150 réponses à ce sujet

[D.Kain]

I would like to start by saying that I believe that mages can never live equally amongs normal people. So I thought if mages are so dangerous and can't ever live amongs normal people, why not let mages live somewhere on their own? Like a land where all the mages can go and build themselves cities, magic academies and other stuff. A place where non-mages won't be allowed to go. All the newborn mages could be sent to this land and all non-mages born in that land could be given some gold and sent to the other side of the world.

So in this land everybody will be equal, since everybody is a mage, and in this land mages could find solutions on how to deal with their demon problems on their own. I'm not saying every mage SHOULD go there, it would just be an alternative to living in the circle under the chantry and the templars. 

Some could argue that this could become a second imperium if these mages start to inslave non-mages. But in this land mages should be taught of basic freedom concept, of how this land came to be because they wanted to be free, and how if they inslave other people they will be no better than those that held them captive and opressed. All the power hungry blood mages should be dealt with by the rest of the mage society. 
Maybe even some tevinter mages that don't want to shed blood everyday just to get by will also come to the mage land.

So what do you think? Is this an option? 

[CrimsonZephyr]

It would get invaded. Their children would be enslaved, their women raped, their men killed, and their cities burned. The only viable way for mages to live is to live among others. Being imprisoned in the Circle has already lost its effectiveness and the Imperium offers no solution. Eventually, painful as it might be at first, the normals and the mages are going to have to learn how to live with each other. It might not work, but if they don't try, it will never happen.

[D.Kain]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

It would get invaded. Their children would be enslaved, their women raped, their men killed, and their cities burned. The only viable way for mages to live is to live among others. Being imprisoned in the Circle has already lost its effectiveness and the Imperium offers no solution. Eventually, painful as it might be at first, the normals and the mages are going to have to learn how to live with each other. It might not work, but if they don't try, it will never happen.

But who would invade and hurt them and why? 

Edit: Isn't it very hard to rape or inslave a person that throws fireballs at you with their mind btw? I don't think you could put a mage in a cage, only way is to kill the mage. But why do that?

Modifié par D.Kain, 31 août 2011 - 04:16 .

[Saberchic]

So we need to separate them out because their different?

Not buyin' it. How about when mages are young they are sent to a "boarding school" type institution that can teach them to control their gifts. Then, as they get older, they can go live back at home and still be a part of society, but they would still have to attend classes.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

D.Kain wrote...
A place where non-mages won't be allowed to go. All the newborn mages could be sent to this land and all non-mages born in that land could be given some gold and sent to the other side of the world.

So what do you think? Is this an option?

You cannot seperate a mother from her baby. That baby will not survive without motherly care. And it would creates more resentment for the parents to comply with this regulation.

[D.Kain]

Saberchic wrote...

So we need to separate them out because their different?

Not buyin' it. How about when mages are young they are sent to a "boarding school" type institution that can teach them to control their gifts. Then, as they get older, they can go live back at home and still be a part of society, but they would still have to attend classes.

YES mages should be separated from others. It's for their own good. I'm saying this as a mage lover btw, I ALWAYS play mages.

[D.Kain]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...
A place where non-mages won't be allowed to go. All the newborn mages could be sent to this land and all non-mages born in that land could be given some gold and sent to the other side of the world.

So what do you think? Is this an option?

You cannot seperate a mother from her baby. That baby will not survive without motherly care. And it would creates more resentment for the parents to comply with this regulation.

Circle does the same. How about those people that FINISH the circle and want to be free? 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I've considered this solution before, and it might work if said land was far away from Thedas, like in unexplored, uncharted territories,

However, it is likely to be far from utopian. Teaching people "freedom is good" does not override basic human nature. Whatever kind of society the mages built, it would likely be different from others in Thedas, but how really depends on their own choices.

There is the Circle Fraternity, the Isolationists, who would certainly support this solution. Though how many mages would want to go is up in the air. Regardless, the Chantry won't let go of the mages, they need them too badly.

I would, however, not be surprised if, after the order breaks down and the Circles have revolted, in the Chaos, mages who are members of the isolationist fraternity go off somewhere very remote and distant and start a small colony or something. It's certainly part of their fraternity beliefs, and with no templars holding them back, they will probably leave the Circles and go find somewhere away from everything.

[Saberchic]

D.Kain wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

So we need to separate them out because their different?

Not buyin' it. How about when mages are young they are sent to a "boarding school" type institution that can teach them to control their gifts. Then, as they get older, they can go live back at home and still be a part of society, but they would still have to attend classes.

YES mages should be separated from others. It's for their own good. I'm saying this as a mage lover btw, I ALWAYS play mages.

For their own good? I'm not sure how it's for their own good. To me, it sounds like your solution is like one born out of fear from the perspective of someone who is afraid of magic.

You're talking about breaking up families, and that could lead to a lot of resentment. Not to mention being forcibly shipped off somewhere if the mage doesn't want to go. Segregation doesn't work. 

What's to keep those who become resentful about being forced to leave from coming back and getting even by trying to take over?

[D.Kain]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I've considered this solution before, and it might work if said land was far away from Thedas, like in unexplored, uncharted territories,

However, it is likely to be far from utopian. Teaching people "freedom is good" does not override basic human nature. Whatever kind of society the mages built, it would likely be different from others in Thedas, but how really depends on their own choices.

There is the Circle Fraternity, the Isolationists, who would certainly support this solution. Though how many mages would want to go is up in the air. Regardless, the Chantry won't let go of the mages, they need them too badly.

I would, however, not be surprised if, after the order breaks down and the Circles have revolted, in the Chaos, mages who are members of the isolationist fraternity go off somewhere very remote and distant and start a small colony or something. It's certainly part of their fraternity beliefs, and with no templars holding them back, they will probably leave the Circles and go find somewhere away from everything.

What do you mean by saying that chantry needs mages? I didn't quite get that. 

Also a question for everybody: are children often not mages if both parents are mages? If both parents are mages after say 3 generations?

[Sacred_Fantasy]

D.Kain wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...
A place where non-mages won't be allowed to go. All the newborn mages could be sent to this land and all non-mages born in that land could be given some gold and sent to the other side of the world.

So what do you think? Is this an option?

You cannot seperate a mother from her baby. That baby will not survive without motherly care. And it would creates more resentment for the parents to comply with this regulation.

Circle does the same. How about those people that FINISH the circle and want to be free? 

That's what I think that lead to this resentment. The child grow up as unhappy person and as a result we get Anders.

For those that already FINISH the circle, I believe Wynne already answer that. Even First Enchanter Irving also mentioned those who prove themselves capable of dealing with the magic can leave the circle as the free man.

[D.Kain]

Saberchic wrote...

For their own good? I'm not sure how it's for their own good. To me, it sounds like your solution is like one born out of fear from the perspective of someone who is afraid of magic.

You're talking about breaking up families, and that could lead to a lot of resentment. Not to mention being forcibly shipped off somewhere if the mage doesn't want to go. Segregation doesn't work. 

What's to keep those who become resentful about being forced to leave from coming back and getting even by trying to take over?

Ok first: If I was a mage, and as I said I love mages and always play mages. I say for THEIR own good because I myself am not a mage in real life, and I'm talking about a fiction. 

So if I was a mage, I would rather live among other mages than amongs normal people, that's my opinion. No stupid stares, no fear, more common problems and goals.

And as I said, circle already does this, I said that this should be an alternative to the circle, and unforced alternative.

Modifié par D.Kain, 31 août 2011 - 04:30 .

[D.Kain]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...
A place where non-mages won't be allowed to go. All the newborn mages could be sent to this land and all non-mages born in that land could be given some gold and sent to the other side of the world.

So what do you think? Is this an option?

You cannot seperate a mother from her baby. That baby will not survive without motherly care. And it would creates more resentment for the parents to comply with this regulation.

Circle does the same. How about those people that FINISH the circle and want to be free? 

That's what I think that lead to this resentment. The child grow up as unhappy person and as a result we get Anders.

For those that already FINISH the circle, I believe Wynne already answer that. Even First Enchanter Irving also mentioned those who prove themselves capable of dealing with the magic can leave the circle as the free man.

Well then why not let children from the circle go to the land as soon as they start having unhappy thoughts?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

D.Kain wrote...


What do you mean by saying that chantry needs mages? I didn't quite get that.

The Circle is one of the Chantry's most powerful political and military tools. Also, it is the use of magic that has been the most effective thing in driving the qunari back, pretty much the trump card that evens the battlefield.

Also a question for everybody: are children often not mages if both parents are mages? If both parents are mages after say 3 generations?

Don't know, but since magic seems to be a recessive trait,, it's likely that most children born to mages will be mages. Even if they are born mundane, i suspect that even such a child would likely be somewhere between a normal person and a mage. What I call a "half a mage".

[D.Kain]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

D.Kain wrote...


What do you mean by saying that chantry needs mages? I didn't quite get that.

The Circle is one of the Chantry's most powerful political and military tools. Also, it is the use of magic that has been the most effective thing in driving the qunari back, pretty much the trump card that evens the battlefield.

Also a question for everybody: are children often not mages if both parents are mages? If both parents are mages after say 3 generations?

Don't know, but since magic seems to be a recessive trait,, it's likely that most children born to mages will be mages. Even if they are born mundane, i suspect that even such a child would likely be somewhere between a normal person and a mage. What I call a "half a mage".

So what would the chantry do if mages went to a land far away? Follow them and try to drag them back?

[Saberchic]

D.Kain wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

For their own good? I'm not sure how it's for their own good. To me, it sounds like your solution is like one born out of fear from the perspective of someone who is afraid of magic.

You're talking about breaking up families, and that could lead to a lot of resentment. Not to mention being forcibly shipped off somewhere if the mage doesn't want to go. Segregation doesn't work. 

What's to keep those who become resentful about being forced to leave from coming back and getting even by trying to take over?

Ok first: If I was a mage, and as I said I love mages and always play mages. I say for THEIR own good because I myself am not a mage in real life, and I'm talking about a fiction. 

So if I was a mage, I would rather live among other mages that amongs normal people, that's my opinion. No stupid stares, no fear, more common problems and goals.

And as I said, circle already does this, I said that this should be an alternative to the circle, and unforced alternative.

Alright. I never said anything about real life versus fiction, so I don't understand why you felt the need to clarify that.

However, it sounds like you roll as an isolationist mage. My mages are not that way at all. Why should they be forced to either be confined to the tower or shipped away? Why not give the the chance to integrate into society? I don't see why they should be forcibly separated (either by the circle or by banishment).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

D.Kain wrote...

So what would the chantry do if mages went to a land far away? Follow them and try to drag them back?

They might try to prevent the exodus in the first place. But yeah, pretty much, I imagine that the main Chantry might do so. Though I imagine a number of Chantry supporters will be happy with the idea if finally being rid of mages and might support such a proposal.

There are various reasons various entities would support such a move.

[D.Kain]

Saberchic wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

For their own good? I'm not sure how it's for their own good. To me, it sounds like your solution is like one born out of fear from the perspective of someone who is afraid of magic.

You're talking about breaking up families, and that could lead to a lot of resentment. Not to mention being forcibly shipped off somewhere if the mage doesn't want to go. Segregation doesn't work. 

What's to keep those who become resentful about being forced to leave from coming back and getting even by trying to take over?

Ok first: If I was a mage, and as I said I love mages and always play mages. I say for THEIR own good because I myself am not a mage in real life, and I'm talking about a fiction. 

So if I was a mage, I would rather live among other mages that amongs normal people, that's my opinion. No stupid stares, no fear, more common problems and goals.

And as I said, circle already does this, I said that this should be an alternative to the circle, and unforced alternative.

Alright. I never said anything about real life versus fiction, so I don't understand why you felt the need to clarify that.

However, it sounds like you roll as an isolationist mage. My mages are not that way at all. Why should they be forced to either be confined to the tower or shipped away? Why not give the the chance to integrate into society? I don't see why they should be forcibly separated (either by the circle or by banishment).

But why? Think of the posibileties. You would live happy with your mage buddies in a beautiful city filled with magic. You probably wouldn't even have to work, everything could be done with magic. And you could explore the mysteries of the fade, and new unknown secrets. Fall in love with a person that is an equal to you and nobody and nothing will ever stand between you two. Wouldn't it be awesome? I just believe that a mage society would be a lot better that a normal society.

Edit: Oh an the reason is unequal people usually get along bad in society. And mages can't by nature be equal. 

Modifié par D.Kain, 31 août 2011 - 04:43 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

D.Kain wrote...



But why? Think of the posibileties. You would live happy with your mage buddies in a beautiful city filled with magic. You probably wouldn't even have to work, everything could be done with magic. And you could explore the mysteries of the fade, and new unknown secrets. Fall in love with a person that is an equal to you and nobody and nothing will ever stand between you two. Wouldn't it be awesome? I just believe that a mage society would be a lot better that a normal society.

Edit: Oh an the reason is unequal people usually get along bad in society. And mages can't by nature be equal. 

I wouldn't go as far to say it would be that magically utopian or wonderful. But the point wouldn't be to create utopia, but to give mages freedom and self-determination to form a society of their own making. Succeed or fail, its a choice they did not have before.

Of course, it's alot more complicated and complex to execute as a whole solution. But for volunteers, it certainly provides a solution, and could be a viable alternative for a number of mages who really can't fit in, or have no desire to fit in, mundane society.

[Saberchic]

D.Kain wrote...
But why? Think of the posibileties. You would live happy with your mage buddies in a beautiful city filled with magic. You probably wouldn't even have to work, everything could be done with magic. And you could explore the mysteries of the fade, and new unknown secrets. Fall in love with a person that is an equal to you and nobody and nothing will ever stand between you two. Wouldn't it be awesome? I just believe that a mage society would be a lot better that a normal society.

There would never be a utopia. Human nature being what it is, you'll find others who will want to dominate and rule. It will be no different than the rest of the world. (The exception is that mgic would most likely be used instead of sword.)

So in your fantasy land, crops, furniture, buildings, etc and all other necessities are done by magic? I hardly think so. And "fall in love with a person that is an equal"????? As if non-mages are less? I'm not going to touch that...

Mage society... all we have to do is talk to Fenris to get an idea of how horrid they do things in Tevinter to see where your utopia is going to go.

[D.Kain]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

D.Kain wrote...



But why? Think of the posibileties. You would live happy with your mage buddies in a beautiful city filled with magic. You probably wouldn't even have to work, everything could be done with magic. And you could explore the mysteries of the fade, and new unknown secrets. Fall in love with a person that is an equal to you and nobody and nothing will ever stand between you two. Wouldn't it be awesome? I just believe that a mage society would be a lot better that a normal society.

Edit: Oh an the reason is unequal people usually get along bad in society. And mages can't by nature be equal. 

I wouldn't go as far to say it would be that magically utopian or wonderful. But the point wouldn't be to create utopia, but to give mages freedom and self-determination to form a society of their own making. Succeed or fail, its a choice they did not have before.

Of course, it's alot more complicated and complex to execute as a whole solution. But for volunteers, it certainly provides a solution, and could be a viable alternative for a number of mages who really can't fit in, or have no desire to fit in, mundane society.

So do you think that if only a number of mages aka Isolationists asked to be left alone chantry would allow it? I mean they still get their other mages.

Modifié par D.Kain, 31 août 2011 - 04:51 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Do you realize that this solution is also wrongheaded in that it assumes mages think alike because they are mages. If this country were formed, you'd likely have Tevinters and Fereldans forced to live with one another and consider each other one of their countrymen. They might share nothing in common with each other. Their views on magic, family, slavery, government, and ethics might be entirely different, yet because they are mages they are shipped to a land.

[D.Kain]

Saberchic wrote...

D.Kain wrote...
But why? Think of the posibileties. You would live happy with your mage buddies in a beautiful city filled with magic. You probably wouldn't even have to work, everything could be done with magic. And you could explore the mysteries of the fade, and new unknown secrets. Fall in love with a person that is an equal to you and nobody and nothing will ever stand between you two. Wouldn't it be awesome? I just believe that a mage society would be a lot better that a normal society.

There would never be a utopia. Human nature being what it is, you'll find others who will want to dominate and rule. It will be no different than the rest of the world. (The exception is that mgic would most likely be used instead of sword.)

So in your fantasy land, crops, furniture, buildings, etc and all other necessities are done by magic? I hardly think so. And "fall in love with a person that is an equal"????? As if non-mages are less? I'm not going to touch that...

Mage society... all we have to do is talk to Fenris to get an idea of how horrid they do things in Tevinter to see where your utopia is going to go.

Gah stupid human nature!  

Tevinter is not a mage society it is a mage dominated society. Maybe anarchi would work best for the mage society then? No leaders and no above stations for anybody, and anybody that wants to be higher get's put down by the rest of mages? 

Btw I think building things with telekenisis not that hard for a mage. 

[D.Kain]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Do you realize that this solution is also wrongheaded in that it assumes mages think alike because they are mages. If this country were formed, you'd likely have Tevinters and Fereldans forced to live with one another and consider each other one of their countrymen. They might share nothing in common with each other. Their views on magic, family, slavery, government, and ethics might be entirely different, yet because they are mages they are shipped to a land.

Ok yes, I get what you are saying. It would only work with people that think alike. So if the land was made with only Isolationists it would work?

Modifié par D.Kain, 31 août 2011 - 04:57 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

My point still stands, though. Your assumption is that mages will see eye to eye simply because they are mages, and that simply isn't the case. Mages are people forced into a similar situation by accident of birth. That doesn't mean people like Wynne will suddenly get chummy with people like the magisters, nor should they.

The Isolationists are a political party. People are defined by more than that. For example, an American conservative and a British conservative are both conservatives, but still might have different views borne out of their heritage.

And one should look no further than the Dalish for what happens when isolationism happens.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 31 août 2011 - 05:00 .