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[Sons of Horus]

Do you think it's just skirmishes or raids, or guerrilla warfare or even just a bunch of mages turning into harvesters and butchering everything in sight ? How do you think this mage/templar war should be fought? And how would you end it?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

It looks like chaos that will likely escalate due to extremists on both sides one-uping each other in terms of ruthless and undirected violence. And I don't even realistically see any signifgant "side" for either. Both sides seem to be fractured and filled with opposing or different factions and ideologies, as well as signifgant weaknesses that hinder any advantages.

So neither side will win or lose, really.

[krinst]

I'm still waiting for the army of Morrigans!

But I can see it going many ways. Perhaps in areas where Templar control is tighter to begin with the initial skirmishes would be much more guerrilla-oriented vs a place where mages enjoy greater freedom to organize and exchange ideas that might lend itself to open warfare.

Then again, it is arguable that looser control will tend to leave mages more satisfied overall and less likely to revolt in the first place. There are so many cultures and circles/chantries we haven't seen that it's hard to say.

[Melca36]

Its not going to be mage VS templar.

There will citizens who side with the mages and those who side with templars.

We must also remember that the Chantry will be losing the templars as well. Some will go after mages while some won't.

There will likely be mages fighting blood mages as well

[dragonflight288]

I suspect in the beginning it would be more along the lines of guerilla warfare for the mages.

The templars have multiple advantages over the mages after all.

1. superior training in combat situations.
2. The ability to smite and negate magic
3. Numbers
4. 1000 years of brainwashing via Chantry teachings.


But the mages have their own advantages.

1. Incredible destructive power via Elemental and Entropy magic.
2. Spot healing on the field through Creation
3. blood magic (for those who actually will use it)

Yes, the templars have more advantages, but they have a good number of disadvantages as well.

1. Lyrium addiction. Without it, they go insane or die.
2. Time. They only have a limited amount of time before the lyrium addiction catches up to them. Once that time limit is up, (because they left the Chantry) they have no source of it.
3. No resources. Part of being a templar means they have to give up ties to inheriting land and wealth. Without those, buying lyrium is kind of problematic, even from smugglers.
4. Long-term, numbers; An army marches on its stomach. Add in upkeep for their weapons and arms, buying lyrium, I just can't see the templar army maintaining order after so long. People will be breaking ranks, insubordination, templars will be hoarding what lyrium they have. There will be hundreds, maybe thousands of templars raping, pillaging and plundering their way across Thedas because they won't have any other way of getting lyrium and supplies.
5. Religious fervor. While this recruitment method may have worked for the Chantry over 1000 years in order to keep them from questioning their orders, it also means that, because they are holy warriors of the maker and do his will, they will not have any problems killing peasants who help out mage friends and relatives. They will not have any problems looting because their cause is righteous.

Taking all these disadvantages into my mind, I see only one actual solution. The longer the war goes, the less righteous the templars will appear to the common man. They will be seen as brutish thugs and criminals. And will swiftly lose popular support.

The disadvantages for the mages however are these.

1. Blood magic. It is one of their greatest weapons for fighting templars, but so long as mages use it to control minds, they are justifying what the templars teach against magic.
2. Superstition. Most people across Thedas have been brainwashed by both the Chantry and by Tevinter history to regard all magic as a curse. It will take dedication from many mages to prove they aren't what people have been taught to expect mages to be.

Along the same lines, I'm reminded of Ser Perth, who would rather have useless trinkets with the Chantry's symbol on it rather than actual magical artifacts in Origins, simply because its magic.

3. Abominations. This is likely the biggest concern and disadvantage. Mages will become abominations. No getting away from it. Whether from weak wills (from abuse or simply no self-esteem) or being overtaken by demons in the fade, it's going to happen.

I honestly don't think it's as big a threat as the templars and chantry teach, but I also believe it's a bigger threat than some of the most ardent mage supporters say it is.

As a result of these disadvantages

4. Tevinter's reputation. A country ruled by mages, that had enslaved almost all of Thedas for who knows how long, is always going to hang over any mage seeking natural rights everyone else has. The superstitious farmer will always wonder if the mage is somehow responsible for a bad crop. The nobles will always fear the mage using blood magic to gain a political foothold. Rulers will fear the uprising is just an excuse to take power. Tevinter pretty much made it on people's minds at all times.

As a result of these disadvantages, I see mages having to work for generations to prove they aren't what people portray them as. And they will always have to deal with the nuts and bad eggs that want to be what they are portrayed as. They have centuries of religious dogma and historical precedents working against them. But what they do have is time. Time the templars don't have.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

@dragonflight: Yeah, you basically summoned up many of problems of logistics I see for the templars, as well as some for the mages. And the public perception problems likely to occur for both. Some mages likely to alienate people by using blood magic or demons, or being uncontrollably destructive or violent. Just as likely, templars, either high on religous fevor or lyrium withdrawls, likely to resort to excessive and unprokoked attacks on non-mages, or other extreme measures that will likely make some people see them in a very negative light.

Hence, why I believe the sides are pretty evenly stacked. The logistics is going to be crucial, since both sides now generally being rogue or heavily fractured/divided, it's going to come down to support from allies, since neither side alone posseses the necessary resources to fund themselves. And both sides have equal potential to alienate as well as embrace allies of all sorts.

[Torax]

I think if it were even numbers the mages would have the advantage by far. More would likely side with the Templars and bolster their numbers though. Mages will likely fragment since they were before it. Though many of the non circle mages will probably battle the Circle supporters on top of the Templars. Assuming that many of the Templars side with the idea of what a Circle is? You can expect some Mages and Templars working against both the extremist Templars and Mages. That is why a full on great War would only exist if nations were pushing for a Chantry like movement. Otherwise it will be like one strong force of moderates against extremist wings that would likely have less numbers of support in the recruiting department compared to a moderate response. Call it status quo but in the end it's the middle ground which tends to be supported the most in the end.

[Sepewrath]

I don't think it will fit any of those perceptions, I think that conflict would have just been a catalyst to a different, greater conflict. I don't there is a Mage/Templar war, there is just a World War with everyone being dragged into it. The collapse of the Chantry, probably the most powerful political institution in Thedas, would cause one hell of a ripple effect.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I expect there to be a world war that is spawned from this but will soon become about far more than just rebel mages vs rebel templars. Orlais may try to retake Ferelden, the Qunari may attack the Free Marches, the darkspawn may attack again.

[Augustei]

Sons of Horus wrote...


Do you think it's just skirmishes or raids, or guerrilla warfare or even just a bunch of mages turning into harvesters and butchering everything in sight ? How do you think this mage/templar war should be fought? And how would you end it?

Like Kirkwall did at the end of act 3, fires and rubble everywhere while the templars and mages run through the streets of cities trying to kill each other / survive. Perhaps a few abominations for those mages that are pushed into a corner and about to die.. The forces of the Kingdoms and cities yelling at the templars to stand down and perhaps attacking them when they dont co-operate, Some perhaps helping out the templars. The Templars are more like the Inquisition they used to be now.. So imagine a group of defeated mages on their knees begging for their lives and being given the sword / death. (That actually describes a picture for I think it might have been the seekers or the inqusition I cant quite remember.. remember reading that somewhere though)

[Augustei]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Yes, the templars have more advantages, but they have a good number of disadvantages as well.

1. Lyrium addiction. Without it, they go insane or die.

Something tells me the Templars are covered for lyrium currently.. In DAO in howes dungeon we encounter that templar who is suffering from Lyrium withdrawl and he is quite insane and hallucinating and yeah suffering the effects of withdrawl. He was captured probably around the time of the battle of ostagar.. maybe a bit before, By the time we get to howes estate it has been at max about a year since the battle of ostagar within the timeline.

When Cassandra speaks of the mage / templar war in DA2 3 years after it has begun and the mages rebelled she doesn't say anything that seems to suggest the templars are out of the game yet.. They would loose quite suddenly once their ranks start going into lyrium withdrawl so they must have that problem covered for now.

So it might be safe to assume the mages failed to destroy the templars lyrium supply within the towers or the templars have got the lyrium smugglers getting them their needed lyrium supplies

[Gervaise]

Much depends on whether the people on both sides act intelligently or just insane nut cases like the extremists in DA2. So wise Templars will not alienate the common folk but promote their agenda of protecting them from mages - ask for donations, food, shelter - and will get it because the majority of the population will fear what mages can do. If Templars attack the relatives of mages, most of the population will like as not lend a hand. Likewise, wise mages will do what they can to win popular support - healing the sick, driving off threats to villages, etc. The perception of the Templars had been damaged in Kirkwall because of the heavy handed tactics they employed. However, the balance may have shifted back somewhat after the removal of Meredith because the most recent and lasting memory for the general populace would have been the sight of abominations, demons and undead roaming their streets, plus the general destruction wrought by the bomb. After all, if the Champion supports the Templars, they are begged to take control of the City by the inhabitants. No corresponding move if they support the mages, even though they previously had the support of nobles in the city for that agenda. The bomb may have been a significant symbol to mages but as yet there is no evidence it did anything to damage the faith that the majority of the populace have in the Chantry - if anything, with the right propaganda by the Chantry, it would have strengthened it.

[alex90c]

I can't imagine there really being any prolonged organised resistance. The two main groups, templars and mages will just fracture in to smaller and smaller groups until there's a patchwork of different factions who due to the incompatibilities of their beliefs will end up even fighting among each other or creating alliances with perhaps a templar and mage group having similar views on a key issue.

Then after an unspecified period of time, the more militant factions who are able to win public support for their causes will end up destroying or integrating weaker groups in to their ranks and hierarchy which will soon end up in perhaps maybe 4-6 major players all with vast holdings throughout Thedas (and not necessarily contiguous holdings either) which having consolidated themselves will now rather than resorting to physical action will attempt through more dubious methods to undermine their adversaries in order to sow chaos in their ranks, cause desertions and defections and things of the like, hoping to perhaps break their power from the inside rather than through direct engagement, but none of this will be overly conclusive.

It'll be at this point in the timeline (that all perhaps being more background stuff, though representation of it in-game would be a great plus) that the protagonist will come in to play; with a Qunari threat looming on the horizon they are going to need to unify the mages and templars against this force, with a key feature of this Exalted March being that mages and templars would be working entirely as equals, and similar to the effect women working in factories had during World War 2, post-Exalted March there will end up being a large cry for some level of concessions to be granted to mages if things settle down, perhaps with self-governing mage circles where mage children if willing to opt will be given an education in the use of their magic, minus the way things were before where they would be shut out from the outside world; once they hit adulthood they can choose to stay on if they want and learn more advanced magics or they can leave and just live a normal life, moderately safe now due to the fact that they have received training which should help them resisting possession and things like that.

[Gervaise]

I think the only thing that mitigates the last part of your assessment is that such a threat from Qunari existed in the past and it was the actions of the Circle of Magi that enabled the armies to prevail against them because their magic was superior to that of the Qunari. Yet apparently no further concessions were granted to the mages as a result of their significant assistance - were mages generally any happier with their lot then as opposed to now - outside of Kirkwall that is?

[esper]

I don't think they were, but the mages were a part of the chantry. Basically the chantry could just order them to attack and the mages couldn't say no. Perhaps very few individuals even earned some kind of wynne status.

[alex90c]

Gervaise wrote...

I think the only thing that mitigates the last part of your assessment is that such a threat from Qunari existed in the past and it was the actions of the Circle of Magi that enabled the armies to prevail against them because their magic was superior to that of the Qunari. Yet apparently no further concessions were granted to the mages as a result of their significant assistance - were mages generally any happier with their lot then as opposed to now - outside of Kirkwall that is?

Well the way I see it, the mage freedom movement rapidly gained momentum, plus in the situation I referred to if Templars and Mages teamed up to fight the Qunari, in the aftermath of this conflict I don't think any of the governments in Thedas would be in any place to question the requests of the two most powerful military forces remaining on the continent so they'd pretty much be required to make concessions; perhaps however if the protagonist backed the Templars then they would still have to make some more limited concessions (since they would be in no place to impose Circles after all the chaos) but perhaps limited enough so that in time the Templars may be able to reassume their hegemony over the mages so that maybe even the world gradually reverts to a pre-rebellion state.

Or... or ...

In the aftermath of the war with Qunari, vast quantities of their technology were captured (gunpowder) and people soon learned how to use this for weaponry like artillery and firearms so that non-mages finally had an effective counter to mages which meant that they no longer had to be locked up in Circles all the time since they could just be shot from a distance if they cause serious trouble (e.g. becoming an abomination).

[GavrielKay]

I think how much of a war it is will depend partly on whether the mages were/are able to destroy their phylacteries. So long as the Templars can hunt them down with those, it'll be difficult for the mages. However, I would think a fair number of mages who know or hope that their phylacteries are destroyed might just try to fade into the background.

If they want freedom, and have it, there's no need to fight.

[LobselVith8]

Sons of Horus wrote...


Do you think it's just skirmishes or raids, or guerrilla warfare or even just a bunch of mages turning into harvesters and butchering everything in sight ? How do you think this mage/templar war should be fought? And how would you end it?

I think the mages can be successful with the right leadership. I don't see why they would have to act like blundering idiots like they did in Kirkwall - the Band of Three codex entries focused on Kirkwall and the surrounding area. I would like to think the leadership for the mages would try to maintain their sovereignty.

[blothulfur]

As I remember mages (especially in Ferelden after the debacle in the tower) are not very populous and are very sheltered from the outside world. It's possible that many circles may not hear of any occurence in Kirkwall until the Templars have been thoroughly briefed and prepared by messengers of the chantry and annulments may occur before the rebels have even had a chance to construct a viable defense, and with the mages striking at soft targets such as the city of chains chantry I can see there being very harsh responses to the slightest signs of insurrection.

[Gervaise]

Again, logic suggests that what blothulfur suggests should have been the case, yet we are informed in the Epilogue that the Chantry has lost control over all the remaining Circles and that the situation is sufficiently serious for the Chantry to want someone who the mages respect to mediate - we are talking mage ending here. However, even the Templar ending states that widespread rebellion by mages occurs, many templars have gone rogue and they now need someone the templars respect to mediate. This means there has to have been some sort of organised movement among the mages before the bomb and the events of Kirkwall provided the catalyst to set things in motion. The information given by Sister Nightingale confirms this fact - for some reason it has become common knowledge what is happending in Kirkwall and how events pan out will determine what happens in the future. Clearly there have been things going on in the wider world which the general populace are unaware of and the mage underground is clearly more than just a means of getting mages out of Kirkwall.

[Torax]

Keep in mind Blothulfur that according to Leliana the Resolutionists are basically a more revolutionist/millitant off shoot of the Libertarians. This means that the possible resistance that we could see in DA2 could have been building up a network a long time before among the Libertarians. IN other words already informing and communicating in secret enough that I bet many would have known what is happening at the very least among the Fraternities. Which then means the rest of the Circles would find out fast.

[Gillborn]

I am more of the belief that it wil be mage vs templars vs seekers.I dont think that the Seekers will sit iddle and watch.After all they have greater power than the templars thus they are so feared by both sides.And i dont believe they are only interested in truth as Kassandra says.What i would like to see though is the conclusion of the war.

[naledgeborn]

Lol Not bad Hanz...

It will look a lot like dragonflight's scenario. However less organized. The Templars have separated from the Chantry. Some support the mages, others want them dead. The Chantry (with the Seekers taking the Templar's place) will be in the middle trying to uphold the status quo. Mages will be fighting amongst each other because of different schools of thought and what schools of magic should/shouldn't be utilized. So no organized effort on their part unless a leader steps in and unifies the mages. So we'll have a weaker Templar Order going against rogue Templars and unorgainized apostate skirmishes. Seekers will be on the sidelines trying to sabotage both factions into Chantry submission.

[dragonflight288]

Keep in mind lyrium addiction and the abominations. Both are HUGE downsides on both sides. An addicted religious nutcase is not going to stop and ask politely for lyrium when he's desperate for it, despite what his superiors may say. The codex entry on Templars itself says the Chantry has, for hundreds of years, mainly recruited templars because of religious zeal instead of integrity. You do have templars like Gregoire who want to work WITH the mages or Thrask who wants to honestly help them.

You have people like Alistair who see the chantry using lyrium as a leash. But you have nutcases like Meredith, Alrik, and Kerras. In Origins, Cullen outright says (in the mage origin when he's far more sympathetic to mages) that many templars under Gregoire's command discuss killing mages with glee.

The only way the templar groups will get along with the overall populace in thedas is if strict rules are enforced to keep civilians out of the mage conflict.

Granted, the same is true for mages with blood magic and abominations.

And yes, I can see the templars and mages both splintering into small groups or cells with their own individual goals because of varying beliefs.