491 réponses à ce sujet

[bEVEsthda]

just_me wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Well, I've spent some time today considering how Japanese fighting games (which sometimes seem to be considered the epitome of iconic looks) are moving towards ever increasing customization instead. Not only that, but the feedback is pretty conclusive. When DOAU first arrived, featuring a multitude of costumes, they almost wiped out Tekken.
The gamers do NOT want iconic looks. They want customization. They DO however want uniqueness, as in variation. And I kinda get the feel that this is what people here, in these threads, also want, regardless of what side of the fence they are. Truly 'iconic' looks are only wanted by the marketing people.  
But yea, Japanese fighting games, once held by one poster as a prime example of how clever iconic looks are, now feature an amazing level of customization. In one of them, you can stitch up almost any kind of costume from a large wardrobe of garment details, and colour each and any of them in almost any colour.
...Meanwhile, Bioware are moving "forward", newspeak mode.
To be more fair to Bioware, Mike's suggestion could mean more of uniqueness of looks than 'iconic' looks. We'll have to see how it's implemented.

Well but the general opinion of "harcore" fighting game players is , that visual customization is only there to please the "casual crowd", hardly anyone of the people I know enjoys putting custom outfits together... some like to make colour edits of the existing models ... so they like to create their own flavour of the "iconic look"
If the developers announce that they want to expand the CC mode the usual reaction is "I don't care, better invest more time to balance the game"(... mainly talking about the SC scene here...)
But many DO care alot about the standard iconic looks ( oh NO character X's design is terrible, it was sooo much better before...)

On a sidenote: SC allows some modifaction of the bodystucture and still all items fit the models properly

There will always be voices like that. They actually may not mean so much. The really fun part of playing SC IV online was seeing all the creativity with costumes and characters.

[Vicious]

Customization while retaining a unique look is pure win. Who the hell over 12 thinks it's amusing to put ugly mismatching outfits on characters?

[In Exile]

Yrkoon wrote...
Narrow, outlook, eh?    Maybe it's not a narrow outlook so much as it is me actually realizing that it's always  been rather easy to build a really *good*  Bloodmage  (or any type of mage)  regardless of how many  bonus Con points  (or whatever) a piece of armor bestows upon you.  

A really *good* bloodmage and the best bloodmage are not the same thing. 

You haven't answered the objection at all. You've just said that I should deal with not being able to build a character any way I want if I want to have an iconic look. That's just the opposite of the offer on the table, which you whine so much about: you can customize the stats however you want... and deal with it if you don't like the visuals.

It's called accurately distributing your stats every level up.

Distribute them however you want. If I have a robe that adds +2 to magic and you don't. for the same build my magic stat will always be higher. My build will always be better. 

Which has nothing to do with your  mage's Armor.... or at least it didn't in DA:O.

It certainly did. A robe that adds +5 to magic grants you +10 spellpower, which is a solid boost in dmg. 

I would think that the devs  would be smart enough to make a character's iconic gear be a little bit more statistically customizable, while at the same time,  litter the game with decent alternative equipment for the rest of us who happen to DISLIKE the iconic look.

The same devs. you've repeatedly said are lazy, cheap or othewise incapable of implementing RPG features? It's good to know that you change your view on a dime when it suits your argument. But we know that already, didn't we? 

There's only one solution: divorce the look from the stats. What Mr. Laidlaw proposes is one variant. I'm certainly open to others. But what you're suggesting can't solve the problem. It just creates more problems. 

Or is that too insulting for you, Exile?

Well, at least  you're not lying and making up facts to prove your point again, so it's a step in the right direction.

In Exile wrote...
But the system  Laidlaw is proposing doesn't give us that choice!  Regardless of  of their stats, or what you equip on them, your characters will not change their looks. 

So? Keep the build consistent with the look. It's the same logic you've put forward: if the look is so dear to you, deal with the stats that diminish your build. It's a "choice" after all. 

Modifié par In Exile, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:30 .

[billy the squid]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Solution is easy - allow for Origins Armor system - then the devs can make some great looking armor sets for each of the companions and the protagonist to be used in their tier progression throughout the game. And if I think I look better in Isabella's pirate set (that is my choice as the player) and she can wear some other good looking armor set. Best of both worlds and where Bioware’s art team can show us that cut and pasting is below them.

Also want to see actual armor/weapon crafting where palyers can create a set of armor, and CHOOSE what armor models are used for each piece within reason. Plate armor should be made from plates, leather armor made from leather, and so on.

Now Bioware, you’ll need to understand this I will not pay more for a substandard product so if you want to compromise, well then you can start with the price of the game because there is no way I’m forking over another $60.00’s for some hybrid that has elements from a game that I found to be mediocre at best.

This would probably be my preferred option or something along these lines.

[In Exile]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Yeah, resource constraints are just not my concern as a consumer. This is a business relationship, not a charity. If they cannot provide the product that [let's say, half] the franchise fan base wants, then that half will feel no desire to pay money for what they consider to be a substandard product, and honestly they shouldn't pay for something they don't want or would be unsatisfied with.  

Absolutely. But as a consumers, we don't have to care what the other side wants. I like iconic looks. I don't care about DA:O style visual customization. So on those grounds, I have absolutely no reason to care that you have any visual customization at all. Which means that it's fine to defend this system (which you feel does not satisfy your taste) on the grounds that it satisfies mine alone. 

Why anyone would argue on behalf of the company providing a product to actually provide less, is beyond me. I want those who like iconic looks to get what they want AND those who don't like them to get what they want too.

It's the same principle you just espoused. You don't pay for someone else's copy of DA3. They're under no obligation to stand up for your taste. 

[hoorayforicecream]

bEVEsthda wrote...

There will always be voices like that. They actually may not mean so much. The really fun part of playing SC IV online was seeing all the creativity with costumes and characters.

People don't hold tournaments to see who has the most creative costume and character.

[FieryDove]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

There will always be voices like that. They actually may not mean so much. The really fun part of playing SC IV online was seeing all the creativity with costumes and characters.

People don't hold tournaments to see who has the most creative costume and character.

You never tried City of Heroes/City of Villains have you? Lots of that...tons.

[hoorayforicecream]

FieryDove wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

There will always be voices like that. They actually may not mean so much. The really fun part of playing SC IV online was seeing all the creativity with costumes and characters.

People don't hold tournaments to see who has the most creative costume and character.

You never tried City of Heroes/City of Villains have you? Lots of that...tons.

Because the poster I quoted totally meant City of Heroes/Villains when he said SC IV, right? 

[just_me]

There will always be voices like that. They actually may not mean so much. The really fun part of playing SC IV online was seeing all the creativity with costumes and characters.

Maybe for you... I do not hang around much on 8wayrun so I don't know the "international opinion", but the german scene is not very fond of the feature (nor are the french as far as I know... although they had a custom char fun tournament 2 years ago at WGC... but in the real tournament custom chars were banned, as well as custom appearances of standard chars)
Most people do not hate customization, they just do not care, but some argue that all the customization stuff destroys the chars, since you can create looks vastly different to the "iconic appearance"... and of course... every minute spent on CC could have been spend on designing better movesets and balancing the game...
So the "core audience" of ©RPGs and Beat em ups seems to value customization rather differently..

[In Exile]

willholt wrote...
There is one simple way around this.

It's all the same solution: divorce statistics from the apperance.

The easiest way to do it is to just have "apperance" slots and "item slots" where you can have one look for the armour, one build for the statistics, and if you remove the "apperance" item it just defaults to an iconic.

This is the highest cost option (and tmp's or Xewaka's idea, so credit where credit is due) but it addresses the problem. 

So long as it doesn't make it even more unlikely Bioware will have more than one racial/gender build, I'm onboard. Otherwise, though, I support the solution that provides the best outcome for the iconic look. 

[FieryDove]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Because the poster I quoted totally meant City of Heroes/Villains when he said SC IV, right? 

I guess I should have expanded my post. Many people do like it. It can bleed over into other games and make them even more successful.

[just_me]

People don't hold tournaments to see who has the most creative costume and character.

Actually... someone once wanted to make a custom char contest on one of the tournaments I go to (welll... our once per year german community event), but barely anyone was interested... I would have participated with my Princess Peach, but didn't care either...

[hoorayforicecream]

just_me wrote...

People don't hold tournaments to see who has the most creative costume and character.

Actually... someone once wanted to make a custom char contest on one of the tournaments I go to (welll... our once per year german community event), but barely anyone was interested... I would have participated with my Princess Peach, but didn't care either...

I can believe that. But even then, the tournament winner isn't the most creative costume or character. The tournament winner is still the one who wins the fights.

[addiction21]

Vicious wrote...

Customization while retaining a unique look is pure win. Who the hell over 12 thinks it's amusing to put ugly mismatching outfits on characters?

WoW seems pretty popular with people of all ages...

[kingjezza]

I just want to be able to equip my party as I see fit, Imagine picking up a set of armour like the Sentinal Armour from Awakening and not being able to use it for any of your characters, or just as bad, being able to equip it and having your character stay looking the same in whatever crappy costume Bioware deem Iconic.

This whole Iconic argument is a total nonsense anyway, is Merrill more iconic than Leliana or Aveline more so than Alistar? Are they buggery, creating Iconic characters isn't about what they are wearing, it's about great writing, Indiana Jones makes his hat an iconic item of clothing, not the other way around.

[Yrkoon]

Vicious wrote...

Who the hell over 12 thinks it's amusing to put ugly mismatching outfits on characters?

I imagine the same type of person  who thinks it's amusing to create  a melee specialist that  will charge head long into  every battle   wearing  nothing but  a bandana, a shirt and a thong.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 10:04 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

I am 54 and believe in the long lost concept of fun in games. I am like that. It's silly. I know.

Assume I have two options. One is to gather armor pieces (gauntlets, boots, helmet and chest piece) for my companions and me one armor piece at a time by doing quests to unlock them or collect money to buy them. Improving worse gear for better stuff and getting the stuff that looks great. I swap stuff from companion to companion along the way. I am satisfied when I finally have it like I want it. It has taken me ages to get that far. There is progression, I had fun doing that and chuckle when it is done. The other option, the companion armor one, simply consists of finding or buying better upgrades. After all, it doesn't do anything for the looks. When all 4 or 5 open squares on some status screen are filled, I am done. At best I can get recolored companion armor in DA3. Whoopsie. Well... My choice is clear. I rather have the first option. Too bad, guys, but I am not having fun with the second.

Of course you can argue that the DA:O armor was often recolored, but that is only partially true. There was unique armor. Besides, such an argument does not cut wood, because we are discussing to make DA3 a kick ass game. So, the first option should be improved upon. And that's possible by creating more unique armor.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 02 septembre 2011 - 10:19 .

[just_me]

I can believe that. But even then, the tournament winner isn't the most creative costume or character. The tournament winner is still the one who wins the fights.

I would have been a "beauty contest" just the people staring at the chars and voting for the prettiest, no fighting involved, so the prettiest (probably the most stupid one... cuz it's funny) would have won, but it didn't happen since nobody cared, even if it had happened nobody woul care about the result, not even the person proposing the contest. Because core fighting game players are not interested in character customization.
So claiming that character customization is a feature gamers in general desire, just because it get's more and more common (in Namco/Bandai) Beat em Ups is - I think - reading too much into it. Especially since the feature is nothing more than a "cash in" feature for the core players... pretty much the same as all the streamlining in DA2.

Modifié par just_me, 02 septembre 2011 - 10:25 .

[Yrkoon]

In Exile wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
Narrow, outlook, eh?    Maybe it's not a narrow outlook so much as it is me actually realizing that it's always  been rather easy to build a really *good*  Bloodmage  (or any type of mage)  regardless of how many  bonus Con points  (or whatever) a piece of armor bestows upon you.  

A really *good* bloodmage and the best bloodmage are not the same thing. 

They are when we're talking about companions.   None of your companions in either game can  ever be the *best* blood mage, since both games are mechanically and statistically designed to insure that only the protagonist can be the best.

You haven't answered the objection at all.

Yes.  I have.   And so have many others here.   Scroll back already.   My suggestion is to make the Iconic gear fully customizable  (for those who want iconic gear),  while also making it removable (for those of us who  have our OWN ideas on what we want our companions to look like)

Real friggin simple.    

You've just said that I should deal with not being able to build a character any way I want if I want to have an iconic look.

WHAT?  when did I ever say that?

It certainly did. A robe that adds +5 to magic grants you +10 spellpower, which is a solid boost in dmg. 

Not to nit-pick here  (oh, F**K it. I'm gonna nit-pick away because you're annoying me)  +5 magic in DA:O  equates to +5 spellpower, not +10.  And    spellpower's  enhancements to damage output is  far, far more http://dragonage.wik...llpower]complex[/url] than you're making it out to be.  The difference of 5 spell power between two mages is remarkably miniscule.  In some cases, non-existant with regards to how much damage you do.   And   I'd dare say, even insignificant compared to other properties that,  for example, Morrigan's Robe bestows.

I would think that the devs  would be smart enough to make a character's iconic gear be a little bit more statistically customizable, while at the same time,  litter the game with decent alternative equipment for the rest of us who happen to DISLIKE the iconic look.

The same devs. you've repeatedly said are lazy, cheap or othewise incapable of implementing RPG features?

LOL!  good point.  I stand corrected.   Count on them to  completely screw up  in the execution of any good idea.  

There's only one solution: divorce the look from the stats.

No, that's not a  very good solution.  I want to be able to get an idea on how powerful someone is by how they're decked out.  A shimmering sword should reflect  the magical power eminating from that sword.  Meticulously detailed dwarven runes, painstakingly  carved on an expensive-looking suit of  ancient plate should have the adequate stats to match its appearance.

You want  to divorce appearance from funcionality?    Ugh... no. 

[Yrkoon]

In Exile wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
Narrow, outlook, eh?    Maybe it's not a narrow outlook so much as it is me actually realizing that it's always  been rather easy to build a really *good*  Bloodmage  (or any type of mage)  regardless of how many  bonus Con points  (or whatever) a piece of armor bestows upon you.  

A really *good* bloodmage and the best bloodmage are not the same thing. 

They are when we're talking about companions.   None of your companions in either game can  ever be the *best* blood mage, since both games are mechanically and statistically designed to insure that only the protagonist can be the best.

You haven't answered the objection at all.

Yes.  I have.   And so have many others here.   Scroll back already.   My suggestion is to make the Iconic gear fully customizable  (for those who want iconic gear),  while also making it removable (for those of us who  have our OWN ideas on what we want our companions to look like)

Real friggin simple.    

You've just said that I should deal with not being able to build a character any way I want if I want to have an iconic look.

WHAT?  when did I ever say that?

It certainly did. A robe that adds +5 to magic grants you +10 spellpower, which is a solid boost in dmg. 

Not to nit-pick here  (oh, F**K it. I'm gonna nit-pick away because you're annoying me)  +5 magic in DA:O  equates to +5 spellpower, not +10.  And    spellpower's  enhancements to damage output is  far, far more complex than you're making it out to be.  The difference of 5 spell power between two mages is remarkably miniscule.  In some cases, non-existant with regards to  the  difference in damage.   And   I'd dare say, even insignificant compared to other properties that,  for example, Morrigan's Robe bestows.

I would think that the devs  would be smart enough to make a character's iconic gear be a little bit more statistically customizable, while at the same time,  litter the game with decent alternative equipment for the rest of us who happen to DISLIKE the iconic look.

The same devs. you've repeatedly said are lazy, cheap or othewise incapable of implementing RPG features?

LOL!  good point.  I stand corrected.   Count on them to  completely screw up  in the execution of any good idea.  

There's only one solution: divorce the look from the stats.

No, that's not a  very good solution.  I want to be able to get an idea on how powerful someone is by how they're decked out.  A shimmering sword should reflect  the magical power eminating from that sword.  Meticulously detailed dwarven runes, painstakingly  carved on an expensive-looking suit of  ancient plate should have the adequate stats to match its appearance.

You want  to divorce appearance from funcionality?      I say no.  That would be silly. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 10:57 .

[Yrkoon]

Yrkoon wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
Narrow, outlook, eh?    Maybe it's not a narrow outlook so much as it is me actually realizing that it's always  been rather easy to build a really *good*  Bloodmage  (or any type of mage)  regardless of how many  bonus Con points  (or whatever) a piece of armor bestows upon you.  

A really *good* bloodmage and the best bloodmage are not the same thing. 

They are when we're talking about companions.   None of your companions in either game can  ever be the *best* blood mage, since both games are mechanically and statistically designed to insure that only the protagonist can be the best.

You haven't answered the objection at all.

Yes.  I have.   And so have many others here.   Scroll back already.   My suggestion is to make the Iconic gear fully customizable  (for those who want iconic gear),  while also making it removable (for those of us who  have our OWN ideas on what we want our companions to look like)

Real friggin simple.    

You've just said that I should deal with not being able to build a character any way I want if I want to have an iconic look.

WHAT?  when did I ever say that?

It certainly did. A robe that adds +5 to magic grants you +10 spellpower, which is a solid boost in dmg. 

Not to nit-pick here  (oh, F**K it. I'm gonna nit-pick away because you're annoying me)  +5 magic in DA:O  equates to +5 spellpower, not +10.  And    spellpower's  enhancements to damage output is  far, far more http://dragonage.wik...llpower]complex[/url] than you're making it out to be.  The difference of 5 spell power between two mages is remarkably miniscule.  In some cases, non-existant with regards to how much damage you do.   And   I'd dare say, even insignificant compared to other properties that,  for example, Morrigan's Robe bestows.

I would think that the devs  would be smart enough to make a character's iconic gear be a little bit more statistically customizable, while at the same time,  litter the game with decent alternative equipment for the rest of us who happen to DISLIKE the iconic look.

The same devs. you've repeatedly said are lazy, cheap or othewise incapable of implementing RPG features?

LOL!  good point.  I stand corrected.   Count on them to  completely screw up  in the execution of any good idea.  

There's only one solution: divorce the look from the stats.

No, that's not a  very good solution.  I want to be able to get an idea on how powerful someone is by how they're decked out.  A shimmering sword should reflect  the magical power eminating from that sword.  Meticulously detailed dwarven runes, painstakingly  carved on an expensive-looking suit of  ancient plate should have the adequate stats to match its appearance.

You want  to divorce appearance from funcionality?    Ugh... no. 

[AngryFrozenWater]

To get your point across it helps when you post something, Yrkoon.

[Yrkoon]

I did... three times, and when I hit the edit button it shows me everything I wrote, and everyone I'm quoting.... WTF.

Does my keyboard need a new ink cartrige?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 10:44 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

You haven't answered the objection at all. You've just said that I should deal with not being able to build a character any way I want if I want to have an iconic look. That's just the opposite of the offer on the table, which you whine so much about: you can customize the stats however you want... and deal with it if you don't like the visuals.

That's exactly what every game gives us.  If you don't like the iconic look in DA2, you're screwed.  If you don't like any of the generic armours in DAO, you're screwed.

And that's important.  Yes, absolutely someone who doesn't care about appearances can build a stronger character.  That's always the case if there's any appearance customisation that isn't divorced from stats.  In DAO, if you didn't care how the Warden looked, you could give him better armour.  But if you refused to wear the mage hoods because you hated them, then you were always going to have lower stats than someone who didn't mind the mage hoods.

You're complaining about a problem that can't go away without divorcing appearance from stats, which, as you point out, is the most expensive solution.

There's only one solution: divorce the look from the stats.

Unfortunately, divorcing the look from the stats only solves your problem, not ours. Some of us want to be able to customise the appearance of all of the characters equally.  That has nothing to do with stats.