86 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

The same as any war, death and destruction on both sides with neither side gaining anything but both sides losing everything, because war.... war never changes

I daresay it would change quite a bit if the mages cracked out a few nukes.

A few escaped the nuclear holocaust by hiding in massive underground vaults, but when they came out they had only the hell of the wasteland, and ferelden, to greet them. This was not though, as some had predicted, the end of humanity... it was simply the opening to a new bloody chapter in human history, because war... war never changes.

That assumes that the suface would have been survivable.  If a "nuke war" was anything like it would have been in the late 20th century, that is not a given.

-Polaris

Maybe not in America.. I'd be living it up down here in australia though not getting hit by nukes and growing new limbs.. twould be sweet

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It is not the Chantry who is going after the mages. So the Chantry being
in disarray isn't going to help the mages. Quite the contrary probably,
since the Chantry are the ones pushing for peace.

The core sect of the chantry (Brothers, Sisters and Mothers) seem as if they will be quite powerless and useless in the coming war - Besides the seekers which have apparently "Left the chantry to hunt the mages" - The Seekers might even be supporting the templars

The Xand wrote...
Already specified how the mages will win. All they need to do is
keep independent of the Templars and not surrender and they've won,
their original aim being to break away, and the Templars original aim
being to prevent that. As to how and why the mages could do such a
thing: MAGIC.

Doesn't mean they cant lose though, its quite possible such a thing could happen: QUNARI =P. The Qunari could (although inevitably the way the plot will be built it wont happen) They could take over thedas and bring the mages into order, the mages wont resist once they have their control rods and they certainly will loose their freedom.

Or if most of the kingdoms of thedas sided with the Templars. Orlais will, Nevarra and Ferelden might not.. Free Marches - Well it'll be a mess there, Starkhaven is the biggest though isnt it? If Seb gets his City back they will be pro-templar methinks. Andefels to hard to say, they are hardcore andrastians apparently so they will side with whoever the chantry favors. Rivain = Neutral i'd think. Tevinter will be on their own side, According to DG the mages wont be welcome there though. Antiva... Anyones guess.

IanPolaris wrote...
What I said wasn't "rubbish" at all.  Mages literally can win by not
losing.  That's because it's the Templars that have to reestablish the
status quo.  As for reasons, consider that the Templars have logistics
problems the mages simplely don't.  I've covered this as length
elsewhere  and it's hardly "rubbish".

Unless the days of the Inquisition return and the war is essentially neverending but prohaps simply restricted to the Inquisition vs the mages. In which case nobody wins really. The mages will be free sure but wont gain equal rights, will be constantly on the run and have to hide and will be being killed simply for being mages with the Templars determining the Status quo cant be restored and so this is their only option.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 07 septembre 2011 - 05:13 .

[Dave of Canada]

A slaughter, dead mages everywhere! Can't go to the market without tripping over one.

[LobselVith8]

Sajuro wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

The same as any war, death and destruction on both sides with neither side gaining anything but both sides losing everything, because war.... war never changes

I daresay it would change quite a bit if the mages cracked out a few nukes.

A few escaped the nuclear holocaust by hiding in massive underground vaults, but when they came out they had only the hell of the wasteland, and ferelden, to greet them. This was not though, as some had predicted, the end of humanity... it was simply the opening to a new bloody chapter in human history, because war... war never changes.

So that explains why Hawke was a courier...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

I think the Chantry/Mage war will end up with Flemeth coming out the big winner.

What about The Warden and Morrigan, with the OGB? I expect my Surana Warden and Morrigan to reshape Thedas with their son.

[jamesp81]

Doesn't mean they cant lose though, its quite possible such a thing
could happen: QUNARI =P. The Qunari could (although inevitably the way
the plot will be built it wont happen) They could take over thedas and
bring the mages into order, the mages wont resist once they have their
control rods and they certainly will loose their freedom.

I can see how this works.  The templars offer to let the mages return peacefully to the status quo in order to organize to fight the qunari.

In this case, I'd simply make it clear to the rest of thedas that under no circumstances will a mage be subjugated.  Not by the hornheads and not by the templars.  I would threaten to let the entire world burn to prevent that.

And if they tried to call my bluff, they'd very painfully and very quickly learn that it wasn't a bluff.

[LobselVith8]

jamesp81 wrote...

I can see how this works.  The templars offer to let the mages return peacefully to the status quo in order to organize to fight the qunari.

In this case, I'd simply make it clear to the rest of thedas that under no circumstances will a mage be subjugated.  Not by the hornheads and not by the templars.  I would threaten to let the entire world burn to prevent that.

And if they tried to call my bluff, they'd very painfully and very quickly learn that it wasn't a bluff.

Why would the mages ever agree to a return of the status quo? The greatest advantage the Chantry led forces had against the Qunari were the Circle mages, according to the historical account of the New Exalted Marches by Brother Genitivi - I don't see why the mages would agree to bending knee to the templars or the Chantry when, after nearly a millennia of subjugation and population wide assassination, the mages are finally free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

Why would the mages trust the templars or any representative of the Chantry or the Order?

I don't see the remaining Circles of Magi returning to the status quo. It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees. Or, as Magneto said, "I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again."

[EmperorSahlertz]

If the Qunari invade and the mages DON'T return to their Circles, they are going to get their asses handed to them. You think the Qunari are going to allow rampant mages running willy nilly all over the place?
If the Qunari invade, the mages only hope for freedom, would be to fight alongside the Templars against the Qunari.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Qunari invade and the mages DON'T return to their Circles, they are going to get their asses handed to them.

Why? Because their magic is capable of dealing with the advanced technology of the Qunari? Because, according to Gentivi's historic account, the Circle mages were better at magic than their Qunari counterparts? I don't see why the mages would need to return to servitude, or anything that would compel every mage across the continent to go back to living under the heel of the templars and the Chantry.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You think the Qunari are going to allow rampant mages running willy nilly all over the place?

What makes you so certain the Qunari will win? We know relatively little about the leadership of the independent Circles of Magi.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Qunari invade, the mages only hope for freedom, would be to fight alongside the Templars against the Qunari.

I don't see the templars accepting autonomous Circles any more than I see the independent Circles of Magi going back to being in servitude to the templars and the Chantry. Even if the two factions did temporarily unite, it wouldn't change that their goals can't be reconciled with one another.

[Wulfram]

That there are "independent Circles of Magi", rather than scattered bands of rebel cells, is a bit of of an assumption.

In the event of a full scale Qunari invasion, you're likely going to end up with a big game of chicken between Templars and Mages. If you blink last, then you'll get some good concessions, but if no one does then the Qunari take everything.

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

That there are "independent Circles of Magi", rather than scattered bands of rebel cells, is a bit of of an assumption.

In the event of a full scale Qunari invasion, you're likely going to end up with a big game of chicken between Templars and Mages. If you blink last, then you'll get some good concessions, but if no one does then the Qunari take everything.

Varric says the Chantry lost control of the Circles - if the mages simply scattered, his choice of words was very poor.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Varric says the Chantry lost control of the Circles - if the mages simply scattered, his choice of words was very poor.

The Chantry lost control of the Kirkwall circle.  Which resulted in it not existing any more.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Qunari invade and the mages DON'T return to their Circles, they are going to get their asses handed to them.

Why? Because their magic is capable of dealing with the advanced technology of the Qunari? Because, according to Gentivi's historic account, the Circle mages were better at magic than their Qunari counterparts? I don't see why the mages would need to return to servitude, or anything that would compel every mage across the continent to go back to living under the heel of the templars and the Chantry.

Key word here being "were". The Qunari have trained their mages, and tehy are now a match for the Circle Mages. Other than that, the simply fact that the mages do not have the combined armies of Thedas to help them, should be enough to convicne you that the Qunari are going to curbstomp the mages.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You think the Qunari are going to allow rampant mages running willy nilly all over the place?

What makes you so certain the Qunari will win? We know relatively little about the leadership of the independent Circles of Magi.

The fact that the Qunari army, probably outnumber the mages. Qunari outnumbering you, is usually a recipe for defeat.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Qunari invade, the mages only hope for freedom, would be to fight alongside the Templars against the Qunari.

I don't see the templars accepting autonomous Circles any more than I see the independent Circles of Magi going back to being in servitude to the templars and the Chantry. Even if the two factions did temporarily unite, it wouldn't change that their goals can't be reconciled with one another.

They won't have a choice. They either accept, or they die. And their goals can be reconciled. Mages can be allowed freedoms, and the Templars can keep their vigil.

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Varric says the Chantry lost control of the Circles - if the mages simply scattered, his choice of words was very poor.

The Chantry lost control of the Kirkwall circle.  Which resulted in it not existing any more.

I don't recall that term being used in reference to the Chantry controlled Circle of Kirkwall.

I could've sworn one of the developers used the term when discussing what the status of the post-Right of Annulment Circles of Magi could be like (I believe it was JohnEpler in the thread where he was saying that the narrative shouldn't have focused on codex entries to tell certain story elements, like the Band of Three), but Ethereal Writer Redux may remember that thread better than I do.

[Wulfram]

Given the established capability of Templars to Annull rebellious circles - they've successfully carried out the Right 18 times if you include Kirkwall - I don't see how intact independent circles make sense.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Key word here being "were". The Qunari have trained their mages, and tehy are now a match for the Circle Mages. Other than that, the simply fact that the mages do not have the combined armies of Thedas to help them, should be enough to convicne you that the Qunari are going to curbstomp the mages.

According to what codex entry or what character are the Qunari mages now on par with the Circle mages?

With the right leadership, the mages can win. It comes down to a matter of leadership.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The fact that the Qunari army, probably outnumber the mages. Qunari outnumbering you, is usually a recipe for defeat.

So your entire premise is basically that the Qunari "probably" outnumber the mages? If the mages hold back and let the templars and the Andrastian armies fight the Qunari back and forth until both sides have been weakened greatly, would the mages still lose in your scenerio?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They won't have a choice. They either accept, or they die. And their goals can be reconciled. Mages can be allowed freedoms, and the Templars can keep their vigil.

I don't think their goals can be reconciled because the mages don't want to be controlled by the Chantry and the templars, and the Chantry and the templars want to control the mages. If the leadership of the templars accepted free mages, why did the templars rebel from the Chantry? The templars, according to Cullen, also think they have "divine right" over the mages.

[Sajuro]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

The same as any war, death and destruction on both sides with neither side gaining anything but both sides losing everything, because war.... war never changes

I daresay it would change quite a bit if the mages cracked out a few nukes.

A few escaped the nuclear holocaust by hiding in massive underground vaults, but when they came out they had only the hell of the wasteland, and ferelden, to greet them. This was not though, as some had predicted, the end of humanity... it was simply the opening to a new bloody chapter in human history, because war... war never changes.

So that explains why Hawke was a courier...

Bioware: You may think this is a string of bad luck, but the truth is, the game was rigged from the start -shoots Hawke-

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Key word here being "were". The Qunari have trained their mages, and tehy are now a match for the Circle Mages. Other than that, the simply fact that the mages do not have the combined armies of Thedas to help them, should be enough to convicne you that the Qunari are going to curbstomp the mages.

According to what codex entry or what character are the Qunari mages now on par with the Circle mages?

With the right leadership, the mages can win. It comes down to a matter of leadership.

No it doesn't. It really doesn't. You can have the best general in the history of creation, and then limit his possibilities, resources, and manpower, and you are left with nothing but a man with a fancy title, but little power.

And for the Saarebas. History of Kirkwall. Can't remember which part of it. One of them though.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The fact that the Qunari army, probably outnumber the mages. Qunari outnumbering you, is usually a recipe for defeat.

So your entire premise is basically that the Qunari "probably" outnumber the mages? If the mages hold back and let the templars and the Andrastian armies fight the Qunari back and forth until both sides have been weakened greatly, would the mages still lose in your scenerio?

Fine. If you are going to be such a quibble... The Qunari army DO outnumber the mages. And if the mages hold back, the Qunari are going to curbstomp Thedas' armies, and then the mages.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They won't have a choice. They either accept, or they die. And their goals can be reconciled. Mages can be allowed freedoms, and the Templars can keep their vigil.

I don't think their goals can be reconciled because the mages don't want to be controlled by the Chantry and the templars, and the Chantry and the templars want to control the mages. If the leadership of the templars accepted free mages, why did the templars rebel from the Chantry? The templars, according to Cullen, also think they have "divine right" over the mages.

Mages must realize that tehy will always have to be controlled in some way. Tempalrs must realize that mages must be allowed to lead normal lifes. Reasonably normal lifes anyway...

[LobselVith8]

Sajuro wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So that explains why Hawke was a courier...

Bioware: You may think this is a string of bad luck, but the truth is, the game was rigged from the start -shoots Hawke-

And now I know why Hawke has 1 INTEL. Damn you, Doc...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No it doesn't. It really doesn't. You can have the best general in the history of creation, and then limit his possibilities, resources, and manpower, and you are left with nothing but a man with a fancy title, but little power.

And for the Saarebas. History of Kirkwall. Can't remember which part of it. One of them though.

Fighting a war with rebel templars and the Andrastian nations will be taxing to the Qunari. It's not as though a fight with the mages will be at full strength - they will need to devote their resources to dealing with the human armies and the multitude of nations that will try to prevent their expansion. It's not like there isn't a historic precedent for small forces defeating large armies.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Fine. If you are going to be such a quibble... The Qunari army DO outnumber the mages. And if the mages hold back, the Qunari are going to curbstomp Thedas' armies, and then the mages.

If the mages hold back and let the Andrastian nations and the rebel templars focus on the Qunari, I think that the Qunari would be greatly weakened with the loss of life and resources. If the edge that the Andrastian armies are missing is the mages because of the saarebas and the advanced technology of the Qunari, wouldn't that put the mages in an advantageous position?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages must realize that tehy will always have to be controlled in some way. Tempalrs must realize that mages must be allowed to lead normal lifes. Reasonably normal lifes anyway...

Again, I don't see the mages overall accepting any degree of control from the Chantry or the templars when they rebelled against Chantry and templar control across the continent.

[Wulfram]

I think most mages want to live relatively normal lives, not be on the run or fighting for their lives. Offer them something which allows that with some degree of security, and I'd expect the bulk to accept.

[Sajuro]

@ Emperorsahlertz
I think you are assuming that the mages won't have sympathizers that fight with them against the templars and some mages won't fight against the main body of mages. The Templar forces would be able to counter act the Qunari mages since Meredith was able to use her silence ability to stop that one from casting and killing Hawke and company.
The Qunari are also at war with Tevinter still if I'm not mistaken, so they aren't at their strongest anyways and the mages could always use hit and run tactics on them since you don't need to get close when throwing fire balls and summoning lightning storms.
For the record, I don't oppose the concept of circles but I feel they should be more of a school to teach mages how to control their power and get a sort of license before they leave to show they aren't just demon bait. The problem with the circles is that they are prisons to the mages and depending on the templars they can be a living hell.

[dragonflight288]

From what I can tell about Thedas (and Orzammar) politics, should the Qunari invade then everyone would be too busy killing each other so the Qunari won't have to do it.

[Sajuro]

dragonflight288 wrote...

From what I can tell about Thedas (and Orzammar) politics, should the Qunari invade then everyone would be too busy killing each other so the Qunari won't have to do it.

It would be interesting to see if the Thedans put aside their differences and united to fight back against the Qunari.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sajuro wrote...

@ Emperorsahlertz
I think you are assuming that the mages won't have sympathizers that fight with them against the templars and some mages won't fight against the main body of mages. The Templar forces would be able to counter act the Qunari mages since Meredith was able to use her silence ability to stop that one from casting and killing Hawke and company.
The Qunari are also at war with Tevinter still if I'm not mistaken, so they aren't at their strongest anyways and the mages could always use hit and run tactics on them since you don't need to get close when throwing fire balls and summoning lightning storms.
For the record, I don't oppose the concept of circles but I feel they should be more of a school to teach mages how to control their power and get a sort of license before they leave to show they aren't just demon bait. The problem with the circles is that they are prisons to the mages and depending on the templars they can be a living hell.

The Templars wont be able to get to the Saarebas, since the actual Qunari army is going to slaughter the Templars.

[dragonflight288]

The Templars wont be able to get to the Saarebas, since the actual Qunari army is going to slaughter the Templars.

You know that for certain then?

I think most mages want to live relatively normal lives, not be on the run or fighting for their lives. Offer them something which allows that with some degree of security, and I'd expect the bulk to accept.

Do remember there are always bad eggs. And the blood mages/abominations will still make the vast majority of people fear mages. And then there's the libertarians who want to be seperate the chantry entirely. Anything with templars and the chantry would be received with a huge "no."

Wynne says that they want to separate entirely in Awakening, and we have almost a decade since then. That's a decade of arguing for and against.