491 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Zanallen wrote...

esper wrote...

I would also like some kind of crafting, actually. But that is just because I don't like the idea of stripping corpes.

Looting corpses for weapons and armor is a RPG staple that really needs to go. It is completely unrealistic. I could maybe see looting weapons if it was some fabled magical weapon or if your own weapon was lost, but never armor. You just killed the man, how good could his armor possibly be?

Exactly. I would much rather we found ore and other crafting materials and then presented them to an craftman who could make us the weapon and armor.
How do the heroes even have the time to stop and begin the stripping of corpses and how do they fit them in the first place? It is unrealistic on so many levels.

[Zanallen]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Well, I've spent some time today considering how Japanese fighting games (which sometimes seem to be considered the epitome of iconic looks) are moving towards ever increasing customization instead. Not only that, but the feedback is pretty conclusive. When DOAU first arrived, featuring a multitude of costumes, they almost wiped out Tekken.
The gamers do NOT want iconic looks. They want customization. They DO however want uniqueness, as in variation. And I kinda get the feel that this is what people here, in these threads, also want, regardless of what side of the fence they are. Truly 'iconic' looks are only wanted by the marketing people.  
But yea, Japanese fighting games, once held by one poster as a prime example of how clever iconic looks are, now feature an amazing level of customization. In one of them, you can stitch up almost any kind of costume from a large wardrobe of garment details, and colour each and any of them in almost any colour.
...Meanwhile, Bioware are moving "forward", newspeak mode.
To be more fair to Bioware, Mike's suggestion could mean more of uniqueness of looks than 'iconic' looks. We'll have to see how it's implemented.

To be fair, the amount of visual customization in most fighting games is the same amount offered by Bioware. Set looks designed by the developers that you then get to pick from. The only ones that offer more are those with create a character mode where you design your own character to play as, much like how you have complete control over the PC. The characters who have their own background and personality have set looks while the character you make yourself is completely customizable.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

And what I think is giving player a range of options greatly increases the chances that a given player will find a given look they find appealing.  Some may like Isabela in a tunic.  Others in pants.  Some may like Merrill in green robes, and others in white armor. 

An "iconic range" is probably a better idea than an "iconic look" as it potentially broadens appeal without making the characters generic.    

Agreed. I recommend you coin that term for the future.

[esper]

Yrkoon wrote...

esper wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

esper wrote...

How many times do I need to say da2 to make it clear that I talk abot da2?

But we were discussing proposals for DA3...

Yeah, and I am saying it is something I would like to continue into da3 because I felt it set the rouge and warrior class more apart than the two classes were in da:o.

To hell with player freedom and choice then.

I don't really see what it has to do with choices. Dualclasses are not aviable in DA anyway. So the gameplay of each class might as well different besides choosing your class is a choice as well. It should have some consqeuences of what weapons you can use.  

[Yrkoon]

esper wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

esper wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

esper wrote...

How many times do I need to say da2 to make it clear that I talk abot da2?

But we were discussing proposals for DA3...

Yeah, and I am saying it is something I would like to continue into da3 because I felt it set the rouge and warrior class more apart than the two classes were in da:o.

To hell with player freedom and choice then.

I don't really see what it has to do with choices.

  LOL  You don't, eh?  Let me see if I can explain it  in example form.

I want my awesome-in-melee-combat  warrior to dual-wield.

Nope, so sorry,    Choice not available!  Only rogues can dual-wield!

[Il Divo]

Sylvius what page was your armor idea on? I'm having trouble locating it.

[bEVEsthda]

Zanallen wrote...

esper wrote...

I would also like some kind of crafting, actually. But that is just because I don't like the idea of stripping corpes.

Looting corpses for weapons and armor is a RPG staple that really needs to go. It is completely unrealistic. I could maybe see looting weapons if it was some fabled magical weapon or if your own weapon was lost, but never armor. You just killed the man, how good could his armor possibly be?

Umm, actually, robbing the armour was absolutely routine in medieval times. Weapons too. Those things where extremely expensive you know.

[erynnar]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

And what I think is giving player a range of options greatly increases the chances that a given player will find a given look they find appealing.  Some may like Isabela in a tunic.  Others in pants.  Some may like Merrill in green robes, and others in white armor. 

An "iconic range" is probably a better idea than an "iconic look" as it potentially broadens appeal without making the characters generic.    

Agreed. I recommend you coin that term for the future.

I would like the range . Best of both worlds would be to have the option to clothe them the way you want or have an "Iconic range."  Hmmm I like that term. You should coin that.

[willholt]

esper wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

esper wrote...

I would also like some kind of crafting, actually. But that is just because I don't like the idea of stripping corpes.

Looting corpses for weapons and armor is a RPG staple that really needs to go. It is completely unrealistic. I could maybe see looting weapons if it was some fabled magical weapon or if your own weapon was lost, but never armor. You just killed the man, how good could his armor possibly be?

Exactly. I would much rather we found ore and other crafting materials and then presented them to an craftman who could make us the weapon and armor.
How do the heroes even have the time to stop and begin the stripping of corpses and how do they fit them in the first place? It is unrealistic on so many levels.

I think people are forgetting the 'fun' side of the equation.

It is actually fun after a hard-won battle to find loot on fallen foes... Real life is irrelevant. In real life much of what goes on in a fantasy RPG does not happen.

I really enjoy finding loot, as part of the fighting process, and  also exploring for it... In real life I don't fight and kill, nor do I walk into people's houses and loot their chests as they stand there like lemons. There'sw something very satisfying about killing a hard adversary, then finding some gloriously powerful weapon or piece of armour on them.

Damn... but you guys just want to take ALL the fun out of playing an RPG

[Serpieri Nei]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

esper wrote...

I would also like some kind of crafting, actually. But that is just because I don't like the idea of stripping corpes.

Looting corpses for weapons and armor is a RPG staple that really needs to go. It is completely unrealistic. I could maybe see looting weapons if it was some fabled magical weapon or if your own weapon was lost, but never armor. You just killed the man, how good could his armor possibly be?

Umm, actually, robbing the armour was absolutely routine in medieval times. Weapons too. Those things where extremely expensive you know.

Much cheaper to repair a suit/weapon then pay for a new one.

[esper]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

esper wrote...

I would also like some kind of crafting, actually. But that is just because I don't like the idea of stripping corpes.

Looting corpses for weapons and armor is a RPG staple that really needs to go. It is completely unrealistic. I could maybe see looting weapons if it was some fabled magical weapon or if your own weapon was lost, but never armor. You just killed the man, how good could his armor possibly be?

Umm, actually, robbing the armour was absolutely routine in medieval times. Weapons too. Those things where extremely expensive you know.

I really think the heroes have money enough and also with the spell/fighting methods we use there isn't much armor left - I think. (Thinks blood slave) Also there is still the matter if the armor fits. I doubt it in many cases, but no need to fear. I don't think bioware are going to stop weapon loot.

[Zanallen]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Umm, actually, robbing the armour was absolutely routine in medieval times. Weapons too. Those things where extremely expensive you know.

Robbing to sell it, yes. Not robbing to wear it. And especially not when you don't have a pack horse or something to carry it on.

[just_me]

I see what you mean with breaking the game though, so maybe upgrades should be fairly pricey. Or, each outfit has a "weight". So say, a final outfit may have a weight of "4" which means it can handle four average stat bonuses, whereas if you engrave it with more powerful stat bonuses (say perhaps the 25% chance of stun I mentioned), that stat since it was so powerful would have a different "weight", say "3.5" so that then you could only add "0.5." of extra stat bonus, which may perhaps just be the player trying to slip in a small attack bonus. Of course this would all rely on the first example I gave ("I want to have X amount of critical chance") rather than "I want improved critical chance") ... though I suppose the latter could work.

Of course applying some border conditions woul help, using the property multipliers of the equipment would balance things further (say a chest piece can handle 10 "weight", and a helmet only 5 since this item types multiplier is 0,5 ... so simply apply DA2 scaling system)
and if you set some reasonable cost ratios for the various effects (e.g 1% crit chance costs 0,2 weight and 1% stun chance 0,4) you have a decent chance that nothing terribly broken is possible... and then you need some way get the actual item lvl in the equation, adjusting the cost ratio would probably be the easiest solution(so on a low lvl item 1% crit chance uses more weight than on a higher lvl item)
But with the addition of "weight" I think the system is even more similar to the rune concept, albeit it is more flexible (you can decide to have a lot of very small enchantments, while if you have 3 runeslots available you can pick a maximum of 3 different effects...)

The thing I liked about runes in DA:O was that the investment was not lost since you could just remove them and put them elsewhere. So you could 1) put anything in a runeslot without worrying that you could have found something better for the slot and 2) you could put a rune anywhere without worrying that the rune might be wasted in this slot (because you find better stuff shortly after) So this is a point where runes are more flexible^^ ... unless you can undo the applied effects again and get your money back...
But imo Bioware should make a few additions to runes: Apply the concept of "power lvl" to runeslots as well, so putting a rune in a slot has a greater effect than putting it in another slot ( e.g an item has to slots putting a rune in slot one grants +10% dmg and in slot two only +5% since slot one has a higher powelvl), and represent all effects with runes (so you find an item that has some runes preset that you can remove, instead of finding an item that has some "static" effects preset, rare items could have rare runes that you can still remove and put in other armor if you wish)
I like the idea but still think the overlap with runes is rather high, but still... having both systems wouldn't hurt xD

[FieryDove]

Filament wrote...

It would be interesting if we switched to a system where all armor was tailor made using found materials rather than just picking up ill fitted armor off of armor racks or ill fitted and damaged armor off of defeated corpses.

I would like to craft armor and weapons (look and function).

But isn't that the opposite direction they want to go? Making things more accessible? They took out crafting in da2. We have medieval home shopping network now. (DAA rune making was painful so yeah on that part)

[Zanallen]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Much cheaper to repair a suit/weapon then pay for a new one.

Not really. You could patch it, but it wouldn't last long or be nearly as useful as it was. Most likely, you'd have to get it reforged. Might be slightly cheaper, but not by much.

[esper]

FieryDove wrote...

Filament wrote...

It would be interesting if we switched to a system where all armor was tailor made using found materials rather than just picking up ill fitted armor off of armor racks or ill fitted and damaged armor off of defeated corpses.

I would like to craft armor and weapons (look and function).

But isn't that the opposite direction they want to go? Making things more accessible? They took out crafting in da2. We have medieval home shopping network now. (DAA rune making was painful so yeah on that part)

It could be like the 'crafting' system in da2 (and yeah rune making was so painfull I only did it once). I guess crafting is not a compromise, but would be a completely new direction. I could be interesting, though.

[Serpieri Nei]

Solution is easy - allow for Origins Armor system - then the devs can make some great looking armor sets for each of the companions and the protagonist to be used in their tier progression throughout the game. And if I think I look better in Isabella's pirate set (that is my choice as the player) and she can wear some other good looking armor set. Best of both worlds and where Bioware’s art team can show us that cut and pasting is below them.

Also want to see actual armor/weapon crafting where palyers can create a set of armor, and CHOOSE what armor models are used for each piece within reason. Plate armor should be made from plates, leather armor made from leather, and so on.

Now Bioware, you’ll need to understand this I will not pay more for a substandard product so if you want to compromise, well then you can start with the price of the game because there is no way I’m forking over another $60.00’s for some hybrid that has elements from a game that I found to be mediocre at best.

[FieryDove]

As far as loot drops go. Loot sells; it can keep players playing for years. Sets/unique/rare/magic Blizzard knows how to do loot and random properties. I could site WoW and the diablo series, most of the people I know play for loot. Some takes forever to get but it’s a hook.

It might not be something you care about or want but to sell games and keep players playing (and buying dlc and whatnot) you need hooks.

[just_me]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Well, I've spent some time today considering how Japanese fighting games (which sometimes seem to be considered the epitome of iconic looks) are moving towards ever increasing customization instead. Not only that, but the feedback is pretty conclusive. When DOAU first arrived, featuring a multitude of costumes, they almost wiped out Tekken.
The gamers do NOT want iconic looks. They want customization. They DO however want uniqueness, as in variation. And I kinda get the feel that this is what people here, in these threads, also want, regardless of what side of the fence they are. Truly 'iconic' looks are only wanted by the marketing people.  
But yea, Japanese fighting games, once held by one poster as a prime example of how clever iconic looks are, now feature an amazing level of customization. In one of them, you can stitch up almost any kind of costume from a large wardrobe of garment details, and colour each and any of them in almost any colour.
...Meanwhile, Bioware are moving "forward", newspeak mode.
To be more fair to Bioware, Mike's suggestion could mean more of uniqueness of looks than 'iconic' looks. We'll have to see how it's implemented.

Well but the general opinion of "harcore" fighting game players is , that visual customization is only there to please the "casual crowd", hardly anyone of the people I know enjoys putting custom outfits together... some like to make colour edits of the existing models ... so they like to create their own flavour of the "iconic look"
If the developers announce that they want to expand the CC mode the usual reaction is "I don't care, better invest more time to balance the game"(... mainly talking about the SC scene here...)
But many DO care alot about the standard iconic looks ( oh NO character X's design is terrible, it was sooo much better before...)

On a sidenote: SC allows some modifaction of the bodystucture and still all items fit the models properly

[bEVEsthda]

Zanallen wrote...
To be fair, the amount of visual customization in most fighting games is the same amount offered by Bioware. Set looks designed by the developers that you then get to pick from. The only ones that offer more are those with create a character mode where you design your own character to play as, much like how you have complete control over the PC. The characters who have their own background and personality have set looks while the character you make yourself is completely customizable.

That is so, sometimes. But there is still a trend towards customization. DOAU offered some background characters, what? I don't remember, 9? 13? different costumes. That's not 'iconic' looks anymore. It's unique looks and customization. There is also sometimes a greater amount of detail customization even for the background characters. In SC IV for instance, the amount of possible customization varies from character to character.

[Alex Kershaw]

I voted 'positive'. I almost put 'very positive' but I think perhaps one thing it is missing is a toggle option between them wearing the equipped armour and their iconic look. Also, there needs to be confirmation that the inventory system is going to be improved - the whole 'ring, ring, ring, sword' approach needs to go completely or the new equipment system will fail.

The reason I like the system is that, in Origins, for example, putting Morrigan in immaculate circle robes pained me, but I had to do it or else be less efficient in combat. And even more so, those silly mage hats. On the other hand, the lack of customisability in DA2 was even worse, so I think it's the best of both...

As unlikely as it sounds, I've now gone from being in complete belief that any future DA game will simply further destroy the memory of DAO to slightly raising my eyebrows at the reaction from Bioware.

Modifié par Alex Kershaw, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:23 .

[ScotGaymer]

I never understood the fixation with iconic looks myself.

Yeh I get that they want to make the companion NPCs more unique and definated but why they cant just create individual armours/robes/looks ala Morrigan in DAO for ALL the companions/important NPCs rather than locking each companion into the same outfit for 7 years.

If you make the outfits "grow" as the companion levels, or able to be upgraded into better versions during the course of the game but leave the companions able to equip whatever you want them to then you can satisfy both crowds.

But apparently thats not something thats able to happen.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I love loot. Especially when it is useful. Anything I can use I'll equip to my companions or myself right away. Stuff that I cannot use I'll sell. I also equip gear that looks good even though it's stats may be slightly worse than the stuff equipped. The same goes for armor pieces for companions. Companion armor takes that fun away. And if realism gets in the way of fun then I'll prefer fun. After all, fun is what games are about.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:22 .

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Yet another propblem solved by having a shallower power curve.

No, Sylvius, you misunderstand. I am not opposed to a system that allows for visual customization as a compromise (because I want DA to stay viable as a series), even though philosophically I think visual customization like in DA:O is directly contrary to an RPG.

I am objecting to a specific implementation (i.e. the way Morrigain's iconic look was handled).

There are many ways around this.  You're simply assuming a bad design, and then pointing out how bad it would be.

A bad design was proposed. I merely pointed out why it was.