150 réponses à ce sujet

[Gnaeus Trebonius]

D.Kain wrote...

Yes this is the kind of attitude mages should run away from, killing anybody who would dare stand in their way.

Yep, that is why the Templars really need to put the screws on them, and quickly so. No time for half-assed compromises.

[Ollys]

D.Kain wrote...

Ollys wrote...

So, mothers have their children. Children have their mothers. Mages educated.

And problem is a mage education. From point of view of ordinary humans this is like rising of new ruling class which will rule over you. Sound like act of stupidity - withyour hands you tighten a garotte on the neck.
Only in fairy tales wizards live in far away towers and dont care about world around affairs. In fact they are same humans, but they also are human+, people with unique powers. They are above other people.
Its not only jealousy this visible social diversity. Doctors can't compete with Spirit Healers, smiths can't compete with Enchanters, Charismatic diplomat with ability to blood magic mind control more usefully for the state then just charismatic diplomat without additional powers. Actually this additional powers will be useful everywhere, from politic, to craftsmen and worker, who moving cargoes with telekinesis. There is no place for ordinary human, so, as i say, say hello to alienage ghetto-dwellers, your new neighbors.

So it is better to have your own tranquil slave/sarebaas/etc, than be a slave of this man. Is better to take child from mother for the name of tyranny, than doom your own child to slavery. Eat or be eatten.

You still haven't voiced you opinion on isolation. Would you stand in the way of mages that would want to live far far away from you?

Problem in that the isolationism doesn't work. The state can't be completely cut off from communications with an external world. Eventually the strong nation will try to extend they culture on neighbors, and weak will be crushed by stronger, for land, for trophies of war, or for eliminating potential threat. Like elven dales was crushed by Teventer and second dales was crushed by Orlais.

And if in very far land mages create successful kingdom what prevents them from returning with army? Like qunari came from far away land? If you can take something - and nobody can stop you - you take it. It not about mages, it is a usual human nature. So even in far away land mages still remain threat for a Thedas and Thedas remain a threat for far away mages.

Modifié par Ollys, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:12 .

[D.Kain]

Ollys wrote...

Problem in that the isolationism doesn't work. The state can't be completely cut off from communications with an external world. Eventually the strong nation will try to extend they culture on neighbors, and weak will be crushed by stronger, for land, for trophies of war, or for eliminating potential threat. Like elven dales was crushed by Teventer and second dales was crushed by Orlais.

And if in very far land mages create successful kingdom what prevents them from returning with army? Like qunari came from far away land? If you can take something - and nobody can stop you - you take it. It not about mages, it is a usual human nature. So even in far away land mages still remain threat for a Thedas and Thedas remain a threat for far away mages.

I think it is possible with magic, with enough research done. Perhaps some kind of magic barrier that seperates the two worlds. Or a complete walk into the fade, making a new land there. In other words making a place that only mages could access and only if they know how to do so. I don't think that mages would want to JUST EXIST they will explore new mysteries and with no magic limits eventually be capable of many greater things and wouldn't want to interfere with such earthly things as riches and land.

Edit: And btw how do today's countries manage to stay in their borders?

Modifié par D.Kain, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:29 .

[Tommy6860]

D.Kain wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

They already had a place, it is called "Kirkwall". Mages, even corrupted Templars, could cast magic, burn the criminal elements in the city to crisps etc,, without so much as getting a reaction from other Templars and the plebians living there. Heck, I could walk around the Gallows, where most Templars are, dressed to the hilt in my mage's robes, with my magic staff draped across my back, without worry to the Templar's reactions.

That was something only Hawke and those that were with Hawke could do.

You mean, those "other" mages even talking to Templars don't count ? Let's not forget the fact that in every location in Kirkwall proper, I could buy mage's staves and robes from the various vendors, "What!, it isn't contraband either?" .

Something's amiss, or the Templars just DGaF; in either case, t'is not explained.

Those are circle mages. Those mages also have rules, very strict rules. When they didn't obey they were killed.

You can make up all kinds of excuses for the holes in the game. But that doesn't explain how one can buy mage's items in and around all of Kirkwall. Not only that, upon my arrival in Kirkwall, the first place I enter, is The Gallows, where a fight ensues when I trying to get into Kirkwall proper. Whether it is me or Bethany being a mage, we kill the enemies using magic, and nothing happens. And let's not forget about the mage Grace, who, even if you help to run
away in the "Act Of Mercy" quest, she is captured and you see her later on chatting it up with Templars in the gallows.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:23 .

[Mike3207]

Wouldn't the Qunari totally stomp all over Thedas if they didn't have any mages?

[D.Kain]

Tommy6860 wrote...


You can make up all kinds of excuses for the holes in the game. But that doesn't explain how one can buy mage's items in and around all of Kirkwall. Not only that, upon my arrival in Kirkwall, the first place I enter, is The Gallows, where a fight ensues when I trying to get into Kirkwall proper. Whether it is me or Bethany being a mage, we kill the enemies using magic, and nothing happens. And let's not forget about the mage Grace, who, even if you help to run
away in the "Act Of Mercy" quest, she is captured and you see her later on chatting it up with Templars in the gallows.

Yes well.. then it's a 

[D.Kain]

Mike Smith wrote...

Wouldn't the Qunari totally stomp all over Thedas if they didn't have any mages?

That's Thedas problems. Mistreated mages shouldn't care. 

Modifié par D.Kain, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:28 .

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Nah, they have tried it before and were pushed back to their islands. And are now stuck in a never ending war with the imperium.

If you read about it when they first appeared the imperium was actually almost entirely conquered until the imperial chantry called an exhalted march as well as the chantry calling their own march on the qunari so their combined marches pretty much pushed the qunari back. But we eventually signed a treaty with them well everyone cept for the imperium which is why they are still fighting them.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:39 .

[Ollys]

But that doesn't explain how one can buy mage's items in and around all of Kirkwall. Not only that, upon my arrival in Kirkwall, the first place I enter, is The Gallows, where a fight ensues when I trying to get into Kirkwall proper. Whether it is me or Bethany being a mage, we kill the enemies using magic, and nothing happens.

Gameplay ≠ Setting. In therms of story mage-Hawk and Bettany probably hiding and not cast fireworks infront of templars.

[Mike3207]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Nah, they have tried it before and were pushed back to their islands. And are now stuck in a never ending war with the imperium.

Weren't the mages the difference the last Qunari war? I imagine things might be different this time around without mages in Thedas.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

No, actually every other nation was the difference. The imperium would have been overrun without the chantry stepping in as well.

Qunai have their own magic as well as explosives and cannons they are more advance then any of the other nations anyways so just having mages would not be an advantage over them.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:33 .

[The Baconer]

Ollys wrote...

Yes, equality between different species is impossible.
Just check see same problem with augumented people in Deus Ex and mutants in X-Man.
If you grant equal rights to mages, it just means you will oppress normal humans, just because evolution is not on they side. In equality weakling have no chances.
Why Detroit workers in Deus Ex riot against augumentation? Because they can't compete with augumented workers. You must augument youself or you will lose your job.

Same in magic world. Normal humans will be people of the second grade. Simple because mages is better then you - they can do what you cant. You are a healer? No is not, some Spirit Healer has opened clinic in the neighbourhood and etc.
Normal humans will take place of poor peasant or the slave, not because of oppression, but because of competition. If you have two applicants for a workplace - useless ghetto-dweller and all-round expert - who will get advantage?
And if humans dont want to take a place of alienage elves they should secure they status and oppress potential threat, Meybe even genocide all mages. Well, for sake of human childrens you know.

That's the point I've been trying to make in these topics (disregarding the last sentence). I point out a simple fact of evolution and people think I'm trolling.

[D.Kain]

The Baconer wrote...

Ollys wrote...

Yes, equality between different species is impossible.
Just check see same problem with augumented people in Deus Ex and mutants in X-Man.
If you grant equal rights to mages, it just means you will oppress normal humans, just because evolution is not on they side. In equality weakling have no chances.
Why Detroit workers in Deus Ex riot against augumentation? Because they can't compete with augumented workers. You must augument youself or you will lose your job.

Same in magic world. Normal humans will be people of the second grade. Simple because mages is better then you - they can do what you cant. You are a healer? No is not, some Spirit Healer has opened clinic in the neighbourhood and etc.
Normal humans will take place of poor peasant or the slave, not because of oppression, but because of competition. If you have two applicants for a workplace - useless ghetto-dweller and all-round expert - who will get advantage?
And if humans dont want to take a place of alienage elves they should secure they status and oppress potential threat, Meybe even genocide all mages. Well, for sake of human childrens you know.

That's the point I've been trying to make in these topics (disregarding the last sentence). I point out a simple fact of evolution and people think I'm trolling.

Nope, no trolling. I based my topic on this thought.

[Elywyn]

I see you're against existince of magic.
I personally believe Magic should only be in use who deserve magic and can use it with responsibility. I prefer Wizard to Sorcerer. But, there is no wizard at Thedas only Mages. So you can decide one mages deserve magic or not at education at School. It's School's job. I dont know what can do to undeserved ones. But I know, a good mage wont do anything which he can do better than normal man. A mage won't try to be a janitor who is controlling all of cleaning with conjuration and etc. A mage cannot enchant an item which isnt made by a smith. And for being smith he should train like everyone. And dont forget blood magic will be forbidden so diplomats are safe. And There arent that much powerfull telekinesis spell to even send something from Denerim to Amarenthine. Mages have very different spells/talent its true. But mages cant use everyone of them for a occupation. Deserved Mages use their gifts for a need not money. In most world selling magic is an abuse, for example.

And used magics, mages can be oversee by Mage Community. So, mages cannot do a job with their gifts to compete with normal man. And there will be no abuses with magic.

Its true mage has some opportunities which not everyman can have. But these are at the base of mage's existence at Thedas. You cant execute them all or take all of them under control by force. You can only treat them like everyone and They will think they re equal with them and Peace can be done.
In encounter mage has + as much as he has -. He good at ranged attacks, control battlefield but also bad at close combat. It is same at every world/games. True, they can summon elementals or etc. But if you wont give him that chance he couldnt summon them. You can wait his weak time ir you can sneak. This is like a mage cannot swing a sword to warrior. And warrior cannot just rush against a mage. There are rules to fight with mages if you dont know that you can die. There are rules to fight with soldier, if you dont know them you can die.

[Ollys]

Mike Smith wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Nah, they have tried it before and were pushed back to their islands. And are now stuck in a never ending war with the imperium.

Weren't the mages the difference the last Qunari war? I imagine things might be different this time around without mages in Thedas.

Free Marches have been released by orlesian chevaliers and exalted marsh army.
And then Orleis has made very clever political move and has made a separate peace with qunari bypassing allies from empirium. And now two potential enemies, mages from Teventer and qunari, fights with each other.

[Gnaeus Trebonius]

Mike Smith wrote...

Wouldn't the Qunari totally stomp all over Thedas if they didn't have any mages?

Which is exactly why the mages' potential must be controled, harnessed and used as weapons by the Templars.

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Nah, they have tried it before and were pushed back to their islands. And are now stuck in a never ending war with the imperium.

If you read about it when they first appeared the imperium was actually almost entirely conquered until the imperial chantry called an exhalted march as well as the chantry calling their own march on the qunari so their combined marches pretty pushed the qunari back. But we eventually signed a treaty with them well everyone cept for the imperium which is why they are still fighting them.

Just look at the Eastern Roman Empire, it only lasted for so long against the eastern hordes. Same thing with Tevinter, eventually they will cave in because it's not like the Qun are suddenly just going to call it a day and peacefully return to whatever backwater they emanated from.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Yep, the two biggest threats to Thedas are stuck fighting each other. Maker save us they ever form an alliance.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:43 .

[D.Kain]

Elywyn wrote...

In encounter mage has + as much as he has -. He good at ranged attacks, control battlefield but also bad at close combat. It is same at every world/games. True, they can summon elementals or etc. But if you wont give him that chance he couldnt summon them. You can wait his weak time ir you can sneak. This is like a mage cannot swing a sword to warrior. And warrior cannot just rush against a mage. There are rules to fight with mages if you dont know that you can die. There are rules to fight with soldier, if you dont know them you can die.

Nope. Mages can kill at any distance and can protect themselves from any attacks. Again, their are just more superior, they are always taken out by numbers. 

[The Baconer]

Elywyn wrote...
Its true mage has some opportunities which not everyman can have. But these are at the base of mage's existence at Thedas. You cant execute them all or take all of them under control by force. You can only treat them like everyone and They will think they re equal with them and Peace can be done.
In encounter mage has + as much as he has -. He good at ranged attacks, control battlefield but also bad at close combat.

You're mixing lore with game balancing fluff again. Don't do that.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Gnaeus Trebonius wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

Wouldn't the Qunari totally stomp all over Thedas if they didn't have any mages?

Which is exactly why the mages' potential must be controled, harnessed and used as weapons by the Templars.

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Nah, they have tried it before and were pushed back to their islands. And are now stuck in a never ending war with the imperium.

If you read about it when they first appeared the imperium was actually almost entirely conquered until the imperial chantry called an exhalted march as well as the chantry calling their own march on the qunari so their combined marches pretty pushed the qunari back. But we eventually signed a treaty with them well everyone cept for the imperium which is why they are still fighting them.

Just look at the Eastern Roman Empire, it only lasted for so long against the eastern hordes. Same thing with Tevinter, eventually they will cave in because it's not like the Qun are suddenly just going to call it a day and peacefully return to whatever backwater they emanated from.

Funny thing is the Imperium is based off the roman empire.

[Ollys]

He good at ranged attacks, control battlefield but also bad at close
combat. It is same at every world/games. True, they can summon
elementals or etc. But if you wont give him that chance he couldnt
summon them. You can wait his weak time ir you can sneak. This is like a
mage cannot swing a sword to warrior. And warrior cannot just rush
against a mage. There are rules to fight with mages if you dont know
that you can die. There are rules to fight with soldier, if you dont
know them you can die.

This is scissor-paper-stone gameplay stuff.
In therms of setting and common logic mage can will be trained in smitting, sword swinging (in fact in Legacy Carver say that is Malcolm Hawke train him with sword, probably papa-Hawke was not a great fighter, but ordinary adult man can teach child to basic protection) and any other bussiness. But ordinary people cant became a mage.
In Circle mages live like in prison. There they can't learn anything from this stuff and in norml army mages will be not a low HP hooded nerds with magic arrows, but trained soldiers. And on freedom they will start to take places of usual people, because the will became usualy people, but usualy people with additional powers and posibilities.

Modifié par Ollys, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:57 .

[Elywyn]

The Baconer wrote...


You're mixing lore with game balancing fluff again. Don't do that.

No, I used paragraph for that. I started with -in encounter-. I apologize for my bad sentences. Sometimes I cant express myself as it should be.


@D.Kain I'm just say, as well as there are rules at online games. There are rules to encounter with mage at Lore. Just like there are rules to encounter a paladin or a tank-warrior or rogue both games and lore. At games there are for Each one of the have + and -.

Modifié par Elywyn, 01 septembre 2011 - 12:57 .

[Gnaeus Trebonius]

Elywyn wrote...

I see you're against existince of magic.

Not necessarily. I'm just looking out for my fellow man.

Elywyn wrote...

I dont know what can do to undeserved ones.

But you will need to have some kind of plan when all the Uldreds show up to grace your Magic School with their presence.

Elywyn wrote...

You cant execute them all or take all of them under control by force.

Oh, but I can most certainly try.

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Funny thing is the Imperium is based off the roman empire.

Exactly. They say that history is the greatest of all teachers.

Modifié par Gnaeus Trebonius, 01 septembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[Elywyn]

Ollys wrote...
because the will became usualy people, but usualy people with additional powers and posibilities.

And what is wrong with that? As long as he proved himself an overseeing by someone some community. There is nothing wrong with that. There is no abuses there is no unfair compete. So, Mages can live ordinary life like anyone.

[The Baconer]

Elywyn wrote...
@D.Kain I'm just say, as well as there are rules at online games. There are rules to encounter with mage at Lore. Just like there are rules to encounter a paladin or a tank-warrior or rogue both games and lore. At games there are for Each one of the have + and -.

Well, that's the thing. You can't just say 'but mages aren't going to be good up close'. Is it true that your average mage is going to be sub-par in melee? Certainly. The vast majority of them have spent their lives in the Circles and never received training for that.

On the flip side, if a mage decided to train themselves in more conventional warfare, there's nothing stopping them. Hell, they have tools at their disposal that they can make them above and beyond any mundane soldier you'd find on a battlefield, barring perhaps Templars. If they're a skilled warrior even without the magic, then they'd still be able to fight Templars evenly.