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#51
KLUME777

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CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Changes? Well, for one, have an openly known internal affairs division for templars. The seekers don't do anything. By the time they investigate Meredith's meltdown, she's been dead for three years. DA2 is a case study in what happens when internal affairs does nothing. Make it easier for mages to appeal to law enforcement and to figures of authority without feeling as though they are incriminating themselves, which they can't really do if there is no standard of evidence. On top of that, get mages involved in enforcing the law with respect to mages.

A huge problem with the templars is the inherently tautological nature of their mandate. They are servants of the Chantry, the Chantry represents the Maker on Thedas, and Maker is good, ergo the Templars are good. Whether they rape their subjects, kill indiscriminately, torture people, it is irrelevant because they are good, therefore their actions are good. The more dutiful templars like Greagoir actually do try to be good, but Meredith embodies this phenomenon. And don't try to exclude her. She exists and she was a loon. Therefore, if there are templars, cut them off from the Chantry. Make their actions subject to official review and make seekers a public counterbalance to their power. Also, make Tranquility a more severe action subject to review. The fact that no one really gave a damn as legal mages were being lobotomized left and right is disturbing and indicates that there are not enough safeguards against its abuse.

On top of that, make more actual prisons, in the style of Aeonar, except not in places where the Veil has thinned. When the two most widely applied punishments are essentially capital punishment or a lobotomy, most mages would just go for broke. If killing a templar in self-defence and using blood magic are both punished with becoming Tranquil, why not do both?

Mages by and large live most of their lives in the Circle compounds. For one, most templars are too paranoid to let even the most trustworthy mages out. But it's also because mages have zero secular rights and most templars don't really lift a finger to help mages, only guard them. For example, in the quest with Quentin, one of his victims was a Circle mage, Mharen. How many templars were investigating that disappearance? One, and he was constantly stonewalled by Meredith. Also, mages cannot own land and it's suggested that the lion's share of any money they earn is taken by the Circle and the Chantry. Since the Chantry preaches people to fear magic, separates people from their families at a young age, then strips them of any means to actually live independently, its a small wonder that few ever can.

And I never denied the danger of magic, I only contended that the Chantry's extreme paranoia regarding each individual mage's propensity for it creates many of the problems it seeks to prevent.


Your first paragraph makes sense, and i can agree with that, although often with laws and unions like that, the law is abused, where a good templar is just trying to do his duty but is accused of discrimination and loses his job (which often happens in the real world). I am more leaning towards giving the Templars freedom of reign if a law like that interferes with their duty.

And i also think you exagerate the situation, and underestimate the mages power as well. In the case like Kirkwall, sure, what you said can be applied, but ultimately, the whole thing was just utter garbage writing and i don't even want to discuss DA2 because it was such a peice of crap, being too unrealistic and extreme.

But in DAO's case, the Fereldon circle, First Enchanter Irving holds a high amount of power, and in fact, the Templars are not allowed to take action against a blood mage or even enact a Harrowing without the First Enchanters consent (your point in mages getting involved in the law, they already are). Therefore nothing unethical can happen, and if it does (which would be rare in anyplace other than Kirkwall), it would be illegal, and the First Enchanter would likely find out about it, because he is like a Father figure to the mages. It is his job to make sure everything is going smoothly. Now of course, some illegal incidents would occur, but how is this at all different than any other place on Earth or Thedas? There is no way you can stop that, Seekers or no (since the First Enchanter basically does what you suggested anyway). In Kirkwalls case, this is a plothole because if Merideth was acting out of hand or without Orsino's consent (like making everyone Tranquil), he simply could have sent word to the Grand Cleric Elthina (Massive Plot Hole!!), another First Enchanter in Cumberland, or the White divine in Orlais. So there is no excuse, and DA2's situation is attributed to a plothole.


As for prisons like Aeonar, they are designed too weed out blood mages from innocent mages by purposely being thin on the veil. If your a blood mage, you will get possesed, if not, you will be fine and released because of evident proof that you are not a blood mage. If the prison is not near a tear in the veil, how will you be able to tell the difference between a blood mage and a non blood mage? Both would end up being imprisoned for life, wheres at Aeonar, an innocent would be there for a year at most. And if your circle is normal (aka anywhere but Kirkwall), you would not even be sent there unless the First Enchanter gives consent. And if the First Enchanter gives consent, you probably are a blood mage. So what you said doesn't make any sense

Modifié par KLUME777, 08 septembre 2011 - 09:19 .


#52
esper

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KLUME777 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Changes? Well, for one, have an openly known internal affairs division for templars. The seekers don't do anything. By the time they investigate Meredith's meltdown, she's been dead for three years. DA2 is a case study in what happens when internal affairs does nothing. Make it easier for mages to appeal to law enforcement and to figures of authority without feeling as though they are incriminating themselves, which they can't really do if there is no standard of evidence. On top of that, get mages involved in enforcing the law with respect to mages.

A huge problem with the templars is the inherently tautological nature of their mandate. They are servants of the Chantry, the Chantry represents the Maker on Thedas, and Maker is good, ergo the Templars are good. Whether they rape their subjects, kill indiscriminately, torture people, it is irrelevant because they are good, therefore their actions are good. The more dutiful templars like Greagoir actually do try to be good, but Meredith embodies this phenomenon. And don't try to exclude her. She exists and she was a loon. Therefore, if there are templars, cut them off from the Chantry. Make their actions subject to official review and make seekers a public counterbalance to their power. Also, make Tranquility a more severe action subject to review. The fact that no one really gave a damn as legal mages were being lobotomized left and right is disturbing and indicates that there are not enough safeguards against its abuse.

On top of that, make more actual prisons, in the style of Aeonar, except not in places where the Veil has thinned. When the two most widely applied punishments are essentially capital punishment or a lobotomy, most mages would just go for broke. If killing a templar in self-defence and using blood magic are both punished with becoming Tranquil, why not do both?

Mages by and large live most of their lives in the Circle compounds. For one, most templars are too paranoid to let even the most trustworthy mages out. But it's also because mages have zero secular rights and most templars don't really lift a finger to help mages, only guard them. For example, in the quest with Quentin, one of his victims was a Circle mage, Mharen. How many templars were investigating that disappearance? One, and he was constantly stonewalled by Meredith. Also, mages cannot own land and it's suggested that the lion's share of any money they earn is taken by the Circle and the Chantry. Since the Chantry preaches people to fear magic, separates people from their families at a young age, then strips them of any means to actually live independently, its a small wonder that few ever can.

And I never denied the danger of magic, I only contended that the Chantry's extreme paranoia regarding each individual mage's propensity for it creates many of the problems it seeks to prevent.


Your first paragraph makes sense, and i can agree with that, although often with laws and unions like that, the law is abused, where a good templar is just trying to do his duty but is accused of discrimination and loses his job (which often happens in the real world). I am more leaning towards giving the Templars freedom of reign if a law like that interferes with their duty.

And i also think you exagerate the situation, and underestimate the mages power as well. In the case like Kirkwall, sure, what you said can be applied, but ultimately, the whole thing was just utter garbage writing and i don't even want to discuss DA2 because it was such a peice of crap, being too unrealistic and extreme.

But in DAO's case, the Fereldon circle, First Enchanter Irving holds a high amount of power, and in fact, the Templars are not allowed to take action against a blood mage or even enact a Harrowing without the First Enchanters consent (your point in mages getting involved in the law, they already are). Therefore nothing unethical can happen, and if it does (which would be rare in anyplace other than Kirkwall), it would be illegal, and the First Enchanter would likely find out about it, because he is like a Father figure to the mages. It is his job to make sure everything is going smoothly. Now of course, some illegal incidents would occur, but how is this at all different than any other place on Earth or Thedas? There is no way you can stop that, Seekers or no (since the First Enchanter basically does what you suggested anyway). In Kirkwalls case, this is a plothole because if Merideth was acting out of hand or without Orsino's consent (like making everyone Tranquil), he simply could have sent word to the Grand Cleric Elthina (Massive Plot Hole!!), another First Enchanter in Cumberland, or the White divine in Orlais. So there is no excuse, and DA2's situation is attributed to a plothole.


As for prisons like Aeonar, they are designed too weed out blood mages from innocent mages by purposely being thin on the veil. If your a blood mage, you will get possesed, if not, you will be fine and released because of evident proof that you are not a blood mage. If the prison is not near a tear in the veil, how will you be able to tell the difference between a blood mage and a non blood mage? Both would end up being imprisoned for life, wheres at Aeonar, an innocent would be there for a year at most. And if your circle is normal (aka anywhere but Kirkwall), you would not even be sent there unless the First Enchanter gives consent. And if the First Enchanter gives consent, you probably are a blood mage. So what you said doesn't make any sense


That is like throwing the alleged witch in the water and see if she drowns. If she was innocent she would drown and if she didn't sink she was a witch.
First of: You don't have to be a blood mage to be possessed. Second of you don't automatically get possessed because you are a blood mage and encounter a demon. Third: If the veil is thin it means a higher chance of encountering a demon who is willing to teach the mage blood magic and since the mage is in an even worse prison than before there is a higher chance that the mage wants to learn the more powerfull magic. 
It is an as bad idea as it was to place a circle in Kirkwall which have an thin veil.

#53
KLUME777

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esper wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Changes? Well, for one, have an openly known internal affairs division for templars. The seekers don't do anything. By the time they investigate Meredith's meltdown, she's been dead for three years. DA2 is a case study in what happens when internal affairs does nothing. Make it easier for mages to appeal to law enforcement and to figures of authority without feeling as though they are incriminating themselves, which they can't really do if there is no standard of evidence. On top of that, get mages involved in enforcing the law with respect to mages.

A huge problem with the templars is the inherently tautological nature of their mandate. They are servants of the Chantry, the Chantry represents the Maker on Thedas, and Maker is good, ergo the Templars are good. Whether they rape their subjects, kill indiscriminately, torture people, it is irrelevant because they are good, therefore their actions are good. The more dutiful templars like Greagoir actually do try to be good, but Meredith embodies this phenomenon. And don't try to exclude her. She exists and she was a loon. Therefore, if there are templars, cut them off from the Chantry. Make their actions subject to official review and make seekers a public counterbalance to their power. Also, make Tranquility a more severe action subject to review. The fact that no one really gave a damn as legal mages were being lobotomized left and right is disturbing and indicates that there are not enough safeguards against its abuse.

On top of that, make more actual prisons, in the style of Aeonar, except not in places where the Veil has thinned. When the two most widely applied punishments are essentially capital punishment or a lobotomy, most mages would just go for broke. If killing a templar in self-defence and using blood magic are both punished with becoming Tranquil, why not do both?

Mages by and large live most of their lives in the Circle compounds. For one, most templars are too paranoid to let even the most trustworthy mages out. But it's also because mages have zero secular rights and most templars don't really lift a finger to help mages, only guard them. For example, in the quest with Quentin, one of his victims was a Circle mage, Mharen. How many templars were investigating that disappearance? One, and he was constantly stonewalled by Meredith. Also, mages cannot own land and it's suggested that the lion's share of any money they earn is taken by the Circle and the Chantry. Since the Chantry preaches people to fear magic, separates people from their families at a young age, then strips them of any means to actually live independently, its a small wonder that few ever can.

And I never denied the danger of magic, I only contended that the Chantry's extreme paranoia regarding each individual mage's propensity for it creates many of the problems it seeks to prevent.


Your first paragraph makes sense, and i can agree with that, although often with laws and unions like that, the law is abused, where a good templar is just trying to do his duty but is accused of discrimination and loses his job (which often happens in the real world). I am more leaning towards giving the Templars freedom of reign if a law like that interferes with their duty.

And i also think you exagerate the situation, and underestimate the mages power as well. In the case like Kirkwall, sure, what you said can be applied, but ultimately, the whole thing was just utter garbage writing and i don't even want to discuss DA2 because it was such a peice of crap, being too unrealistic and extreme.

But in DAO's case, the Fereldon circle, First Enchanter Irving holds a high amount of power, and in fact, the Templars are not allowed to take action against a blood mage or even enact a Harrowing without the First Enchanters consent (your point in mages getting involved in the law, they already are). Therefore nothing unethical can happen, and if it does (which would be rare in anyplace other than Kirkwall), it would be illegal, and the First Enchanter would likely find out about it, because he is like a Father figure to the mages. It is his job to make sure everything is going smoothly. Now of course, some illegal incidents would occur, but how is this at all different than any other place on Earth or Thedas? There is no way you can stop that, Seekers or no (since the First Enchanter basically does what you suggested anyway). In Kirkwalls case, this is a plothole because if Merideth was acting out of hand or without Orsino's consent (like making everyone Tranquil), he simply could have sent word to the Grand Cleric Elthina (Massive Plot Hole!!), another First Enchanter in Cumberland, or the White divine in Orlais. So there is no excuse, and DA2's situation is attributed to a plothole.


As for prisons like Aeonar, they are designed too weed out blood mages from innocent mages by purposely being thin on the veil. If your a blood mage, you will get possesed, if not, you will be fine and released because of evident proof that you are not a blood mage. If the prison is not near a tear in the veil, how will you be able to tell the difference between a blood mage and a non blood mage? Both would end up being imprisoned for life, wheres at Aeonar, an innocent would be there for a year at most. And if your circle is normal (aka anywhere but Kirkwall), you would not even be sent there unless the First Enchanter gives consent. And if the First Enchanter gives consent, you probably are a blood mage. So what you said doesn't make any sense


That is like throwing the alleged witch in the water and see if she drowns. If she was innocent she would drown and if she didn't sink she was a witch.
First of: You don't have to be a blood mage to be possessed. Second of you don't automatically get possessed because you are a blood mage and encounter a demon. Third: If the veil is thin it means a higher chance of encountering a demon who is willing to teach the mage blood magic and since the mage is in an even worse prison than before there is a higher chance that the mage wants to learn the more powerfull magic. 
It is an as bad idea as it was to place a circle in Kirkwall which have an thin veil.


First, if they don't have any way to tell, both innocent and guilty mages would rot in prison they're whole lives because no one is going to be trusting when its possible and probable the mage is a bloodmage.

Also, ones that have already done dealings with demons have a much greater chance of succumbing to the demons. An innocent would know that if he succumbs, he would be killed instantly by the Templars (ima assuming they have somesort of easy kill switch, as they havn't had any problems dealing with abominations in the prison before), and would therefore control his mind, wheras a blood mage wouldn't be able to.

And most people that are sent to Aeonar (this is Fereldon, not Krazy Kirkwall) are probably guilty anyway since the First Enchanter gives consent for action on a mage, and it is a prison. Usually prisoners are guilty, and the only difference with this prison is that it has the added bonus of weeding out the guilty from the innocent.

#54
esper

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KLUME777 wrote...

esper wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Changes? Well, for one, have an openly known internal affairs division for templars. The seekers don't do anything. By the time they investigate Meredith's meltdown, she's been dead for three years. DA2 is a case study in what happens when internal affairs does nothing. Make it easier for mages to appeal to law enforcement and to figures of authority without feeling as though they are incriminating themselves, which they can't really do if there is no standard of evidence. On top of that, get mages involved in enforcing the law with respect to mages.

A huge problem with the templars is the inherently tautological nature of their mandate. They are servants of the Chantry, the Chantry represents the Maker on Thedas, and Maker is good, ergo the Templars are good. Whether they rape their subjects, kill indiscriminately, torture people, it is irrelevant because they are good, therefore their actions are good. The more dutiful templars like Greagoir actually do try to be good, but Meredith embodies this phenomenon. And don't try to exclude her. She exists and she was a loon. Therefore, if there are templars, cut them off from the Chantry. Make their actions subject to official review and make seekers a public counterbalance to their power. Also, make Tranquility a more severe action subject to review. The fact that no one really gave a damn as legal mages were being lobotomized left and right is disturbing and indicates that there are not enough safeguards against its abuse.

On top of that, make more actual prisons, in the style of Aeonar, except not in places where the Veil has thinned. When the two most widely applied punishments are essentially capital punishment or a lobotomy, most mages would just go for broke. If killing a templar in self-defence and using blood magic are both punished with becoming Tranquil, why not do both?

Mages by and large live most of their lives in the Circle compounds. For one, most templars are too paranoid to let even the most trustworthy mages out. But it's also because mages have zero secular rights and most templars don't really lift a finger to help mages, only guard them. For example, in the quest with Quentin, one of his victims was a Circle mage, Mharen. How many templars were investigating that disappearance? One, and he was constantly stonewalled by Meredith. Also, mages cannot own land and it's suggested that the lion's share of any money they earn is taken by the Circle and the Chantry. Since the Chantry preaches people to fear magic, separates people from their families at a young age, then strips them of any means to actually live independently, its a small wonder that few ever can.

And I never denied the danger of magic, I only contended that the Chantry's extreme paranoia regarding each individual mage's propensity for it creates many of the problems it seeks to prevent.


Your first paragraph makes sense, and i can agree with that, although often with laws and unions like that, the law is abused, where a good templar is just trying to do his duty but is accused of discrimination and loses his job (which often happens in the real world). I am more leaning towards giving the Templars freedom of reign if a law like that interferes with their duty.

And i also think you exagerate the situation, and underestimate the mages power as well. In the case like Kirkwall, sure, what you said can be applied, but ultimately, the whole thing was just utter garbage writing and i don't even want to discuss DA2 because it was such a peice of crap, being too unrealistic and extreme.

But in DAO's case, the Fereldon circle, First Enchanter Irving holds a high amount of power, and in fact, the Templars are not allowed to take action against a blood mage or even enact a Harrowing without the First Enchanters consent (your point in mages getting involved in the law, they already are). Therefore nothing unethical can happen, and if it does (which would be rare in anyplace other than Kirkwall), it would be illegal, and the First Enchanter would likely find out about it, because he is like a Father figure to the mages. It is his job to make sure everything is going smoothly. Now of course, some illegal incidents would occur, but how is this at all different than any other place on Earth or Thedas? There is no way you can stop that, Seekers or no (since the First Enchanter basically does what you suggested anyway). In Kirkwalls case, this is a plothole because if Merideth was acting out of hand or without Orsino's consent (like making everyone Tranquil), he simply could have sent word to the Grand Cleric Elthina (Massive Plot Hole!!), another First Enchanter in Cumberland, or the White divine in Orlais. So there is no excuse, and DA2's situation is attributed to a plothole.


As for prisons like Aeonar, they are designed too weed out blood mages from innocent mages by purposely being thin on the veil. If your a blood mage, you will get possesed, if not, you will be fine and released because of evident proof that you are not a blood mage. If the prison is not near a tear in the veil, how will you be able to tell the difference between a blood mage and a non blood mage? Both would end up being imprisoned for life, wheres at Aeonar, an innocent would be there for a year at most. And if your circle is normal (aka anywhere but Kirkwall), you would not even be sent there unless the First Enchanter gives consent. And if the First Enchanter gives consent, you probably are a blood mage. So what you said doesn't make any sense


That is like throwing the alleged witch in the water and see if she drowns. If she was innocent she would drown and if she didn't sink she was a witch.
First of: You don't have to be a blood mage to be possessed. Second of you don't automatically get possessed because you are a blood mage and encounter a demon. Third: If the veil is thin it means a higher chance of encountering a demon who is willing to teach the mage blood magic and since the mage is in an even worse prison than before there is a higher chance that the mage wants to learn the more powerfull magic. 
It is an as bad idea as it was to place a circle in Kirkwall which have an thin veil.


First, if they don't have any way to tell, both innocent and guilty mages would rot in prison they're whole lives because no one is going to be trusting when its possible and probable the mage is a bloodmage.

Also, ones that have already done dealings with demons have a much greater chance of succumbing to the demons. An innocent would know that if he succumbs, he would be killed instantly by the Templars (ima assuming they have somesort of easy kill switch, as they havn't had any problems dealing with abominations in the prison before), and would therefore control his mind, wheras a blood mage wouldn't be able to.

And most people that are sent to Aeonar (this is Fereldon, not Krazy Kirkwall) are probably guilty anyway since the First Enchanter gives consent for action on a mage, and it is a prison. Usually prisoners are guilty, and the only difference with this prison is that it has the added bonus of weeding out the guilty from the innocent.


I am pretty sure that Aeonar is a one way ticket to prison - a worse prison anyway. Lilly was sent there and she wasn't even a mage so it is not a test if they are blood mage center. As I understood it was simply a place to sent mages who had been harrowed and thus couldn't legally be tranquilized. Like a isolation cell of the 'bad' prisoners.

#55
TobiTobsen

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Actually Aeonar just sounded like a tribute to the Harry Potter series and Azkaban, imo. Especially with the whole "mentioned once and never again" buiness, even when the whole plot of DA2 would be a great point to pick up stuff like that again.

#56
eroeru

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I hope that the main parties get a better images. It's too stereotypical now. The mages are characterized as being stupid blood mages who attack anyone on sight. The chantry looks like it has a passive role in which nothing really happens. The templars are the most interesting ones, because there is opposition there. However, because of the bad image of the mages it looks that this opposition has no use at all. The Grey Wardens probably find some underground horror to deal with. The qunari are brainless savages that conquer everything in their path. The elves are the poor bastards that nobody wants. The dwarfs keep doing their thing isolated from the rest.

I think that to make these parties interesting again there has to be a story which goes beyond that. Throw in quests with actions and/or decisions which change the political landscape. A good example would be to have Sebestian serve the chantry or to be crowned. Follow up on it. Make it real quests. Not just hollow talks. Make it have meaningful impact in other parts of the story.

Interesting ideas for mages: Portray them as smart. Make them have power or make the chantry want to maintain the status quo. Allow the PC to play an active role in that. Make blood mages smart. Make them infiltrate powerful positions. Allow the player to actively support either side of the mages or just betray them all. Do the same for the factions within the templars. Make that stuff mutually exclusive to make replayability meaningful. If the player is considered a renegade to one of the parties then treat him that way in the game. Make it have consequences.


Yeah, I'd like to see characters with an intellectual/intelligent side to them too. Thet they'd not be over-simplified. It would add some believability to the game for yours truly.