150 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh I am sure mage schools could also fight amongst each other as well.

For some reason I'm now picturing Morrigan's child as He Who Must Not Be Named.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh I am sure mage schools could also fight amongst each other as well.

For some reason I'm now picturing Morrigan's child as He Who Must Not Be Named.

In my case, he has a muggle father.

This is going to turn well lol

[D.Kain]

Ollys wrote...

Well then here is a question for you. Do you think that if a person can get anything his/her heart desires without oppresing others, they would still opress? I think that in a mage society wealth won't be needed for ones hapiness, because one can stay alive and well just depending on magic. A mage can survive in wilderness, because a mage has those nature claws ( magic ), that people lack and have to build, but there are not enough materials for everybody to have the same quality claws, yet a mage has those by nature. You get what I'm saying? A mage could live happy, without having those problems that regular people have. So basically all a mage society has to do is to deffend against other countries, but doesn't have the NEED to inslave anybody for their hapiness. 
I actually think that what Tevinter does is a bit of a plothole, I don't know WHY would mages need slaves, or wealth, when they have magic.

Because lirium is a rare material. Blood is not. For example, now i enjoy good bacon and I don't worry that some piggy was killed on a slaughterhouse for it. Usually life of slaves appreciated no more then animals. So what for to spend money and to enter commercial relations with greedy dwarves if you you can kill couple of elves and do magic without any lirium potions? More slaves = more magic. Also they can use brute force and conquer Orzammar for lirium mines. No matter - human, mage, elves or some wild barbarians - strong and consolidate state always have a profit.

Well, It's 5 AM here. And I must sleep now. Tomorrow will be a big day.

Bah, almost 7 AM here.

All this time I was thinking on how to make it so that people wouldn't hurt each other with their life, but if life is so ****ty, and everyone always have to hurt others to have a nice life... might as well embrace it. There is no real solution and no compromise will ever work. Now I'm going to unite the mages under Tevinter's baner and inslave everyone. 

Meet you on the battlefield templar! No right side and nothing personal, just a fight for survival and ones better life. Thanks for the enlightment.  

Then once/if we win the magisters can start killing each other to get more slaves and wealth to themselves...

And that's what wardens are trying to protect ha? lol. I don't think I'm ever going to regret making 'evil' choices anymore, it is just nature.

Modifié par D.Kain, 01 septembre 2011 - 03:33 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

For some reason I'm now picturing Morrigan's child as He Who Must Not Be Named.

In my case, he has a muggle father.

This is going to turn well lol

XD

[schalafi]

Yes, DKain, lets ask for a game where everyone hates each other and is alwa;ys trying to kill everyone else. No nice guys, just evil, evil, EVIL!

[Harid]

Until we see regular mages put down a blood mage, instead of watching amateur Blood Mage like Jowan able to fell the bloody first enchanter; Until we see a powerful non blood mage mage that isn't our main character, I don't think you could leave mages alone on their own as one Blood Mage would be enough to take them down and take the place for themselves.

[D.Kain]

schalafi wrote...

Yes, DKain, lets ask for a game where everyone hates each other and is alwa;ys trying to kill everyone else. No nice guys, just evil, evil, EVIL!

But it's already there! Seriously, there is NO solution to this conflict. So there is nothing bad in templars opresing the mages or mages inslaving others, because there is really no other way for them to live. Nice mages will be opressed and not so nice mages will inslave and kill, because they don't want to be opressed. It's a fantasy problem and there is no solution to it.

[schalafi]

D.Kain wrote...

schalafi wrote...

Yes, DKain, lets ask for a game where everyone hates each other and is alwa;ys trying to kill everyone else. No nice guys, just evil, evil, EVIL!

But it's already there! Seriously, there is NO solution to this conflict. So there is nothing bad in templars opresing the mages or mages inslaving others, because there is really no other way for them to live. Nice mages will be opressed and not so nice mages will inslave and kill, because they don't want to be opressed. It's a fantasy problem and there is no solution to it.

Which is why a certain mage took a drastic measure... there was no compromising solution.

Modifié par schalafi, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:09 .

[Harid]

schalafi wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

schalafi wrote...

Yes, DKain, lets ask for a game where everyone hates each other and is alwa;ys trying to kill everyone else. No nice guys, just evil, evil, EVIL!

But it's already there! Seriously, there is NO solution to this conflict. So there is nothing bad in templars opresing the mages or mages inslaving others, because there is really no other way for them to live. Nice mages will be opressed and not so nice mages will inslave and kill, because they don't want to be opressed. It's a fantasy problem and there is no solution to it.

Which is why a certain mage took a drastic measure... there was no compromising solution.

There will be comprimise because Bioware won't create two different universes in which no comprimise occurs.  If you side with mages, the world state will be diametrically opposed to the world state created if you side with Templars.

So acting like there won't be one is intellectually dishonest, what Anders did was pointless anarchy, and he was not the one as a Grey Warden and as an Apostate to spark the fight for mages in the first place.

[Elywyn]

Harid wrote...

So acting like there won't be one is intellectually dishonest, what Anders did was pointless anarchy, and he was not the one as a Grey Warden and as an Apostate to spark the fight for mages in the first place.

Yes, Anders who is at Awakening was much more different. Even like David Gaider shortly says "Time flowed, Everybody changed" that doenst make that much sense

Because in Awakening if you go with Anders to Wynne and persuade her to tell whats going on to Mages in politics She will say one group of mages supports becoming fully independent from Templars. And Anders will instantly disagree with that idea. He will say "Ok I dont like Templars, either. But demanding being.fully independent from Templars will create a chaos all over." That Anders is making a absolute anarchy.

Did Justice changed him like that? Did time changed him? Or was that only David G. ? I'm not sure

[D.Kain]

Harid wrote...

schalafi wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

schalafi wrote...

Yes, DKain, lets ask for a game where everyone hates each other and is alwa;ys trying to kill everyone else. No nice guys, just evil, evil, EVIL!

But it's already there! Seriously, there is NO solution to this conflict. So there is nothing bad in templars opresing the mages or mages inslaving others, because there is really no other way for them to live. Nice mages will be opressed and not so nice mages will inslave and kill, because they don't want to be opressed. It's a fantasy problem and there is no solution to it.

Which is why a certain mage took a drastic measure... there was no compromising solution.

There will be comprimise because Bioware won't create two different universes in which no comprimise occurs.  If you side with mages, the world state will be diametrically opposed to the world state created if you side with Templars.

So acting like there won't be one is intellectually dishonest, what Anders did was pointless anarchy, and he was not the one as a Grey Warden and as an Apostate to spark the fight for mages in the first place.

Anders did everything right. If I was a mage I would fight for my freedom. Everybody else will just have to deal with it.  What bioware is going to do is calm the war and make everything go back to the way it was, and nobody will be happy again, there will just be peace and opportuneties for new revolts and other story stuff.

Modifié par D.Kain, 01 septembre 2011 - 11:07 .

[Elywyn]

D.Kain wrote...

Seriously, there is NO solution to this conflict.

Well, We still have my idea

If I must be more serious. Yes, like you said there is no Perfect solution for this conflict. But, I doubt Is there any Perfect solution for any Conflict. We must seek best-way not Perfect one.

I think, there is one peaceful solution to under-control this conflict. First, both sides must drop their staffs and swords.
If they really want a peaceful solution both of them must give something.
Mages must swear to not use blood magic, punishing the one who uses Forbidden Knowledge and become overseen by a council. In that council/committee will be a speakr of Mage community, a speaker of Templars and speaker of goverment who rules the land. -Yes, I changed my mine about Mages must oversee themselves. Because in that way there will be no compromise with Templars.-

Templars must fall back from circles and they can hunt only mages who wanted from council of the land.

So, templars give their authority on Circles mages give their fully independent idea. And rest of the School of Magi idea can be done.

This isnt perfect but best way. I hope, in DA3 there will be plenty of these ideas and players could select which is most believed in.

Anyway, I'll stand with Mages, no matter what.

[D.Kain]

Elywyn wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Seriously, there is NO solution to this conflict.

Well, We still have my idea

If I must be more serious. Yes, like you said there is no Perfect solution for this conflict. But, I doubt Is there any Perfect solution for any Conflict. We must seek best-way not Perfect one.

I think, there is one peaceful solution to under-control this conflict. First, both sides must drop their staffs and swords.
If they really want a peaceful solution both of them must give something.
Mages must swear to not use blood magic, punishing the one who uses Forbidden Knowledge and become overseen by a council. In that council/committee will be a speakr of Mage community, a speaker of Templars and speaker of goverment who rules the land. -Yes, I changed my mine about Mages must oversee themselves. Because in that way there will be no compromise with Templars.-

Templars must fall back from circles and they can hunt only mages who wanted from council of the land.

So, templars give their authority on Circles mages give their fully independent idea. And rest of the School of Magi idea can be done.

This isnt perfect but best way. I hope, in DA3 there will be plenty of these ideas and players could select which is most believed in.

Anyway, I'll stand with Mages, no matter what.

It would all work just fine if people weren't so jelous or powerhungry, and the problem is not even blood magic. My hero was a blood mage, but he didn't have the desire to inslave anyone. I think that there are just not enough rational people ready to live peacefully on both sides. Hell if people would be more rational, mage circles wouldn't even exist, mages would just live with everybody else and find themselves other mage teachers. And everytime a mage would become an abomination it would be considered an unfortunate accident. Mages are pretty rare, and why people can't just suck it up and deal with their existance I don't know, which causes mages not want to deal with people, or some mages just want to inslave.

Edit: This is what makes me want to be a grey warden. Do something usefull and not be envolved in the conflict.

Modifié par D.Kain, 02 septembre 2011 - 12:07 .

[Elywyn]

There is one reason to The Chantry wants to control circles. Because They fear to become Imperial Chantry. Because of that, they put Templars into Circles and forbid to becoming apostates.So, They're not power-hungry exactly or jealous. Jealous ones is minority for both of group. There may be some Templars who hate mages or jealous but when two side compromised they cant do anything. Even if they would do they will be punished by Chantry immediately. And If you give them a guarantee that promises to not becoming Imperium. They can accept the offer.
There is only one hole in here. It's power-hunger mages who use Forbidden Knowledge. And they can be neutralized with co-operation between Templars and Mages.

And it may be just my too optimistic point of view, anyway.

[Elywyn]

I mean, there will be always someone who objects. But Can War end with this way? Yes, I think we can end the war with this way. You cant make "everyone" happy. But %88,927 of Mages and Chantry can accept this idea.

[Vicious]

the problem is not even blood magic. My hero was a blood mage, but he didn't have the desire to inslave anyone.

Malcolm Hawke was an apostate blood mage. He was also heroic, witty, and kicked demon ass, as well as a good father, and everyone who met him talks about how awesome he was.

So I agree with you. Blood Magic is not evil at all. Power can corrupt, that's all.

[Elywyn]

Vicious wrote...

the problem is not even blood magic. My hero was a blood mage, but he didn't have the desire to inslave anyone.

Malcolm Hawke was an apostate blood mage. He was also heroic, witty, and kicked demon ass, as well as a good father, and everyone who met him talks about how awesome he was.

So I agree with you. Blood Magic is not evil at all. Power can corrupt, that's all.

Blood Magic is Evil when you sacrifice others to cast a spell or pierce yourself with staff .
But in the other hand Yes, blood magic is just a form of magic and a way to cast spells. And the first one according legends.
But practicing in this magic is rare and for learn it you must contact with a demon or when you contact with demon he will give you blood magic maybe more- Because we saw what can happen to a mage if he became blood mage. -The elf in Alienage at quest which Meredith gave you-. Maybe Blood magic can be safe when you learn it safe way and protect yourself from attracted demons by your increased powers. But contacting with a Demon for being one is pretty Evil for me. This is like becoming Warlock with accepting a deal with Demon. But defeatin your demon will not clear you for being evil. It is so dangerous and most of mages cant control it like Malcolm Hawke. That's why Blood Magic must remain Forbidden Knowledge.

[D.Kain]

Elywyn wrote...

Vicious wrote...

the problem is not even blood magic. My hero was a blood mage, but he didn't have the desire to inslave anyone.

Malcolm Hawke was an apostate blood mage. He was also heroic, witty, and kicked demon ass, as well as a good father, and everyone who met him talks about how awesome he was.

So I agree with you. Blood Magic is not evil at all. Power can corrupt, that's all.

Blood Magic is Evil when you sacrifice others to cast a spell or pierce yourself with staff .
But in the other hand Yes, blood magic is just a form of magic and a way to cast spells. And the first one according legends.
But practicing in this magic is rare and for learn it you must contact with a demon or when you contact with demon he will give you blood magic maybe more- Because we saw what can happen to a mage if he became blood mage. -The elf in Alienage at quest which Meredith gave you-. Maybe Blood magic can be safe when you learn it safe way and protect yourself from attracted demons by your increased powers. But contacting with a Demon for being one is pretty Evil for me. This is like becoming Warlock with accepting a deal with Demon. But defeatin your demon will not clear you for being evil. It is so dangerous and most of mages cant control it like Malcolm Hawke. That's why Blood Magic must remain Forbidden Knowledge.

Not always the case. Remember the mage lady that wanted to make another empire? The one that corrupted templars? She also had blue lips or something. So this lady didn't ask for demons help, she enslaved them in the fade TAKING power from them. She was talking about that and she did not become an abomenation. She made no deals with demons. This can be considered evil if you think that demons are living creatures too, and must not be inslaved.  Oh and blood magic makes one free from templars, because it allows one to cast spells without mana, and templars can deplete that mana.

[jbrand2002uk]

i think the blood mage your refering to was called Tahrane or something like that although if i remeber rightly though i could be wrong templars were given some immunity to conventional magic by the daily intake of lyrium

[DKJaigen]

Ollys wrote...

Elywyn wrote...

Ollys wrote...
because the will became usualy people, but usualy people with additional powers and posibilities.

And what is wrong with that? As long as he proved himself an overseeing by someone some community. There is nothing wrong with that. There is no abuses there is no unfair compete. So, Mages can live ordinary life like anyone.

As i cay early - from this point start social divercity, where humans became inferior low-life class. Mage are better then ordinary human, because he is human+. Same human, but with benefits. And it means that ordinary man can't compete to mage as equals, he always will be worse.
So what a reason to give freedom to mages and make new ruling class which will be above you? You don't think, what it is better for humans to oppress them before they have received new political status?

You seem to be forgetting that this happens in modern day as well as the people are divided by their intelligence they possess. Being a highly placed manager i cannot trust many of my underlings to perform the same tasks i do so i can be considerd human +. So why does our system work? the answer is simple: morals and ethics. I rather see my people happy and motivated. to do that i need to invest a large amount of time and resources to do so.

I have no problem if mages rule as long as they have sense of morality.

[Drasynd]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

i think the blood mage your refering to was called Tahrane or something like that although if i remeber rightly though i could be wrong templars were given some immunity to conventional magic by the daily intake of lyrium

Tarohne and the lyrium seems to be used to enslave the templars, Alistair questions if it's even needed to fight mages.

[D.Kain]

DKJaigen wrote...

Ollys wrote...

Elywyn wrote...

Ollys wrote...
because the will became usualy people, but usualy people with additional powers and posibilities.

And what is wrong with that? As long as he proved himself an overseeing by someone some community. There is nothing wrong with that. There is no abuses there is no unfair compete. So, Mages can live ordinary life like anyone.

As i cay early - from this point start social divercity, where humans became inferior low-life class. Mage are better then ordinary human, because he is human+. Same human, but with benefits. And it means that ordinary man can't compete to mage as equals, he always will be worse.
So what a reason to give freedom to mages and make new ruling class which will be above you? You don't think, what it is better for humans to oppress them before they have received new political status?

You seem to be forgetting that this happens in modern day as well as the people are divided by their intelligence they possess. Being a highly placed manager i cannot trust many of my underlings to perform the same tasks i do so i can be considerd human +. So why does our system work? the answer is simple: morals and ethics. I rather see my people happy and motivated. to do that i need to invest a large amount of time and resources to do so.

I have no problem if mages rule as long as they have sense of morality.

This is good. Neither would I. 

[D.Kain]

Drasynd wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

i think the blood mage your refering to was called Tahrane or something like that although if i remeber rightly though i could be wrong templars were given some immunity to conventional magic by the daily intake of lyrium

Tarohne and the lyrium seems to be used to enslave the templars, Alistair questions if it's even needed to fight mages.

I think more than that. Raw lirium idol made Meredith into a super human. I believe templars really do use lyrium for their powers such as holy smite. How else would a human do that?

[Catriana]

As my understanding of it goes, lyrium is supposed to help Templars with their abilities. However, Alistair remains skeptic of this in Origins, beliving that it was the Chantry's way of keeping their Templars in check by keeping them addicted(at least, that's how I remember the conversation). Is it true? Well, it's only his speculation, but he seems to use his Templar abilites in game just fine. As does Hawke if you use the Templar specialization.

Blood magic is not inherently evil. It just seems to me that the more power you wish to use, the larger the life source you'd need to find. In this case, many resort to demons. Avernus had used his fellow Wardens to fuel a good portion of his experiments in the past.

I don't believe you absolutely have to contract with a demon to use blood magic, it's just that the amount of blood(life energy?) you would need to cast more powerful spells is more than what the caster's body could handle. In the Imperium, I think they use their slaves.

As for the Mage/Templar conflict...I could not see a ready solution. This is centuries of the Chantry teaching certain things are absolute in regards to mages. When you involve religion, it's almost impossible to really change a beliver's mindset.

To me, something of an almost equally religious scale would have to happen. The general population believe mages are people to be feared(which they're right, to a degree) and most of those beliefs stem from the Andrastian religion and the Chantry. This is not a conflict that could be resolved with one game realistically, IMO. Perhaps the main war itself could be stopped, but it seems that it would take many years before the rest of the world would be on point with accepting mages.

Modifié par Catriana, 03 septembre 2011 - 03:25 .

[schalafi]

Catriana wrote...

As my understanding of it goes, lyrium is supposed to help Templars with their abilities. However, Alistair remains skeptic of this in Origins, beliving that it was the Chantry's way of keeping their Templars in check by keeping them addicted(at least, that's how I remember the conversation). Is it true? Well, it's only his speculation, but he seems to use his Templar abilites in game just fine. As does Hawke if you use the Templar specialization.

Blood magic is not inherently evil. It just seems to me that the more power you wish to use, the larger the life source you'd need to find. In this case, many resort to demons. Avernus had used his fellow Wardens to fuel a good portion of his experiments in the past.

I don't believe you absolutely have to contract with a demon to use blood magic, it's just that the amount of blood(life energy?) you would need to cast more powerful spells is more than what the caster's body could handle. In the Imperium, I think they use their slaves.

As for the Mage/Templar conflict...I could not see a ready solution. This is centuries of the Chantry teaching certain things are absolute in regards to mages. When you involve religion, it's almost impossible to really change a beliver's mindset.

To me, something of an almost equally religious scale would have to happen. The general population believe mages are people to be feared(which they're right, to a degree) and most of those beliefs stem from the Andrastian religion and the Chantry. This is not a conflict that could be resolved with one game realistically, IMO. Perhaps the main war itself could be stopped, but it seems that it would take many years before the rest of the world would be on point with accepting mages.

Sort of like the fight that so called "people of color" have had to wage throughout history, just to change an unfair and inhuman mind set. The Mage/Templar difference in philosophy,  in my opinion,  just mimics one of many wars for justice still being fought today in our world.