and what you can reasonably exepct from a normal human being. S/he tried to join the army and help where they could, that failed, and they decided to salavage what they could.
Death does nobody but your enemy good, and I would take a smart coward over a brave corpse any day.

Also in spirit of the thread, my Hawke would demand that my warden helped with the war which my warden wouldn't care about. They would argue and then leave each other never to meet again.

Modifié par esper, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:11 .

[standardpack]

If you guys keep this up it's only a matter of time before the devs shut this topic down. This isn't a topic about whether or not the Champion is a coward or not, take your argument somewhere else.

Modifié par standardpack, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:37 .

[standardpack]

esper wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

.

Also in spirit of the thread, my Hawke would demand that my warden helped with the war which my warden wouldn't care about. They would argue and then leave each other never to meet again.

That's would mine would basically do. 

Hawke: "But the world needs your help again!"

Warden: "Your problem. I already ended a war and you helped to start one, way to go bucko."

[dsl08002]

I once posted this on the forum of the hawkes meeting with the warden:


it would probably be a encounter in DA3 similar as riordan showed in DAO and there will be a talk regarding peace. And the warden would say in the ending of the conversation:

"hawke.. we must do whatever we can to make peace between templars and the mages, i fear if peace is not established very soon then Thedas and ferelden will be exposed for an even greater threat!
"What? the qunari? says hawke
After a Long pause the hero of ferelden says:
.....................Worse!!!

I gave this a lot of thought and i belive this could be a possible encounter

Please Comment

Modifié par dsl08002, 06 septembre 2011 - 09:29 .

[rak72]

RagingCyclone wrote...

See, I just don't see these two getting into fistiacuffs:


He ridicules her...she slaps him...they have hot hate sex...find they actually like each other and run off together...and when people "hear" them and when they try to find the Hero and the Champion all they find left is a pile of clothes on the floor...and this goes on for about 23 years. But, hey, that's just me...I like a happy ending.

I'm telling Lelianna

[alex90c]

dsl08002 wrote...

I once posted this on the forum of the hawkes meeting with the warden:


it would probably be a encounter in DA3 similar as riordan showed in DAO and there will be a talk regarding peace. And the warden would say in the ending of the conversation:

"hawke.. we must do whatever we can to make peace between templars and the mages, i fear if peace is not established very soon then Thedas and ferelden will be exposed for an even greater threat!
"What? the qunari? says hawke
After a Long pause the hero of ferelden says:
.....................Worse!!!

I gave this a lot of thought and i belive this could be a possible encounter

Please Comment

lol

just lol

[UltiPup]

This situation is incredibly easy and possible as long as Bioware had a way to determine personality in Origins. Just apply that with the voices we picked and the Warden is ready. Hawke is easier. Just figuring how they will interact will be interesting. Both are essential members of the change coming to the world. So we have to see them quite a lot.