150 réponses à ce sujet

[Saberchic]

Ollys wrote...

I believe this is the part where you and I turn into blood mages (if we weren't before) and take out everyone else.

Sad, but I with my templar-voodoo can't do much against it.
Also it is the next argument in favor of aggressive anti-mage policy! It is better to operate quickly. The blood mage today or the blood mage tomorrow. Not the big difference.

Yes, and that's the reason why your problem of a mage war will exist.

With your intolerance, you have now managed to unite me (anti-blood mage) and D.Kain (pro-blood mage). You have sealed your doom, sir!

[D.Kain]

Saberchic wrote...

Ollys wrote...

I believe this is the part where you and I turn into blood mages (if we weren't before) and take out everyone else.

Sad, but I with my templar-voodoo can't do much against it.
Also it is the next argument in favor of aggressive anti-mage policy! It is better to operate quickly. The blood mage today or the blood mage tomorrow. Not the big difference.

Yes, and that's the reason why your problem of a mage war will exist.

With your intolerance, you have now managed to unite me (anti-blood mage) and D.Kain (pro-blood mage). You have sealed your doom, sir!

[Gnaeus Trebonius]

The only solution to the mage question is that certain one that is final. Sorry.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Saberchic wrote...


I think you're missing the point. I think the main gist of what John was saying is that it's better to have a mage loyal to your (and theirs by birth) homeland than to have them be potentially against you. Plus, what country is going to just sit idly by and let a country be set up next to theirs with all these "undesirables?" That would surely lead to contention between countries.

Which is why I said it would have to be far off and away. geographically isolated. far away beyond the borders of known Thedas. Given that the Qunari come from somewhere else, there are likely to be numerous places and islands currently unknown to modern Theodsians. probably many that are not inhabited by any sentient race.

My point was not necessarily agreeing in full with the OP, but showing that some of his points, in another context, do have potential. As a total solution, I disagree, as there are numerous reasons it would not succeed or even be desirable on such a massive scale. However, the basic concept of an isolated mage society does have merits, and is the principle tenet of the isolationist fraternity.

What I am saying is, that it is likely there will be some mages, not just the Isolationists but other mages unrelated to Circle politics, that will see this as a viable option. It is likely that such groups might even try to buy or hire their own "proverbial mayflower" to take them somewhere distant and unexplored and crash land. or crash into an iceberg, or a coral reef, or whatever. Though it could just as likely crash land on some uninhabited unspoilt tropical eden, where a theoretical colony could be limited to surfing, luaus, picking mangos and coconuts, working on their tans, and breeding.

Regardless of where they end up, if anywhere liveable,  it is likely a number of mages might be willing to take the chances and risks, and start from scratch completely. You might have individual groups setting off in different directions in the hopes of finding somewhere far away to live. These would all be volunteers, people going because they want to, because they believe its the best hope for a better situation.

And while there would be opposition in some quarters, there can just as easily be a number of people who might support, or at least not hinder, such a plan. I'm sure a number of commoners would be happy to see the backsides of a boatload of mages sailing off somewhere far away (or into an iceberg, whichever). And probably a fewr of Chantry personnel/templars who wouldn't bother stopping them, if only it meant that many fewer mages that anyone has to deal with.

It's one possible alternative for some mages, and one that I think some might likely explore.

[D.Kain]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf you explained what I mean very well. It would solve a lot of problems, and leave fewer mages in Thedas, thus fewer problems to deal with. Now we only need to come up with solutions for the remaining mages.

Edit: Btw need to copy ( rewrite ) all the valuable circle books, and take those along. 

Modifié par D.Kain, 31 août 2011 - 10:03 .

[Elywyn]

I believe the wrong which people made at Thedas is They think, magic is curse so mother/father of a child who has "gift" is scaring from his own child. And they're giving their children to Circles. And these children/babies couldnt see their moms who is source of love, good moral for a child. And children who havent learned yet seperation of good and bad from their families could select a wrong path for his own destiny. And dont forget the atmosphere of a circle.
In circle first thing to say a child "You have curse of Maker, you need to control it". Child's personality is ruined by these words. Just think, Father didnt look at you after he discover what you have. Mother feared at you. You just had picken up by a Templar and where you went They say you have a curse. There is only 3 way for you. You'll hate yourself and wish you hadnt get this curse like mage at Circle of Magi at Ferelden Magi origin.-I cant remember her name. Second way, you'll see your talents as a gift and try to change things at Thedas which You arent should be feared of. You can good things with it. Chance of being evil person is equal to a ordinary people's chance -like my character at magi origin-. And third way You'll hate your own mother,father,templar,circle,people. And You'll select the path of Forbidden knowledge and seek more and more power to destroy all of them. And you'll be Vengeance not Justice. And this will be not good. You'll never stop, more and more. Templars will use you as a propaganda item. "You see, mages are evil They must be tranquiled or killed." as a result you'll be slayed by someone. Templars'll use you, people'll fear mages. And babies'll taken away as long as these continued even there was good mages at Thedas.

So, I offer a system School of Magi:
http://social.biowar...1/index/8019494

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

D.Kain wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf you explained what I mean very well. It would solve a lot of problems, and leave fewer mages in Thedas, thus fewer problems to deal with. Now we only need to come up with solutions for the remaining mages.

Edit: Btw need to copy ( rewrite ) all the valuable circle books, and take those along. 

yes, it is an interesting solution, I think, for some individual mages. I don't believe there is a universal solution that would be universally functional. I believe a number of different solutions and outcomes are probably given the different nations and cultures of thedas.

But this particular scenario is very interesting to me, as it does offer something for both sides. A mage the freedom or distance away from suspcious and hateful mundanes, and for the mundanes, a potentially dangerous individual has been removed and isolated from a population that does not want him around. It also leads to interesting possibilities in future lore/developments as well, in expanding the scope of thedas.

As to what sort of society would be formed, it would be dependant upon the individuals forming it. But I do not believe a Tevinter-Style system would be an automatic given, for a number of reasons. It would be interesting to see what sorts of colonies or societies would develop in such isolation, especially as they would have to start everything from scratch. Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say, and it would be interesting to see how different mage groups would adapt to different necessities.

Hell, they might even land somewhere where the ruins and remnants of a long dead, unknown civilization lie. You never know what might happen. hence, my interest in future possibilities on many fronts.

[D.Kain]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf you explained what I mean very well. It would solve a lot of problems, and leave fewer mages in Thedas, thus fewer problems to deal with. Now we only need to come up with solutions for the remaining mages.

Edit: Btw need to copy ( rewrite ) all the valuable circle books, and take those along. 

yes, it is an interesting solution, I think, for some individual mages. I don't believe there is a universal solution that would be universally functional. I believe a number of different solutions and outcomes are probably given the different nations and cultures of thedas.

But this particular scenario is very interesting to me, as it does offer something for both sides. A mage the freedom or distance away from suspcious and hateful mundanes, and for the mundanes, a potentially dangerous individual has been removed and isolated from a population that does not want him around. It also leads to interesting possibilities in future lore/developments as well, in expanding the scope of thedas.

As to what sort of society would be formed, it would be dependant upon the individuals forming it. But I do not believe a Tevinter-Style system would be an automatic given, for a number of reasons. It would be interesting to see what sorts of colonies or societies would develop in such isolation, especially as they would have to start everything from scratch. Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say, and it would be interesting to see how different mage groups would adapt to different necessities.

Hell, they might even land somewhere where the ruins and remnants of a long dead, unknown civilization lie. You never know what might happen. hence, my interest in future possibilities on many fronts.

Tevinter system, wouldn't be possible just because there will be no mundanes to inslave in a complete mage society.
Now a second Veil tear for the knowledge would be possible. Re-entering the Golden/Black city, trying to see what is wrong there, perhaps bringing some more darkspawn, or perhaps trying to actually fix the problem. The contact with the fade creatures could also be bigger. I can see whole groupes of mages entering the fade backing up each  other and trying talking with the spirits and demons. I think it would be a very magic curious nation. Will it make a big disaster, I don't know. I think that's what Isolated mages would really want to do, to embrace their magic and set no limits on the use, just invent new ways to become stronger and protect themselves, defeat spirits and demons. Because if not those that don't want to be mages can always live among normal people anonymious and not cast spells ever again. 

Modifié par D.Kain, 31 août 2011 - 11:06 .

[D.Kain]

@Elywyn don't forget that there are a lot of people like Ollys, that would hate the mages for just being superior. So the conflict will never end. Though your system will make less dangerous mages, the most danger is in their existence.

[Elywyn]

If I must explain shortly: School of Magi is a System which based on not forgetting mages are also persons like every ordinary man.
At School of Magi, You must go to School until you graduated -just like in real world Primary Education-. But Schools will be near to civilizations like Denerim not Lake Calenhad. And going in and out will be free. So a child can go School of Magi with his mother and can go back with his father to home. So Every mage will have a family like Hawke. also every mage will be educated at arts of magic. And they will master themselves at their gifts. So numbers of turning blood-magic will be so low.

At school of magi will be one authority it may be First Enchanter or a Community of Enchanters -like democracy-. And rulers like Kings/Viscount wil oversee Circle. They can do which must be done. You can say, there will be no Templars so Rulers can abuse their powers against Circle but dont forget Mage numbers will not be underastimated. There will be a community of Mages co nnected all over Thedas so They cant act before thinking twice.

So, mothers have their children. Children have their mothers. Mages educated. Number of Blood-Mages dropped to bottom. People don't fear Mages. Mages use their "gifts" for good.

[D.Kain]

Elywyn wrote...

If I must explain shortly: School of Magi is a System which based on not forgetting mages are also persons like every ordinary man.
At School of Magi, You must go to School until you graduated -just like in real world Primary Education-. But Schools will be near to civilizations like Denerim not Lake Calenhad. And going in and out will be free. So a child can go School of Magi with his mother and can go back with his father to home. So Every mage will have a family like Hawke. also every mage will be educated at arts of magic. And they will master themselves at their gifts. So numbers of turning blood-magic will be so low.

At school of magi will be one authority it may be First Enchanter or a Community of Enchanters -like democracy-. And rulers like Kings/Viscount wil oversee Circle. They can do which must be done. You can say, there will be no Templars so Rulers can abuse their powers against Circle but dont forget Mage numbers will not be underastimated. There will be a community of Mages co nnected all over Thedas so They cant act before thinking twice.

So, mothers have their children. Children have their mothers. Mages educated. Number of Blood-Mages dropped to bottom. People don't fear Mages. Mages use their "gifts" for good.

Yes I understand but read Ollys comment on the second page. Mundanes would not want to feel infirior. 

[Elywyn]

D.Kain wrote...

@Elywyn don't forget that there are a lot of people like Ollys, that would hate the mages for just being superior. So the conflict will never end. Though your system will make less dangerous mages, the most danger is in their existence.

So They must be elimaned. -No offence - There will be always another problem. But I think, with this system Mage/Templar conflict can be ended.

hate for mages is another problem. There will be always jealousy for more powerful one. It can be hate for King, hate for your Teacher, your commander, your friend. This isnt problem of Conflict. Jealousy was a problem even at the beginning of time

[D.Kain]

Elywyn wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

@Elywyn don't forget that there are a lot of people like Ollys, that would hate the mages for just being superior. So the conflict will never end. Though your system will make less dangerous mages, the most danger is in their existence.

So They must be elimaned. -No offence - There will be always another problem. But I think, with this system Mage/Templar conflict can be ended.

hate for mages is another problem. There will be always jealousy for more powerful one. It can be hate for King, hate for your Teacher, your commander, your friend. This isnt problem of Conflict. Jealousy was a problem even at the beginning of time

Well yes, but the Jealousy is about mages being BORN gifted, when in our world every person pretty much can achive what he/she wants by effort. There are STILL going to be cases of mages going bad, because there are cases of normal people going bad, even when they were raised in a good family, and that will always be used against all mages, because people are jelous of their power. That's why I said that mages can never truly be equal and live a normal life.

[Tommy6860]

They already had a place, it is called "Kirkwall". Mages, even corrupted Templars, could cast magic, burn the criminal elements in the city to crisps etc,, without so much as getting a reaction from other Templars and the plebians living there. Heck, I could walk around the Gallows, where most Templars are, dressed to the hilt in my mage's robes, with my magic staff draped across my back, without worry to the Templar's reactions.

[D.Kain]

Tommy6860 wrote...

They already had a place, it is called "Kirkwall". Mages, even corrupted Templars, could cast magic, burn the criminal elements in the city to crisps etc,, without so much as getting a reaction from other Templars and the plebians living there. Heck, I could walk around the Gallows, where most Templars are, dressed to the hilt in my mage's robes, with my magic staff draped across my back, without worry to the Templar's reactions.

That was something only Hawke and those that were with Hawke could do.

[Elywyn]

D.Kain wrote...


Yes I understand but read Ollys comment on the second page. Mundanes would not want to feel infirior.

I couldnt see your post when I posted mine. That wasnt my answer just a text which is explainig better the system.

Mages cant do everything. Most mages are master of Primal/elements or creation.
So they can use opportunity of being mage just in Clinics like he told. For example Mages aren't soldiers. So everyman can be a soldier. Mages cant be farmers. Everyman can be a farmer. What can mage do? Creating a fireball or being a butcher. So what can do a mage much more effectively that is already doing by ordinary people. Baker? Butcher? A bodyguard maybe So normal people you say. they have a life which has full of opportunities. A mage has no other option except being a mage. A mage can be a war-mage. But also a normal man can be soldier, templar, commander. A mage can be scholar. So everyman who has knowledge can be scholar. Only A mage can be healer and no other normal man can be like them. But this is like you say "You cant be a artist. You can born as an artist".

So, I couldnt understand what you're saying what mages has. A mage can be deadly at range. But a rogue can easily elimate him, a templar can easily neutralize him.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

It would get invaded. Their children would be enslaved, their women raped, their men killed, and their cities burned. The only viable way for mages to live is to live among others. Being imprisoned in the Circle has already lost its effectiveness and the Imperium offers no solution. Eventually, painful as it might be at first, the normals and the mages are going to have to learn how to live with each other. It might not work, but if they don't try, it will never happen.

Many people have tried to bring an end to the tevinter imperium and its still standing. It has survived countless exhalted marches and the qunari invasions. 

But as someone in another topic pointed out if anyone were to wage a war on this new mage empire it would be the tevinter imperium. Which is okay with me let them kill each other  with their magic.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 31 août 2011 - 11:41 .

[Tommy6860]

D.Kain wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

They already had a place, it is called "Kirkwall". Mages, even corrupted Templars, could cast magic, burn the criminal elements in the city to crisps etc,, without so much as getting a reaction from other Templars and the plebians living there. Heck, I could walk around the Gallows, where most Templars are, dressed to the hilt in my mage's robes, with my magic staff draped across my back, without worry to the Templar's reactions.

That was something only Hawke and those that were with Hawke could do.

You mean, those "other" mages even talking to Templars don't count ? Let's not forget the fact that in every location in Kirkwall proper, I could buy mage's staves and robes from the various vendors, "What!, it isn't contraband either?" .

Something's amiss, or the Templars just DGaF; in either case, t'is not explained.

[D.Kain]

Elywyn wrote...

I couldnt see your post when I posted mine. That wasnt my answer just a text which is explainig better the system.

Mages cant do everything. Most mages are master of Primal/elements or creation.
So they can use opportunity of being mage just in Clinics like he told. For example Mages aren't soldiers. So everyman can be a soldier. Mages cant be farmers. Everyman can be a farmer. What can mage do? Creating a fireball or being a butcher. So what can do a mage much more effectively that is already doing by ordinary people. Baker? Butcher? A bodyguard maybe So normal people you say. they have a life which has full of opportunities. A mage has no other option except being a mage. A mage can be a war-mage. But also a normal man can be soldier, templar, commander. A mage can be scholar. So everyman who has knowledge can be scholar. Only A mage can be healer and no other normal man can be like them. But this is like you say "You cant be a artist. You can born as an artist".

So, I couldnt understand what you're saying what mages has. A mage can be deadly at range. But a rogue can easily elimate him, a templar can easily neutralize him.

Don't confuse gameplay with lore. A mage is a lot stronger than a normal person. No rogue or warrior can stand up to a mage, only templars can, and they are trained to fight against mages for all their life, yet even they fall pretty often in battles with mages. Mages can heal, mages can build using magic to make materials and telekenisis to move those, mages can summon creatures to do things for them. A mage could blast a whole group of soldiers with one fireball and kill them. Mages even make magic shields to defend themselves from swords and arrows, and crush a person with mind. So yes a mage can basically be better anything. Even a baker, for that mage won't need a fire place and can regulate the heat very effectively.

[Gnaeus Trebonius]

Elywyn wrote...


So They must be elimaned. -No offence - There will be always another problem. But I think, with this system Mage/Templar conflict can be ended.

hate for mages is another problem. There will be always jealousy for more powerful one. It can be hate for King, hate for your Teacher, your commander, your friend. This isnt problem of Conflict. Jealousy was a problem even at the beginning of time

One single mage used two easily aquirable components and in a very limited timespan managed to create an insane superweapon. If there was ever a reason to go to war because of potentially threatening WMDs I'd say this is it. Just think what kind of sick, twisted Manhattan-project the mages could be cooking up if they were given free reins and autonomy. The best solution is clearly to keep the mage population low and have it constrained within the Circles until they are needed to fight the Qun. Then, when they have outlived their usefullness, ausrotten is the way to go.

[D.Kain]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

It would get invaded. Their children would be enslaved, their women raped, their men killed, and their cities burned. The only viable way for mages to live is to live among others. Being imprisoned in the Circle has already lost its effectiveness and the Imperium offers no solution. Eventually, painful as it might be at first, the normals and the mages are going to have to learn how to live with each other. It might not work, but if they don't try, it will never happen.

Many people have tried to bring an end to the tevinter imperium and its still standing. It has survived countless exhalted marches and the qunari invasions. 

But as someone in another topic pointed out if anyone were to wage a war on this new mage empire it would be the tevinter imperium. Which is okay with me let them kill each other  with their magic.

Tevinter just wouldn't bother going no one knows where...

[D.Kain]

Tommy6860 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

They already had a place, it is called "Kirkwall". Mages, even corrupted Templars, could cast magic, burn the criminal elements in the city to crisps etc,, without so much as getting a reaction from other Templars and the plebians living there. Heck, I could walk around the Gallows, where most Templars are, dressed to the hilt in my mage's robes, with my magic staff draped across my back, without worry to the Templar's reactions.

That was something only Hawke and those that were with Hawke could do.

You mean, those "other" mages even talking to Templars don't count ? Let's not forget the fact that in every location in Kirkwall proper, I could buy mage's staves and robes from the various vendors, "What!, it isn't contraband either?" .

Something's amiss, or the Templars just DGaF; in either case, t'is not explained.

Those are circle mages. Those mages also have rules, very strict rules. When they didn't obey they were killed.

[Ollys]

So, mothers have their children. Children have their mothers. Mages educated.

And problem is a mage education. From point of view of ordinary humans this is like rising of new ruling class which will rule over you. Sound like act of stupidity - withyour hands you tighten a garotte on the neck.
Only in fairy tales wizards live in far away towers and dont care about world around affairs. In fact they are same humans, but they also are human+, people with unique powers. They are above other people.
Its not only jealousy this visible social diversity. Doctors can't compete with Spirit Healers, smiths can't compete with Enchanters, Charismatic diplomat with ability to blood magic mind control more usefully for the state then just charismatic diplomat without additional powers. Actually this additional powers will be useful everywhere, from politic, to craftsmen and worker, who moving cargoes with telekinesis. There is no place for ordinary human, so, as i say, say hello to alienage ghetto-dwellers, your new neighbors.

So it is better to have your own tranquil slave/sarebaas/etc, than be a slave of this man. Is better to take child from mother for the name of tyranny, than doom your own child to slavery. Eat or be eatten.

[D.Kain]

Gnaeus Trebonius wrote...

Elywyn wrote...


So They must be elimaned. -No offence - There will be always another problem. But I think, with this system Mage/Templar conflict can be ended.

hate for mages is another problem. There will be always jealousy for more powerful one. It can be hate for King, hate for your Teacher, your commander, your friend. This isnt problem of Conflict. Jealousy was a problem even at the beginning of time

One single mage used two easily aquirable components and in a very limited timespan managed to create an insane superweapon. If there was ever a reason to go to war because of potentially threatening WMDs I'd say this is it. Just think what kind of sick, twisted Manhattan-project the mages could be cooking up if they were given free reins and autonomy. The best solution is clearly to keep the mage population low and have it constrained within the Circles until they are needed to fight the Qun. Then, when they have outlived their usefullness, ausrotten is the way to go.

Yes this is the kind of attitude mages should run away from, killing anybody who would dare stand in their way.

[D.Kain]

Ollys wrote...

So, mothers have their children. Children have their mothers. Mages educated.

And problem is a mage education. From point of view of ordinary humans this is like rising of new ruling class which will rule over you. Sound like act of stupidity - withyour hands you tighten a garotte on the neck.
Only in fairy tales wizards live in far away towers and dont care about world around affairs. In fact they are same humans, but they also are human+, people with unique powers. They are above other people.
Its not only jealousy this visible social diversity. Doctors can't compete with Spirit Healers, smiths can't compete with Enchanters, Charismatic diplomat with ability to blood magic mind control more usefully for the state then just charismatic diplomat without additional powers. Actually this additional powers will be useful everywhere, from politic, to craftsmen and worker, who moving cargoes with telekinesis. There is no place for ordinary human, so, as i say, say hello to alienage ghetto-dwellers, your new neighbors.

So it is better to have your own tranquil slave/sarebaas/etc, than be a slave of this man. Is better to take child from mother for the name of tyranny, than doom your own child to slavery. Eat or be eatten.

You still haven't voiced you opinion on isolation. Would you stand in the way of mages that would want to live far far away from you?