491 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

ipgd wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

1. We can't equip our companions as we'd like, the way we did in Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Dragon Age Origins. Basically the proposition is just the way DA2 worked, slightly tweaked.

Well, it's more than slightly tweaked, as my DEFINITIVELY SCIENTIFIC BAR CHARTS prove:



Of course, if you are solely a Cares About Swappable Armor person, there is little Change That You Care About within the system. A statement like "I do not like this proposal because it generates low quantities of Change That I Care About" would be true. A statement like "there is no change in this proposal because only Change That I Care About can be considered real change" would not be true, because the existence of change is not defined solely by whether or not it is Change That You Care About. There is an objectively significant amount of Unqualified Change in the proposed system. It should not be confused with The Operationally Significant Quantity of Change Following Subjective Evaluation of Said Change, which is a function of Your Opinions as An Individual who is Not Everybody Else.

*applause*

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fandango9641 wrote...

And for those who consider Mike’s proposal to be a fair compromise ask yourself this: what elements of his beloved Dragon Age 2 are being omitted in conciliation here?

I don't consier the fairness of the compromise at all relevant, but I will point out that this proposal does remove the forced statistical constraints of DA2.  DA2 required that each companion not only have the appearance the designers wanted, but also the statistical profile the designers wanted.

But the DA3 proposal enforces only the appearances, not the statistics.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fandango9641 wrote...

You don’t consider the fairness of the compromise to be at all relevant? What exactly does the word compromise mean to you Sylvius? As for your point about the removal of 'statistical profiles', it's a fair one. Weak but fair.

I don't think it matters what the starting points were.  I find it much more useful to evaluate the DA3 proposal entirely on its own merits.

The extent to which it is a compromise between the DAO design and the DA2 design doesn't have any bearing on what features are in the proposal.

As for the supposed weakness of my point, the statistical profile should be at least as important to the designers as the appearance is, if they're concerned about telling a story with the companions.  And yet they seem willing to abandon the statistical side, even though that's the part that affects behaviour.

That they're willing to move on the statistics, I think, undercuts their defence of unique appearances.

[Sylvianus]

I voted positive. I hope I won't regret it.

Also a true variety of outfits this time ( no recolor )... and not only outfits without pants or look distinctive, or I don't know what. I want my team dressed properly for the combat. At least one armor for each warrior and rogue.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 septembre 2011 - 08:23 .

[bEVEsthda]

ipgd wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

1. We can't equip our companions as we'd like, the way we did in Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Dragon Age Origins. Basically the proposition is just the way DA2 worked, slightly tweaked.

Well, it's more than slightly tweaked, as my DEFINITIVELY SCIENTIFIC BAR CHARTS prove:



Of course, if you are solely a Cares About Swappable Armor person, there is little Change That You Care About within the system. A statement like "I do not like this proposal because it generates low quantities of Change That I Care About" would be true. A statement like "there is no change in this proposal because only Change That I Care About can be considered real change" would not be true, because the existence of change is not defined solely by whether or not it is Change That You Care About. There is an objectively significant amount of Unqualified Change in the proposed system. It should not be confused with The Operationally Significant Quantity of Change Following Subjective Evaluation of Said Change, which is a function of Your Opinions as An Individual who is Not Everybody Else.

Troll.

[Zjarcal]

Fandango9641 wrote...

And for those who consider Mike’s proposal to be a fair compromise ask yourself this: what elements of his beloved Dragon Age 2 are being omitted in conciliation here?

And what exactly do you want to remove from DA2's system? The ideal solution for everyone would be Mike's current system, with an extra option in the wardrobe to "display equipped outfit", but even that solution wouldn't remove anything from DA2's system.

DA2's system was basically just "unique looks" with nothing else to it. Remove the unique looks and you've removed the entire system.

[bEVEsthda]

ipgd wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...


And is there still nothing to be said for a system that allows for distinct body models, iconic armours and Origins style party customisation? You know, a game that we can all enjoy and play as we want? Why are we all thinking in terms of accepting compromise for the sake of cosplay instead of asking Mike and his team to deliver on Rays promise for the “best of both”? I don’t particularly want distinct body models or iconic armours for companions, but support the idea of their inclusion in DA3 for those who do. Where’s the support for the sad folk like me who really want a return to Origins style party customisation?

I'm guessing at this point this is a rhetorical question meant to express your frustration and you do not actually have any interest in reading an answer to it?

Troll

[vania z]

I think poll clearly shows how split bioware's fanbase currently is. Opinion distribution looks like sum of two normal distributions.

[elearon1]

I think what people have to realize is, this is the way it is going forward, whether you find it to be the perfect solution or not. I think they have a good point about allowing you to put just any armor on your companions quickly taking away their individual appearances until you end up with a bunch of people in ugly, rehashed armor.

The system they've put forward for DA3 is a fantastic compromise. Not only will you be able to apply the stats from armors you find in game to your npcs, but those same companions will also have multiple possible appearances made available throughout the game - so they won't always be wearing the same outfits. So the companions maintain their individuality while you get the pleasure of min-maxing their bonuses - it is the compromise I had always hoped they'd make in DA2.

[bEVEsthda]

Zjarcal wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

And for those who consider Mike’s proposal to be a fair compromise ask yourself this: what elements of his beloved Dragon Age 2 are being omitted in conciliation here?

And what exactly do you want to remove from DA2's system? The ideal solution for everyone would be Mike's current system, with an extra option in the wardrobe to "display equipped outfit", but even that solution wouldn't remove anything from DA2's system.

DA2's system was basically just "unique looks" with nothing else to it. Remove the unique looks and you've removed the entire system.

Forced equipment, of course, is the what many of us would like to remove.

[Serpieri Nei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Don't support this system - if my slots are allocated to plate armor - the character visualization should reflect it - by wearing plate armor - and not half naked with his chest hair hanging out.

You do realize they are trying to see if by equipping armor on a companion it adds a bit of armor to their iconic look?

It would still be noticeable as Varric being in his iconic look, but it would still have some visual customization by maybe having reinforced arm guards, or a bit of plate on the chest, or whatever.

You do realize they are experimenting with it - and Varic wearing plate guantlets with his chest hair exposed - yeah I'll pass on it.

[bEVEsthda]

elearon1 wrote...

I think what people have to realize is, this is the way it is going forward, whether you find it to be the perfect solution or not. I think they have a good point about allowing you to put just any armor on your companions quickly taking away their individual appearances until you end up with a bunch of people in ugly, rehashed armor.

!!! Excuse me!!! - Where's the problem?

[Vaeliorin]

Wusword77 wrote...
While it's true to the letter of the word, 9% of that 53% are netural on the subject.  This implies that they are indifferent to the proposed Armor system.

This isn't really true.  I voted neutral because, while I think the change is better than what we had, it's not enough to make me positive about it.  I'm not indifferent, I just think the positives and negatives of the proposed change are pretty evenly balanced.

It's probably the closest to a perfect compromise that we're going to get, which to me is shown by the poll results.  Neither side is really coming out of this happy, which generally tends to mean that the compromise that was reached is pretty fair.

[Eollodwyn]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

And for those who consider Mike’s proposal to be a fair compromise ask yourself this: what elements of his beloved Dragon Age 2 are being omitted in conciliation here?

And what exactly do you want to remove from DA2's system? The ideal solution for everyone would be Mike's current system, with an extra option in the wardrobe to "display equipped outfit", but even that solution wouldn't remove anything from DA2's system.

DA2's system was basically just "unique looks" with nothing else to it. Remove the unique looks and you've removed the entire system.

Forced equipment, of course, is the what many of us would like to remove.

But that is what's being removed.  The proposed system would let you equip them with what you want.

[bEVEsthda]

Eollodwyn wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

And for those who consider Mike’s proposal to be a fair compromise ask yourself this: what elements of his beloved Dragon Age 2 are being omitted in conciliation here?

And what exactly do you want to remove from DA2's system? The ideal solution for everyone would be Mike's current system, with an extra option in the wardrobe to "display equipped outfit", but even that solution wouldn't remove anything from DA2's system.

DA2's system was basically just "unique looks" with nothing else to it. Remove the unique looks and you've removed the entire system.

Forced equipment, of course, is the what many of us would like to remove.

But that is what's being removed.  The proposed system would let you equip them with what you want.

Stats, yes. Visuals no.

[just_me]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Stats, yes. Visuals no.

And if you add the visuals you have DA:Os system and there is no compromise either.
The proposed toggle is probably the easiest solution to make everyone happy... but if they do this with every aspect that splits the community we will end up with a lot of toggles in DA3

[ipgd]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Troll

Trolling implies that I am insincere and that my primary motivation is in illiciting a negative response in lieu of actually participating in the discussion. I think you have seen enough of my endless quantity of posts from the last thread to know that, yes, I do actually give a **** about this topic. Which sort of suggests that your actual goal in replying to all of my posts with "troll" is just an attempt to illicit a negative response from me, which certainly isn't very nice of you. I might even cry.

In other words, "no u".

[John Epler]

If you find yourself unable to respond to a point with more than a single word 'troll', then perhaps refrain from posting. Why you'd think that kind of post is in any way acceptable is beyond me.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Look I understand that people want to dress their companions up in mismatched clown armor and that's fine, but Bioware thinks companions should be unique as possible, So if that means more alternate outfits to pick from that's perfectly fine. I mean after all that stats will be carried over and that should be whats most important.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
As for the supposed weakness of my point, the statistical profile should be at least as important to the designers as the appearance is, if they're concerned about telling a story with the companions.  And yet they seem willing to abandon the statistical side, even though that's the part that affects behaviour.

That they're willing to move on the statistics, I think, undercuts their defence of unique appearances.

Given how Bioware has treated the ruleset, I think it is more an indication that they do not see the ruleset and statistics as the rules of the world, like a PnP game would, but rather as the rules of a game independent from the world, as a JRPG would.

[In Exile]

vania z wrote...

I think poll clearly shows how split bioware's fanbase currently is. Opinion distribution looks like sum of two normal distributions.

That was actually my reason for conducting the poll, truth be told. I saw the VO thread results and the 50/50 split on VO and silent PC, and wondered if I could tease apart tastes more.

It certainly goes with what Bioware says publically, that the fanbase vis a vis DA2 is split down the middle.