86 réponses à ce sujet

[The Xand]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...So neither side will win or lose, really.

The mages will win, since the breaking of the hold that the Chantry held on them is in itself a great victory. If they can just keep the oppressive tyrannical Templars at bay they will be free.

[IanPolaris]

The Xand wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...So neither side will win or lose, really.

The mages will win, since the breaking of the hold that the Chantry held on them is in itself a great victory. If they can just keep the oppressive tyrannical Templars at bay they will be free.

Good point.  This is a strong inherent advantage that many of the pro-templar posters ignore.  Mages by breaking free have already "won".  They are now de-facto free of the chantry.  That means that in order to suceed, they only need to be sure that they don't totally lose.  In short, a "tie" goes to the mages.

The Templars, OTOH, have to break down all resistance everywhere to ultimately win.....and with an unenviable logistics situation to boot.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

I see both winning and losing until some third threat out of nowhere requires they work together then afterwards there's some peace. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 septembre 2011 - 04:49 .

[Sajuro]

The same as any war, death and destruction on both sides with neither side gaining anything but both sides losing everything, because war.... war never changes

[The Xand]

Sajuro wrote...

The same as any war, death and destruction on both sides with neither side gaining anything but both sides losing everything, because war.... war never changes

I daresay it would change quite a bit if the mages cracked out a few nukes.

[Sajuro]

The Xand wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

The same as any war, death and destruction on both sides with neither side gaining anything but both sides losing everything, because war.... war never changes

I daresay it would change quite a bit if the mages cracked out a few nukes.

A few escaped the nuclear holocaust by hiding in massive underground vaults, but when they came out they had only the hell of the wasteland, and ferelden, to greet them. This was not though, as some had predicted, the end of humanity... it was simply the opening to a new bloody chapter in human history, because war... war never changes.

[IanPolaris]

Sajuro wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

The same as any war, death and destruction on both sides with neither side gaining anything but both sides losing everything, because war.... war never changes

I daresay it would change quite a bit if the mages cracked out a few nukes.

A few escaped the nuclear holocaust by hiding in massive underground vaults, but when they came out they had only the hell of the wasteland, and ferelden, to greet them. This was not though, as some had predicted, the end of humanity... it was simply the opening to a new bloody chapter in human history, because war... war never changes.

That assumes that the suface would have been survivable.  If a "nuke war" was anything like it would have been in the late 20th century, that is not a given.

-Polaris

[The Xand]

Darkspawn super mutants would be a sight to see though. Or...a behemoth brood mother D:

[Sajuro]

The Xand wrote...

Darkspawn super mutants would be a sight to see though. Or...a behemoth brood mother D:

:sick::sick: It's bad enough one has to deliver exposition in Awakening.

[SkittlesKat96]

I think it would mostly be a bunch of spread out large battles.

The mages won't stand a chance without team work so they will probably stick together and go into hiding or make makeshift magical bases/ take over the circles.

So for example maybe in Ferelden:

The Ferelden mages kill several Templars and take the tower to themselves and barricade themselves. Then eventually after some time maybe there will be a big battle or siege or something.

The mages will probably eventually try and look for help and I bet a lot of mages will be forced to fight just because villagers and farmers might try to kill them (the common people of Thedas fear mages don't they?)

The mages will also most likely look for certain people to lead them into battle and organize them. I'm sure there will be freedom fighter mage leaders who inspire the mages and strategize and stuff. Same as the templars, they'll have their own commanders as well.

EDIT: Maybe with the Chantry in disarray though and with Templars revolting and rebelling maybe the Mages won't have such a hard time.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 06 septembre 2011 - 10:04 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is not the Chantry who is going after the mages. So the Chantry being in disarray isn't going to help the mages. Quite the contrary probably, since the Chantry are the ones pushing for peace.

[Sons of Horus]

The Xand and IanPolaris, if you want to post pro-fraction rubbish do it on another thread. If you want to speculate on how mages may triumph over the templar’s and their supporters you are welcome to do so. Just list your reasons on how and why.

[Sons of Horus]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

I think it would mostly be a bunch of spread out large battles.

The mages won't stand a chance without team work so they will probably stick together and go into hiding or make makeshift magical bases/ take over the circles.

So for example maybe in Ferelden:

The Ferelden mages kill several Templars and take the tower to themselves and barricade themselves. Then eventually after some time maybe there will be a big battle or siege or something.

The mages will probably eventually try and look for help and I bet a lot of mages will be forced to fight just because villagers and farmers might try to kill them (the common people of Thedas fear mages don't they?)

The mages will also most likely look for certain people to lead them into battle and organize them. I'm sure there will be freedom fighter mage leaders who inspire the mages and strategize and stuff. Same as the templars, they'll have their own commanders as well.

EDIT: Maybe with the Chantry in disarray though and with Templars revolting and rebelling maybe the Mages won't have such a hard time.

SkittlesKat96 why would Ferelden mages kill Ferelden templars, if Greagoir and Irvine are so chummy and the circle seems to works reasonably well there. I understand your idea but I don’t think it would fit the Ferelden circle’s situation at the moment, even if they did try to have a battle the current ruler would put a stop to it as soon as it reared its head. Ferelden had just suffered a blight remember ? They don’t exactly want another civil war in the country either.
But this was covered earlier in the thread I think.

[Sons of Horus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not the Chantry who is going after the mages. So the Chantry being in disarray isn't going to help the mages. Quite the contrary probably, since the Chantry are the ones pushing for peace.

Thanks EmperorSahlertz for bring the thread back on topic.

[The Xand]

Sons of Horus wrote...

The Xand and IanPolaris, if you want to post pro-fraction rubbish do it on another thread. If you want to speculate on how mages may triumph over the templar’s and their supporters you are welcome to do so. Just list your reasons on how and why.

Already specified how the mages will win. All they need to do is keep independent of the Templars and not surrender and they've won, their original aim being to break away, and the Templars original aim being to prevent that. As to how and why the mages could do such a thing: MAGIC.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not the Chantry who is
going after the mages. So the Chantry being in disarray isn't going to
help the mages. Quite the contrary probably, since the Chantry are the
ones pushing for peace.

The Chantry aren't the ones pushing for peace, and since the Templars are an arm of the Chantry then yes, the Chantry *is* going after the mages. It being in disarray is a mighty boon to the mages since it means they can't organise and declare a new Exalted March.

Modifié par The Xand, 06 septembre 2011 - 07:39 .

[dragonflight288]

As far as the war goes, we see the Seeker Cassandra saying she is looking for the Champion while Leliana at the end of the game was looking for the Warden and neither succeeded. Cassandra says not everyone desires war.

That does not speak for every member of the chantry or every templar. But when I take in-game history into account, I honestly have a hard time seeing the leaders of the Chantry desiring peace. One Divine (in a codex entry) wanted to call an exalted march on her own cathedral because the mages weren't using their magic to light candles. And were peacefully protesting.

And the Chantry is far too involved with Orlais so as to be called separate.

[IanPolaris]

Sons of Horus wrote...

The Xand and IanPolaris, if you want to post pro-fraction rubbish do it on another thread. If you want to speculate on how mages may triumph over the templar’s and their supporters you are welcome to do so. Just list your reasons on how and why.

What I said wasn't "rubbish" at all.  Mages literally can win by not losing.  That's because it's the Templars that have to reestablish the status quo.  As for reasons, consider that the Templars have logistics problems the mages simplely don't.  I've covered this as length elsewhere  and it's hardly "rubbish".

-Polaris

[jamesp81]

The Xand wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

The same as any war, death and destruction on both sides with neither side gaining anything but both sides losing everything, because war.... war never changes

I daresay it would change quite a bit if the mages cracked out a few nukes.

Anyone who says war doesn't solve problems needs to talk to the Romans, the Mongols, the Polish, the Imperial Japanese, the n***s, and the Soviets.

[jamesp81]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sons of Horus wrote...

The Xand and IanPolaris, if you want to post pro-fraction rubbish do it on another thread. If you want to speculate on how mages may triumph over the templar’s and their supporters you are welcome to do so. Just list your reasons on how and why.

What I said wasn't "rubbish" at all.  Mages literally can win by not losing.  That's because it's the Templars that have to reestablish the status quo.  As for reasons, consider that the Templars have logistics problems the mages simplely don't.  I've covered this as length elsewhere  and it's hardly "rubbish".

-Polaris

I think Ian has it here.  For the Templars to win, they have to kill, tranquilize, or imprison every damned mage on the planet.  Mages only have to survive to win.

[Sons of Horus]

jamesp81 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sons of Horus wrote...

The Xand and IanPolaris, if you want to post pro-fraction rubbish do it on another thread. If you want to speculate on how mages may triumph over the templar’s and their supporters you are welcome to do so. Just list your reasons on how and why.

What I said wasn't "rubbish" at all.  Mages literally can win by not losing.  That's because it's the Templars that have to reestablish the status quo.  As for reasons, consider that the Templars have logistics problems the mages simplely don't.  I've covered this as length elsewhere  and it's hardly "rubbish".

-Polaris

I think Ian has it here.  For the Templars to win, they have to kill, tranquilize, or imprison every damned mage on the planet.  Mages only have to survive to win.

Your leaving out all the other factors, say like the whole population of Thedas. Even if the Templars are struggling to killing every mage they see, how is the population going to react well to blood mages or mages that get the thrill to try and one up Anders on playing jenga on chantys (hell if one person can do it why not many). And I doubt rulers are going to tolerate mages or templars running throughout their lands causing chaos, so they will take sides in the conflict to bring their order.

[The Xand]

Hanz54321 wrote...

2 points:

1)  A war is never isolated to two sides.  Everyone in it's path gets pulled in so anyone arguing "well if it's strictly the templars versus the mages" is utilizing an illegitimate set of parameters for discussion.

That's not strictly speaking true. Some wars do escalate, but there's many many wars that only involved the two sides with everyone else not having any vested interest in either side winning. Such as the Russian invasion of Georgia.

In this case however it seems that the scene is set for a global war, with the mages and templars roping in as many people as they can for their respective causes.

Hanz54321 wrote...

2) "Not losing" does not equal "winning".  This requires no exposition.  The opposite point of view requires extensive exposition in a desperate attempt to bend reality.

Vietnam - the war the Viet Cong won by not losing. The Cold War - the war the US won by not losing.

[LobselVith8]

We don't know that the Chantry are pushing for peace, EmperorSahlertz. We really have no idea what their reaction was to the mage schism from the Chantry, and Varric seems to lump Cassandra and the Seekers with the templars who rebelled. Do some of the templars - like, perhaps, Seekers Cassandra and Leliana - want peace? Perhaps. We really have no idea how honest Cassandra was, especially given what she initially says about the Champion spreading "subversion." Nor do I see any realistic compromise between the templars who want to control mages and the mages who want to be free from Chantry and templar control. Even if they were to band together to defeat a common foe, it isn't going to change that they have two irreconcilable goals.

[esper]

One of the thing I liked about origins is that the banding together was dissolve along with the threat. Almost all of the non-cousland boons backfires and people didn't suddenly started to respect elves if the warden was a city elf or mages if the warden was a mage.
If there is a big evil to band together against the mages and templars might - with a big stress under might - just be able to cease fire to defeat the evil, but afterwars they will fall back to fighting.

[MKDAWUSS]

I think the Chantry/Mage war will end up with Flemeth coming out the big winner.