491 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

JohnEpler wrote...

If you find yourself unable to respond to a point with more than a single word 'troll', then perhaps refrain from posting. Why you'd think that kind of post is in any way acceptable is beyond me.

Indeed; at the very least put some effort and make it "You troll." instead, people. That will show you care ;/

slightly more serious and on-topic: like i wrote in the other thread i'd prefer a more flexible system, but the one presented sounds quite positive as it is.

edit: incidentally, this system as described is nearly identical to how Final Fantasy games handle this issue -- the characters can be equipped with all sorts of stat-providing gear, but they retain their fixed apperance. Difference is they only have one such appearance rather than few variants. Bit amusing how BioWare keep introducing aspects of the games the Good Ol' Doctors so mercilessly mocked for being stale...

Modifié par tmp7704, 02 septembre 2011 - 03:19 .

[addiction21]

willholt wrote...

... and someone already put the 1% back

Sorry my bad. It was cooking me breakfest.

[tfive24]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There's no point in giving alternative outfits unless they are available early on in the game too because by the end there is very little point in switching the armour for last few fights or being stuck in a building waiting for DLC. There would need to be a large amount of outfits/armour [quantity] as it were to choose from and most importantly it cannot be mostly [sold] to us as DLC, it should almost all be in game to begin with else your no better than EA Sims titles selling furniture, pet toys, costumes, virtual table cloths and toilet paper at all $5-$15 each.

That level of nickle and dime tactics would annoy me beyond belief, you are already heading that way with all these purchase of virtual weapons, items and clothes for DA2 and while I can understand some people buying such silly things I have to wonder do they realise the monster they are creating... /EndRant

Dragoonlordz steps up to the plate and knocks out a grand-slam homerun. 
I can't rap my head around about buying skins for a rpg. I can see for an action game like Gears of War, Uncharted, and etc, but not for a rpg .

[Serpieri Nei]

tmp7704 wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

If you find yourself unable to respond to a point with more than a single word 'troll', then perhaps refrain from posting. Why you'd think that kind of post is in any way acceptable is beyond me.

Indeed; at the very least put some effort and make it "You troll." instead, people. That will show you care ;/

slightly more serious and on-topic: like i wrote in the other thread i'd prefer a more flexible system, but the one presented sounds quite positive as it is.

edit: incidentally, this system as described is nearly identical to how Final Fantasy games handle this issue -- the characters can be equipped with all sorts of stat-providing gear, but they retain their fixed apperance. Difference is they only have one such appearance rather than few variants. Bit amusing how BioWare keep introducing aspects of the games the Good Ol' Doctors so mercilessly mocked for being stale...

Sad but True.

[tfive24]

I don't like the iconic look at all, but i will wait and see how Mass Effect 3 comes out. That game will give us an idea how they will do this "iconic look" set armors. I didn't use Jack, Miranda, or Jacob a lot because they had those stupid costumes on in combat, while i looked liked a tank.

[willholt]

Some have made the point that if we have both systems running side by side (Iconic looks and full visual & stat customisation) the iconic outfit would lose out in terms of adaptability to different playstyles and builds.

There is one simple way around this.

I think it was in Awakenings, you could buy a book that allowed you to completely respec a character... Atributes, skills and powers. If you had a similar system for iconic armours/outfits it might work. Have an in-game item/tool, one that allows you to respec the attributes of the iconic armour to whatever you need or prefer.

The respec would probably have to be within the limits of the particular armour's level... so finding or receiving more powerful iconic armour at a game's later stages would allow you to respec to different, but equally powerful stats.

This 'respec' ability could be kept purely for the iconic armours. This would then in fact make them more adaptable than generic armours, worth using and keeping (if you liked them and wish to do so), and would balance the viability (buildwise) with normal generic armours that you find and use.

It might be one way to have both iconic looks that give you viable and changeable builds, and fully visual and stat customisation for those who prefer  having their own looks on the party.

Just a thought.

[jcrusader]

So basically it means, is it ok if we stream line it, this far?
Considering i actually like RPGs i have to say strongly no!

[Gemini1179]

Loved Laidlaw's ideas. All I wanted in DA2 was like 3 different outfits for my companions but adding customization and upgrades to the mix sounds good. It takes you a bit out of the 'world' if after 7 years Isabela is still wearing the same tiny scrap of cloth. Seriously, with that woman's lifestyle, there is no way her clothing lasts the week.

[Eollodwyn]

Fandango9641 wrote...

You know, I’m going to backpeddle a little here and say that I wouldn’t object to the idea of having some Iconic party members in the manner of Morrigan and Shale if it meant we were granted Origins style visual customisation rights for the remainder of our party. A party that is made up of at least some members who are largely tied down to an iconic look for reasons of lore and others who are free to adorn themselves with the spoils of battle would be a compromise I could support.

Speaking personally, I'd prefer if everyone had iconic looks, but it would be better than nothing, I suppose.  If they were to do that, though, I would rather they at least threw in one unique armor per character, so they can at least have one unique look. 

Heck, I’d even consider the limitation of armour to race and class to be a reasonable concession too. Would that work?

I'd like this better than the above, actually.  For one, it does just make sense lore-wise, and it might allow for unique body models since they would have a limited number of characters the armor would have to fit.  Still not everything I want, but you can't always get what you want.

willholt wrote...

Some have made the point that if we have
both systems running side by side (Iconic looks and full visual &
stat customisation) the iconic outfit would lose out in terms of
adaptability to different playstyles and builds.

There is one simple way around this.

I
think it was in Awakenings, you could buy a book that allowed you to
completely respec a character... Atributes, skills and powers. If you
had a similar system for iconic armours/outfits it might work. Have an
in-game item/tool, one that allows you to respec the attributes of the
iconic armour to whatever you need or prefer.

The respec would
probably have to be within the limits of the particular armour's
level... so finding or receiving more powerful iconic armour at a game's
later stages would allow you to respec to different, but equally
powerful stats.

This 'respec' ability could be kept purely for
the iconic armours. This would then in fact make them more adaptable
than generic armours, worth using and keeping (if you liked them and
wish to do so), and would balance the viability (buildwise) with normal
generic armours that you find and use.

It might be one way to
have both iconic looks that give you viable and changeable builds, and
fully visual and stat customisation for those who prefer  having their
own looks on the party.

Just a thought.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

I'd be okay with this.  It'd suck to get the unique look really late in the game, though.  Maybe they could start out with it and it could level with them?  I don't know enough about programming to know what is a viable option, but I think your idea could work.  It'd probably mean that there'd be no unique body models, though. 

[Yrkoon]

Il Divo wrote...

In Exile wrote...


2) Saying that she can "just wear the robes" is really insulting. Because the whole point is that those of us who want iconic looks want Morrigain to keep her iconic apperance independent of the statistics. 

Exactly. This was the case in KotOR (and other Bioware games). I like Canderous' initial outfit, which I thought fit him very well. However, it had absolutely no stats attached. Lo and behold, I discover Durasteel Body Armor, which provides a whopping 10 AC for my character. I'm forced to choose whether I want Canderous to appear different or to possess gameplay effectiveness, which I am not a fan of. What if I want him to possess both?

No one on this thread is suggesting that the Iconic gear should  be underpowered, unupgradeable starter equipment.

When we bring up the Morrigan example, we mean  the method Bioware took in it.  As in... she's got her look, and you could change it if you want.  you could even find vastly more powerful iconic gear for her later on, if that's what you're looking for.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 05:53 .

[esper]

Yrkoon wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

In Exile wrote...


2) Saying that she can "just wear the robes" is really insulting. Because the whole point is that those of us who want iconic looks want Morrigain to keep her iconic apperance independent of the statistics. 

Exactly. This was the case in KotOR (and other Bioware games). I like Canderous' initial outfit, which I thought fit him very well. However, it had absolutely no stats attached. Lo and behold, I discover Durasteel Body Armor, which provides a whopping 10 AC for my character. I'm forced to choose whether I want Canderous to appear different or to possess gameplay effectiveness, which I am not a fan of. What if I want him to possess both?

No one on this thread is suggesting that the Iconic gear should  be underpowered, unupgradeable starter equipment.

But you could never make an automatic-leveling gear match all the stat-custimization people want. You was forced give Morrigan certain stats if you wanted her iconic look. 

[Yrkoon]

Armor isn't meant to be the sole source of stat customization, regardless of the system being proposed. That's what level ups, talents,  weapons, rings, belts, amulets and tomes are for.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 05:51 .

[alex90c]

esper wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

In Exile wrote...


2) Saying that she can "just wear the robes" is really insulting. Because the whole point is that those of us who want iconic looks want Morrigain to keep her iconic apperance independent of the statistics. 

Exactly. This was the case in KotOR (and other Bioware games). I like Canderous' initial outfit, which I thought fit him very well. However, it had absolutely no stats attached. Lo and behold, I discover Durasteel Body Armor, which provides a whopping 10 AC for my character. I'm forced to choose whether I want Canderous to appear different or to possess gameplay effectiveness, which I am not a fan of. What if I want him to possess both?

No one on this thread is suggesting that the Iconic gear should  be underpowered, unupgradeable starter equipment.

But you could never make an automatic-leveling gear match all the stat-custimization people want. You was forced give Morrigan certain stats if you wanted her iconic look. 

I posted an idea in some other thread I think, saying that you could perhaps go to tanners/blacksmiths/whatever and purchase stat improvements just like you can for the Hawke key. Then it would either work two ways:

1. "I want to have X amount of critical chance"
- game charges you an amount based on how much of a stat you want and a "value" it sets on each stat (so for example +50 attack will come at a cheaper price than 25% chance per hit to stun)

2. "I want improved critical chance"
- game charges you set amount for each stat bonus you want, and it scales, along with the outfit to the companion's level. So an outfit with a +attack stat may have +13 at level 1 and then +236 at level 25

Not sure what the prices would be, but I think it would enable further customisation.

[willholt]

esper wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

In Exile wrote...


2) Saying that she can "just wear the robes" is really insulting. Because the whole point is that those of us who want iconic looks want Morrigain to keep her iconic apperance independent of the statistics. 

Exactly. This was the case in KotOR (and other Bioware games). I like Canderous' initial outfit, which I thought fit him very well. However, it had absolutely no stats attached. Lo and behold, I discover Durasteel Body Armor, which provides a whopping 10 AC for my character. I'm forced to choose whether I want Canderous to appear different or to possess gameplay effectiveness, which I am not a fan of. What if I want him to possess both?

No one on this thread is suggesting that the Iconic gear should  be underpowered, unupgradeable starter equipment.

But you could never make an automatic-leveling gear match all the stat-custimization people want. You was forced give Morrigan certain stats if you wanted her iconic look. 

Hence my suggestion above ... allowing the player to respec iconic outfits.

[esper]

willholt wrote...

esper wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

In Exile wrote...


2) Saying that she can "just wear the robes" is really insulting. Because the whole point is that those of us who want iconic looks want Morrigain to keep her iconic apperance independent of the statistics. 

Exactly. This was the case in KotOR (and other Bioware games). I like Canderous' initial outfit, which I thought fit him very well. However, it had absolutely no stats attached. Lo and behold, I discover Durasteel Body Armor, which provides a whopping 10 AC for my character. I'm forced to choose whether I want Canderous to appear different or to possess gameplay effectiveness, which I am not a fan of. What if I want him to possess both?

No one on this thread is suggesting that the Iconic gear should  be underpowered, unupgradeable starter equipment.

But you could never make an automatic-leveling gear match all the stat-custimization people want. You was forced give Morrigan certain stats if you wanted her iconic look. 

Hence my suggestion above ... allowing the player to respec iconic outfits.

But isn't that what Laidlaw is already suggesting?
And what I like with icon armor is the different than normal body shapes, so I am going to be rude and say a I don't want the option for normal armor to be visible on the companions because that mean that they are forced to have generic body shapes. 

[willholt]

esper wrote...



But isn't that what Laidlaw is already suggesting?

Nope .. His suggestion is totally different... It allows unique gear to be respecced but at the cost of losing visual custimisation

esper wrote...
And what I like with icon armor is the different than normal body shapes, so I am going to be rude and say a I don't want the option for normal armor to be visible on the companions because that mean that they are forced to have generic body shapes. 

Well, putting iconic gear  on the NPC will change the body shape of that NPC to the Iconic gear. I'm quite happy to have my NPCs shape change to a generic one WHEN I put my generic armour on the NPC... The only one losing out on the unique shape would be me

So I'll be equally as rude and disagree with you

Joking on the rude bit

[just_me]

Eollodwyn wrote...

Heck, I’d even consider the limitation of armour to race and class to be a reasonable concession too. Would that work?

I'd like this better than the above, actually.  For one, it does just make sense lore-wise, and it might allow for unique body models since they would have a limited number of characters the armor would have to fit.  Still not everything I want, but you can't always get what you want.

I'd say that this suggestion reduces customization, since any armour set is probably only for a single character (due to the rather specific restrictions)
And I'm pretty sure if armour is restricted to class,Race (and maybe even gender) we will have very few armor sets for each combination...
and since an armour set is only for a single character it's pretty much the same an an "iconic outfit" ... except that the player can/has to stitch them together him/herself... It also reduces stat customization through gear somewhat, since there are fewer pieces to choose from...
So none of the "swappable armour people" should agree to this...

My idea to keep "iconic armour" useful in the DA:O system:
Every companion starts with a iconic outfit(chestpiece that overrides the other slots, like in DA:O), the outfit improvese with lvl up.
There should be at least one visually distinct other unique outfit per companion, providing slightly different base values (say less armor, but a defense boost instead)
Further stat customization is done via upgrades and runes, upgrades and runes can be removed and added as the player sees fit.
E.g. an armour has 3 slots for upgrades but per companion 10 are available in the game so the player can choose the "active upgrades", as in DA2 upgrades provide additional runeslots or other bonuses (preferably stuff that cannot be achieved with runes)
So respecing the armour would not be necessary and the game does not need to throw the "same unique outfit" at us just to update it's armor rating, only problem is the required subsystem of armour upgrades, which is only used for a fraction of the armour (the unique outfits...)
I think respecing the armour and choosing the properties from the full pool of potential properties is potentially pretty overpowered...

Modifié par just_me, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:10 .

[Il Divo]

Yrkoon wrote...

No one on this thread is suggesting that the Iconic gear should  be underpowered, unupgradeable starter equipment.

When we bring up the Morrigan example, we mean  the method Bioware took in it.  As in... she's got her look, and you could change it if you want.  you could even find vastly more powerful iconic gear for her later on, if that's what you're looking for.

Which was nice, but it was entirely build oriented. What if I don't want those robes? And where was this for Alistair? Leliana? Zevran? Morrigan and Shale are the only characters with this possibility. Constant appearances means I can customize a character's stats/ abilities however I want without a character's outfit appearing generic.

[Yrkoon]

esper wrote...


And what I like with icon armor is the different than normal body shapes, so I am going to be rude and say a I don't want the option for normal armor to be visible on the companions because that mean that they are forced to have generic body shapes. 

Wrong.  It can be done without forcing a generic body shape.   Armor can  resize/re-mesh  to  perfectly reflect a unique body.   

 All the Armors in the game can  be  made to  accurately fit a one-armed warrior.  Or a woman with giant ******, or a wirey, tatooed pretty-boy like Fenris.


But  that requires  1) much effort and 2) much time, and  3) a  commitment to detail on the part of the developers.    But currently,  all three of these  are  out of the question, which is why Laidlaw came out a few days ago to offer up some  blatantly limited  "work-around".

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:16 .

[esper]

Yrkoon wrote...

esper wrote...


And what I like with icon armor is the different than normal body shapes, so I am going to be rude and say a I don't want the option for normal armor to be visible on the companions because that mean that they are forced to have generic body shapes. 

Wrong.  It can be done.   Armor can  resize/re-mesh  to  perfectly reflect a unique body shape.    In  the same manner of  Oghren's dwarven Legion of the Dead armor  managing to fit a giant like   Sten.

Armor can even be re-meshed to  accurately fit a one-armed warrior.  Or a woman with giant ******, or a wirey, tatooed pretty-boy like Fenris.


But  that requires  effort and time, and a  commitment to detail on the part of the developers.    But currently, that seems  to be out of the question, which is why laidlaw came out a few days ago to offer up some  blatantly limited  "work-around".

Yes, but it is costy and I don't want to waste too much memory space or time from whoever team on it when there are areas I would much rather see enchanted. Plus I must admit that I like that the icon amor is canon. It was irritating the one time where I didn't have Morrigan in her rags, but some nice mage clothes (don't remember why) and she pre-landsmeet in da:o still said that the servant was proposing to find something better than her 'rags'.
I know it is egoistic, but I want iconic armors and I don't want other to have the abilities to change out of the armor because if the icon armor is canon it just change give the oppertunity for some small details that generic armor doesn't. (Like Morrigan and Aveline actually mentioning what kind of clothes they wear).

[Liaren]

I like it. I prefer DAII's system because all companions have an unique outfit.

[Yrkoon]

Il Divo wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

No one on this thread is suggesting that the Iconic gear should  be underpowered, unupgradeable starter equipment.

When we bring up the Morrigan example, we mean  the method Bioware took in it.  As in... she's got her look, and you could change it if you want.  you could even find vastly more powerful iconic gear for her later on, if that's what you're looking for.

Which was nice, but it was entirely build oriented. What if I don't want those robes?

then you don't have to use them.

what's the problem here?

[Yrkoon]

esper wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

esper wrote...


And what I like with icon armor is the different than normal body shapes, so I am going to be rude and say a I don't want the option for normal armor to be visible on the companions because that mean that they are forced to have generic body shapes. 

Wrong.  It can be done.   Armor can  resize/re-mesh  to  perfectly reflect a unique body shape.    In  the same manner of  Oghren's dwarven Legion of the Dead armor  managing to fit a giant like   Sten.

Armor can even be re-meshed to  accurately fit a one-armed warrior.  Or a woman with giant ******, or a wirey, tatooed pretty-boy like Fenris.


But  that requires  effort and time, and a  commitment to detail on the part of the developers.    But currently, that seems  to be out of the question, which is why laidlaw came out a few days ago to offer up some  blatantly limited  "work-around".

Yes, but it is costy

For the developer, maybe.    But so   is making unique areas instead of  re-using  the same cave/warehouse a dozen times. (for example)  But if you're ok with low-budget cash grabs, then by all means: continue to be happy. 

esper wrote...
Plus I must admit that I like that the icon amor is canon. It was irritating the one time where I didn't have Morrigan in her rags, but some nice mage clothes (don't remember why) and she pre-landsmeet in da:o still said that the servant was proposing to find something better than her 'rags'.
I know it is egoistic, but I want iconic armors and I don't want other to have the abilities to change out of the armor because if the icon armor is canon it just change give the oppertunity for some small details that generic armor doesn't. (Like Morrigan and Aveline actually mentioning what kind of clothes they wear).

That's fine.   Everyone has their aesthetic tastes.  The only argument I'm making here is that the player should have the choice.

[Il Divo]

Yrkoon wrote...

then you don't have to use them.

what's the problem here?

Do I really have to spell it out for you?

I want Morrigan's iconic appearance with full stat customization.

Dragon Age: Origins presents me with two options:

1) Leave her in the original outfit, which has very minimal stats.

2) Give her one other set of robes.

I like neither option one or two. It's that simple. You have not provided a solution by mentioning the alternative set.

Modifié par Il Divo, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:29 .