150 réponses à ce sujet

[D.Kain]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

My point still stands, though. Your assumption is that mages will see eye to eye simply because they are mages, and that simply isn't the case. Mages are people forced into a similar situation by accident of birth. That doesn't mean people like Wynne will suddenly get chummy with people like the magisters, nor should they.

The Isolationists are a political party. People are defined by more than that. For example, an American conservative and a British conservative are both conservatives, but still might have different views borne out of their heritage.

And one should look no further than the Dalish for what happens when isolationism happens.

Damn. I thought about a society that would get better and that would get along in time and through new mage generations, and that they would START to think the same, since they live together and made their own society, but I forgot that new mages will always arrive since, mages are born to non mages too.... 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Saberchic wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

So we need to separate them out because their different?

Not buyin' it. How about when mages are young they are sent to a "boarding school" type institution that can teach them to control their gifts. Then, as they get older, they can go live back at home and still be a part of society, but they would still have to attend classes.

YES mages should be separated from others. It's for their own good. I'm saying this as a mage lover btw, I ALWAYS play mages.

For their own good? I'm not sure how it's for their own good. To me, it sounds like your solution is like one born out of fear from the perspective of someone who is afraid of magic.

You're talking about breaking up families, and that could lead to a lot of resentment. Not to mention being forcibly shipped off somewhere if the mage doesn't want to go. Segregation doesn't work. 

What's to keep those who become resentful about being forced to leave from coming back and getting even by trying to take over?

And living together does not work when a person is a walking nuke with a hair trigger.
People would never accept it. They don't want to endanger THEIR families. My family >>> your needs and wishes

Basicly, your solution can only work in a utopian society. And that one doesn't exist.

[Saberchic]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

So we need to separate them out because their different?

Not buyin' it. How about when mages are young they are sent to a "boarding school" type institution that can teach them to control their gifts. Then, as they get older, they can go live back at home and still be a part of society, but they would still have to attend classes.

YES mages should be separated from others. It's for their own good. I'm saying this as a mage lover btw, I ALWAYS play mages.

For their own good? I'm not sure how it's for their own good. To me, it sounds like your solution is like one born out of fear from the perspective of someone who is afraid of magic.

You're talking about breaking up families, and that could lead to a lot of resentment. Not to mention being forcibly shipped off somewhere if the mage doesn't want to go. Segregation doesn't work. 

What's to keep those who become resentful about being forced to leave from coming back and getting even by trying to take over?

And living together does not work when a person is a walking nuke with a hair trigger.
People would never accept it. They don't want to endanger THEIR families. My family >>> your needs and wishes

Basicly, your solution can only work in a utopian society. And that one doesn't exist.

Never said there wouldn't be problems, but it's a lot more realistic than packing them up and sending them to another land. MY family who have mages >>> your desires. (See how that argument works? It doesn't.)

I think calling mages a "walking nuke" is a bit of an exaggeration. That's part of the fear-mongering that plagues the mage stigma. Yes, magic can be used for ill, but so can swords or the bombs that the dwarves make.

As we've seen, demons can even possess those who are not mage. Isn't that the big fear with mages? That they'll turn into abominations? With my solution, there'd still be precautions like templars around to keep order. If we just send them off, they more than likely would not police themselves like the templars would.

[UltiPup]

This just sounds like it would end up like Tevinter. If a mage goes rogue, you need someone to stop them. A templar is the best person to do that. You can't send them off to Circle Land without any security. No one would ever let an entire land filled with mages on their borders.

[D.Kain]

UltiPup wrote...

This just sounds like it would end up like Tevinter. If a mage goes rogue, you need someone to stop them. A templar is the best person to do that. You can't send them off to Circle Land without any security. No one would ever let an entire land filled with mages on their borders.

You don't need to stop a group of mages that get's along well and doesn't want to hurt anyone. I can easily see a group of mages gathering while at war with the templars to go somewhere far away and make a living there. No stoping them required. I would actually join that group if I was a mage and kill any templar that would get in the way.

[UltiPup]

D.Kain wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

This just sounds like it would end up like Tevinter. If a mage goes rogue, you need someone to stop them. A templar is the best person to do that. You can't send them off to Circle Land without any security. No one would ever let an entire land filled with mages on their borders.

You don't need to stop a group of mages that get's along well and doesn't want to hurt anyone. I can easily see a group of mages gathering while at war with the templars to go somewhere far away and make a living there. No stoping them required. I would actually join that group if I was a mage and kill any templar that would get in the way.

But you are assuming that none of those mages will ever fall. That none of those mages are just blood mages trying to find sancturay. If you were an apostate mage accused of blood magic ( and you did it ), wouldn't you run to that land and claim the templars were keeping you down?

[D.Kain]

UltiPup wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

This just sounds like it would end up like Tevinter. If a mage goes rogue, you need someone to stop them. A templar is the best person to do that. You can't send them off to Circle Land without any security. No one would ever let an entire land filled with mages on their borders.

You don't need to stop a group of mages that get's along well and doesn't want to hurt anyone. I can easily see a group of mages gathering while at war with the templars to go somewhere far away and make a living there. No stoping them required. I would actually join that group if I was a mage and kill any templar that would get in the way.

But you are assuming that none of those mages will ever fall. That none of those mages are just blood mages trying to find sancturay. If you were an apostate mage accused of blood magic ( and you did it ), wouldn't you run to that land and claim the templars were keeping you down?

I don't view blood magic as something bad, so blood mages would be welcome also. Every mage is welcome as long as that mage wants to live in peace. No mage will have a second chance to harbor there just for his crimes, you either stay or never return there. 

( Isolationists are those who wish to separate themselves from the Templars, Chantry and indeed civilization altogether, both in order to practise magic without scrutiny and to ensure their powers to do not negatively affect "ordinary" folk. ) 

This is basically what the land is about, and not getting away from templars everytime you kill/inslave inoccents.

Edit: and if any mage falls, other MAGES deal with it not the templars.

Modifié par D.Kain, 31 août 2011 - 07:28 .

[UltiPup]

I think the issue with mages hunting down rogue mages is that it is possible the rogue's corruption might spread to the other mages. They don't have immunity to their own powers, so it is as dangerous as sending in some random mercenary group. With templars, they make themselves resistant to magic. It is safer for the whole community.

Again, no one is going to allow a land of mages anywhere near their borders. This just makes magic more to fear. One day, some country is going to just take the land away in fear the mages would decide to become like Tevinter. The Chantry would just call an Exalted March and wipe out everyone.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

UltiPup wrote...

I think the issue with mages hunting down rogue mages is that it is possible the rogue's corruption might spread to the other mages. They don't have immunity to their own powers, so it is as dangerous as sending in some random mercenary group. With templars, they make themselves resistant to magic. It is safer for the whole community.

Again, no one is going to allow a land of mages anywhere near their borders. This just makes magic more to fear. One day, some country is going to just take the land away in fear the mages would decide to become like Tevinter. The Chantry would just call an Exalted March and wipe out everyone.

Actually, school of spirit spells are more effective at bootstomping mages than any templar ability. The first two lines in the spirit schools specifically deal with magic user enemies, as well as resisting spells, even neutralizing magic. I mean, the Circle tower quest in Origins went from "great, fireball throwing mages and demons everywhere" to "my mana clash lulz at your blood magic". There's a number of applications of that school that are not shown, that could be further applied to be specific in damage/neutralizing mages.

As far as corruption goes, we see the templars are just as vulnerable to it, and it spreads. The real dangers aren't magic or spells, but the dark corners of the human mind that foster the darker, destructive aspects of the human psyche. Which is as universal to mundanes as it is mages.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

D.Kain wrote...

So do you think that if only a number of mages aka Isolationists asked to be left alone chantry would allow it? I mean they still get their other mages.

Hard to say. There might be members of the Chantry who would be content to ignore them so long as they stay far away and isolated. Yet the more reoligous members of the Chantry would allow this, because the Chant says the Chant of Light must be sung from all corners of the world. In otherwords, it's against Chantry beliefs to allow the existance of a heathen society that is not dedicated to Andrastism and the Chantry, especially if its a society they can prevent forming. It comes down to moderates or extremists within the Chantry, really.

[John Epler]

Quite aside from the Chantry, I doubt any nation in Thedas would look upon a nation composed entirely of mages with anything other than extreme skepticism. Even with the leaders most kindly disposed towards those with magic abilities, there's a lot less concern with an incredibly powerful individual who holds loyalty towards -your- country, as opposed to a group of incredibly powerful individuals who collectively hold loyalty towards a completely different country. 'Imperial ambitions' would be at the forefront of everyone's mind, I imagine.

[The Baconer]

Saberchic wrote...
And "fall in love with a person that is an equal"????? As if non-mages are less? I'm not going to touch that...

Are they not?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

JohnEpler wrote...

Quite aside from the Chantry, I doubt any nation in Thedas would look upon a nation composed entirely of mages with anything other than extreme skepticism. Even with the leaders most kindly disposed towards those with magic abilities, there's a lot less concern with an incredibly powerful individual who holds loyalty towards -your- country, as opposed to a group of incredibly powerful individuals who collectively hold loyalty towards a completely different country. 'Imperial ambitions' would be at the forefront of everyone's mind, I imagine.

Yes, I agree, people wouldn't really be keen on the idea alone.

Which is why I think, if any successful "mage society" were to be able to exist, it would have to be somewhere far away with considerable geographic isolation from Thedas proper. So in effect, it would be similar to say, emigrating to the "new world". Somewhere far off and unknown.

Alot of mages would probably hesitate for such extreme isolation, but as I said before, a number of Isolationist fraternity members, as well as some unrelated individuals, might welcome such an idea. It would be far enough away that both sides would not really have to worry too much about either side.

[blothulfur]

There is only one solution to the mage problem, with the wisdom of the Qun guiding us we shall sever the fade from reality and curtail the parasitic feeding of its demons and devils. And then the cursed mages shall be free and equal under the Qun, and with a great bane lifted from the peoples shoulders they shall stand tall in the enlightenment of truth.

[Revik]

@OP there are a couple details you are leaving out that other people here have alluded to.

Having a separate "land/country" just for mages left to their own devices is not something the world can just ignore. You are forgetting the reason for the blight's very existence which was caused by the tomfoolery of mages which didn't just affect them but all of Thedas. Another detail you are forgetting is that like it not humans are flawed and it is very easy for them to surcomb to temptation. Unfortunately one mages fall could mean the fall for the entire circle (think of Uldred forcing other mages to become abominations). You could suddenly find yourself facing down an entire army of abominations/demons.

A separate country is not a solution but a recipe for doom. Personally I think the way the Qunari handle their saaerbos is probably the best solution of they want them to stay alive. Otherwise truly the only safe way to handle it would be to euthanize them or make them tranquil at first sign. Both brutally harsh but finite solutions.

Modifié par Revik, 31 août 2011 - 05:54 .

[Saberchic]

The Baconer wrote...

Saberchic wrote...
And "fall in love with a person that is an equal"????? As if non-mages are less? I'm not going to touch that...

Are they not?

Nice try, but I will not rise to that bait.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Yes, I agree, people wouldn't really be keen on the idea alone.

Which
is why I think, if any successful "mage society" were to be able to
exist, it would have to be somewhere far away with considerable
geographic isolation from Thedas proper. So in effect, it would be
similar to say, emigrating to the "new world". Somewhere far off and
unknown.

Alot of mages would probably hesitate for such extreme
isolation, but as I said before, a number of Isolationist fraternity
members, as well as some unrelated individuals, might welcome such an
idea. It would be far enough away that both sides would not really have
to worry too much about either side.

I think you're missing the point. I think the main gist of what John was saying is that it's better to have a mage loyal to your (and theirs by birth) homeland than to have them be potentially against you. Plus, what country is going to just sit idly by and let a country be set up next to theirs with all these "undesirables?" That would surely lead to contention between countries.

[Ollys]

Yes, equality between different species is impossible.
Just check see same problem with augumented people in Deus Ex and mutants in X-Man.
If you grant equal rights to mages, it just means you will oppress normal humans, just because evolution is not on they side. In equality weakling have no chances.
Why Detroit workers in Deus Ex riot against augumentation? Because they can't compete with augumented workers. You must augument youself or you will lose your job.

Same in magic world. Normal humans will be people of the second grade. Simple because mages is better then you - they can do what you cant. You are a healer? No is not, some Spirit Healer has opened clinic in the neighbourhood and etc.
Normal humans will take place of poor peasant or the slave, not because of oppression, but because of competition. If you have two applicants for a workplace - useless ghetto-dweller and all-round expert - who will get advantage?
And if humans dont want to take a place of alienage elves they should secure they status and oppress potential threat, Meybe even genocide all mages. Well, for sake of human childrens you know.

Modifié par Ollys, 31 août 2011 - 06:31 .

[Huntress]

UltiPup wrote...

I think the issue with mages hunting down rogue mages is that it is possible the rogue's corruption might spread to the other mages. They don't have immunity to their own powers, so it is as dangerous as sending in some random mercenary group. With templars, they make themselves resistant to magic. It is safer for the whole community.

Again, no one is going to allow a land of mages anywhere near their borders. This just makes magic more to fear. One day, some country is going to just take the land away in fear the mages would decide to become like Tevinter. The Chantry would just call an Exalted March and wipe out everyone.

It might or might not? you are only assuming that this rogue mage will corrupt any other mage and not that it will fail at corrupting  mages. Not all the mages want to be blood mages-demon lovers, some just want to be LEFT ALONE, but that won't happen because of a "might".

Templars are NOT inmune to magic as you might think, they can't do much against blood mages, in fact 99% of them died against blood mages. Blood mages use  their life force to cast spells, templars stop mages that uses arcane magic. Thats why blood magic is prohibit and has nothing to do with becoming a demon, is because NOT ONE is able to stop a blood mage from casting spells.

true that mages will never be able to be free or to choose a life in thedas and leaving is not a choice the chantry want to give to this mages, if it was a choice there wouldn't have being circles for more 900 years now, would it?

If the people are afraid of mages how are they going to take land away from them? it doesn't make much sense, 90% of people fail to confront their fear and the rest? they die in the process.
The Chantry going full war agaisn't mages is not reliable, the moment the jailed mages see the "other side even if is NOT what they want" they'll crush the chantry or try to get away from it.
The chantry will lose the few controlled mages, why? because not one likes to be put on jail cell for the rest of their life just for a "might". Oh and before you come with "The chantry won't use mages".. lol!! who will heal the templars? the priests? lol! No, they'll use mages because  magic heal faster than bandages.

[D.Kain]

Ollys wrote...

Yes, equality between different species is impossible.
Just check see same problem with augumented people in Deus Ex and mutants in X-Man.
If you grant equal rights to mages, it just means you will oppress normal humans, just because evolution is not on they side. In equality weakling have no chances.
Why Detroit workers in Deus Ex riot against augumentation? Because they can't compete with augumented workers. You must augument youself or you will lose your job.

Same in magic world. Normal humans will be people of the second grade. Simple because mages is better then you - they can do what you cant. You are a healer? No is not, some Spirit Healer has opened clinic in the neighbourhood and etc.
Normal humans will take place of poor peasant or the slave, not because of oppression, but because of competition. If you have two applicants for a workplace - useless ghetto-dweller and all-round expert - who will get advantage?
And if humans dont want to take a place of alienage elves they should secure they status and oppress potential threat, Meybe even genocide all mages. Well, for sake of human childrens you know.

Yes this is why I though about mages living seperately from everybody else.

[Saberchic]

D.Kain wrote...

Ollys wrote...
*snipped genocidal advocating*

Yes this is why I though about mages living seperately from everybody else.

I get the impression that Ollys would kill both your and my mages, regardless of where they live.

[D.Kain]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Quite aside from the Chantry, I doubt any nation in Thedas would look upon a nation composed entirely of mages with anything other than extreme skepticism. Even with the leaders most kindly disposed towards those with magic abilities, there's a lot less concern with an incredibly powerful individual who holds loyalty towards -your- country, as opposed to a group of incredibly powerful individuals who collectively hold loyalty towards a completely different country. 'Imperial ambitions' would be at the forefront of everyone's mind, I imagine.

Yes, I agree, people wouldn't really be keen on the idea alone.

Which is why I think, if any successful "mage society" were to be able to exist, it would have to be somewhere far away with considerable geographic isolation from Thedas proper. So in effect, it would be similar to say, emigrating to the "new world". Somewhere far off and unknown.

Alot of mages would probably hesitate for such extreme isolation, but as I said before, a number of Isolationist fraternity members, as well as some unrelated individuals, might welcome such an idea. It would be far enough away that both sides would not really have to worry too much about either side.

So it has to be somewhere really far away then I guess.  Not sure how other mages will find their way there if they wanted to. Not sure if anybody would even know where it is. Maybe send a group of undercover mages once in a couple of years to guide new mages to the land?  Maybe use some magic that would hide them from everybody else. Invisibility/teleport, I think it is pretty easy for mages to just RUN and not fight. Though a trace of blood used by the templars could track them. Maybe some new magic then? Some sort of blood magic, that makes one undetectable for the templars. So much speculation.) 

[D.Kain]

Saberchic wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Ollys wrote...
*snipped genocidal advocating*

Yes this is why I though about mages living seperately from everybody else.

I get the impression that Ollys would kill both your and my mages, regardless of where they live.

Lol, this is when mages get dangerous and fight back. 

[Saberchic]

D.Kain wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Ollys wrote...
*snipped genocidal advocating*

Yes this is why I though about mages living seperately from everybody else.

I get the impression that Ollys would kill both your and my mages, regardless of where they live.

Lol, this is when mages get dangerous and fight back. 

Indeed. If we were actually in DA2 right now, I believe this is the part where you and I turn into blood mages (if we weren't before) and take out everyone else.

[Ollys]

I believe this is the part where you and I turn into blood mages (if we weren't before) and take out everyone else.

Sad, but I with my templar-voodoo can't do much against it.
Also it is the next argument in favor of aggressive anti-mage policy! It is better to operate quickly. The blood mage today or the blood mage tomorrow. Not the big difference.

[D.Kain]

Ollys wrote...

I believe this is the part where you and I turn into blood mages (if we weren't before) and take out everyone else.

Sad, but I with my templar-voodoo can't do much against it.
Also it is the next argument in favor of aggressive anti-mage policy! It is better to operate quickly. The blood mage today or the blood mage tomorrow. Not the big difference.

How about a blood mage far, far away, living happily with other mages and blood mages? You won't even hear about them!