491 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

Vicious wrote...

, when I'm playing MY game,

Better start learning how to design then.

Or I can just  decide not to buy the game.   

[Vicious]

Ah c'mon buddy, if you bought DA2 you'll certainly buy a DA3 which is a lot more similar to DA:O, which we all love.

So for both our sakes, I hope it is.

[TEWR]

Yrkoon wrote...

Tidra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Aveline, Merrill, Anders, Bethany, Carver, and Sebastian were wearing armor fit for battle.

Unless you expect all mages to wear armor into battle when they're primarily distance fighters. Merrill's romanced armor though is fit for close quarters and distance combat.

And the player still has a choice in what the companions wear. What's so hard to understand about that?

He apparently doesn't understand that it's typical for RPG behavior for certain classes to wear certain gear.

Oh indeed.  I forgot about that old RPG rule that states that mages must  be  barefoot.  Thieves can't wear pants, and archer rogues have to show their chest hair.

:::slaps forehead::: 

Bad Yrkoon.  Dumb Yrkoon.  Get with the program.

Your sarcasm does you no credit.

It's only the elves who don't wear shoes, which can easily be explained:  Dalish elves are close to nature and city elves are extremely poor.

Now should some of the elves who are better off than the rest of the ones in the Alienage wear shoes? Sure. But there are reasons why they don't wear shoes.

Dalish elves prefer not to, while city elves are unable to buy shoes. But not all elves are shoeless. Zevran wore shoes.

And IIRC, the Dalish do sell boots, which implies that some members of the clan do wear shoes.

[Sabariel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Tidra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Aveline, Merrill, Anders, Bethany, Carver, and Sebastian were wearing armor fit for battle.

Unless you expect all mages to wear armor into battle when they're primarily distance fighters. Merrill's romanced armor though is fit for close quarters and distance combat.

And the player still has a choice in what the companions wear. What's so hard to understand about that?

He apparently doesn't understand that it's typical for RPG behavior for certain classes to wear certain gear.

Oh indeed.  I forgot about that old RPG rule that states that mages must  be  barefoot.  Thieves can't wear pants, and archer rogues have to show their chest hair.

:::slaps forehead::: 

Bad Yrkoon.  Dumb Yrkoon.  Get with the program.

Your sarcasm does you no credit.

It's only the elves who don't wear shoes, which can easily be explained:  Dalish elves are close to nature and city elves are extremely poor.

Now should some of the elves who are better off than the rest of the ones in the Alienage wear shoes? Sure. But there are reasons why they don't wear shoes.

Dalish elves prefer not to, while city elves are unable to buy shoes. But not all elves are shoeless. Zevran wore shoes.

And IIRC, the Dalish do sell boots, which implies that some members of the clan do wear shoes.

Psh. The poor city elves could have made shoes out of burlap sacks and a hank of twine

And I do wonder why the Dalish would prefer not to wear shoes... what with Merrill constantly complaining about stepping in things and the ground being cold. I certainly wouldn't want to step in Halla poo. Shoes would fix that problem right up

[Yuqi]

I'm all for the new direction.

[FieryDove]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's only the elves who don't wear shoes, which can easily be explained:  Dalish elves are close to nature and city elves are extremely poor.

Now should some of the elves who are better off than the rest of the ones in the Alienage wear shoes? Sure. But there are reasons why they don't wear shoes.

Dalish elves prefer not to, while city elves are unable to buy shoes. But not all elves are shoeless. Zevran wore shoes.

And IIRC, the Dalish do sell boots, which implies that some members of the clan do wear shoes.

They said long ago the artists didn't want them to have shoes. Some do, Huon for example...Fenris really needed them what with the new wall/floor covering he liked to decorate with.

[willholt]

People please... PLEASE can we try not to get this thread locked, like what happened to the other one?

Can't we just keep it civil? rather than tearing into each other like rabid dogs, and getting an interesting thread, discussion,  and poll locked?

Please guys! <insert prayer smiley here>

[Maconbar]

FieryDove wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's only the elves who don't wear shoes, which can easily be explained:  Dalish elves are close to nature and city elves are extremely poor.

Now should some of the elves who are better off than the rest of the ones in the Alienage wear shoes? Sure. But there are reasons why they don't wear shoes.

Dalish elves prefer not to, while city elves are unable to buy shoes. But not all elves are shoeless. Zevran wore shoes.

And IIRC, the Dalish do sell boots, which implies that some members of the clan do wear shoes.

They said long ago the artists didn't want them to have shoes. Some do, Huon for example...Fenris really needed them what with the new wall/floor covering he liked to decorate with.

I think that the elves have learned the benefit of barefoot running.

[Serpieri Nei]

Sabariel wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Tidra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Aveline, Merrill, Anders, Bethany, Carver, and Sebastian were wearing armor fit for battle.

Unless you expect all mages to wear armor into battle when they're primarily distance fighters. Merrill's romanced armor though is fit for close quarters and distance combat.

And the player still has a choice in what the companions wear. What's so hard to understand about that?

He apparently doesn't understand that it's typical for RPG behavior for certain classes to wear certain gear.

Oh indeed.  I forgot about that old RPG rule that states that mages must  be  barefoot.  Thieves can't wear pants, and archer rogues have to show their chest hair.

:::slaps forehead::: 

Bad Yrkoon.  Dumb Yrkoon.  Get with the program.

Your sarcasm does you no credit.

It's only the elves who don't wear shoes, which can easily be explained:  Dalish elves are close to nature and city elves are extremely poor.

Now should some of the elves who are better off than the rest of the ones in the Alienage wear shoes? Sure. But there are reasons why they don't wear shoes.

Dalish elves prefer not to, while city elves are unable to buy shoes. But not all elves are shoeless. Zevran wore shoes.

And IIRC, the Dalish do sell boots, which implies that some members of the clan do wear shoes.

Psh. The poor city elves could have made shoes out of burlap sacks and a hank of twine

And I do wonder why the Dalish would prefer not to wear shoes... what with Merrill constantly complaining about stepping in things and the ground being cold. I certainly wouldn't want to step in Halla poo. Shoes would fix that problem right up

Guess - Bioware wanted the Dalish to be closer to nature - but the City elves abandoned the old ways - and going barefoot in a city is asking for all kinds of foot issues. 

[Sabariel]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Guess - Bioware wanted the Dalish to be closer to nature - but the City elves abandoned the old ways - and going barefoot in a city is asking for all kinds of foot issues. 

You can be close to nature without stepping in Halla poo all the time. I've always thought the concept of barefoot elves a bit silly, but that's just me

Modifié par Sabariel, 02 septembre 2011 - 01:29 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Sabariel wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Guess - Bioware wanted the Dalish to be closer to nature - but the City elves abandoned the old ways - and going barefoot in a city is asking for all kinds of foot issues. 

You can be close to nature without stepping in Halla poo all the time. I've always thought the concept of barefoot elves a bit silly, but that's just me

Oh I agree - cut and bruised feet - makes you an easy meal.

[Yrkoon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Your sarcasm does you no credit.

It's only the elves who don't wear shoes, which can easily be explained:  Dalish elves are close to nature and city elves are extremely poor.

Now should some of the elves who are better off than the rest of the ones in the Alienage wear shoes? Sure. But there are reasons why they don't wear shoes.

Dalish elves prefer not to, while city elves are unable to buy shoes. But not all elves are shoeless. Zevran wore shoes.

And IIRC, the Dalish do sell boots, which implies that some members of the clan do wear shoes.

Oh c'mon. You're better than this.  You know it was only one example, and not meant to portray the entire argument.

But lets walk through this.

We have one Character that can't wear shoes  (excuse me, 2 characters).  We've got another character   (Varric) straight out of a cheap Godfather ripoff, who wades into battle in an italian mobster outfit.  Another who doesn't wear pants (isabela).  Another who wears  a very normal every day attire  (Bethany) despite the fact that there's decent gear littered all over the place in this game that she COULD  be wearing instead.  Then we've got the other mage, Anders.  dressed alright, I suppose,  But again, nothing in his personality dictates that he'd look "wrong" wearing something else.  That's my party... and then some.   

But all of this is just peripheral.  I. do. not. understand. why. we can't choose to  change how they look if we want.  Completely.  No restrictions.  No caveats. 

The ONLY semi-valid argument I've heard in this entire multi-thread debate has been tech-based.  The devs can't  give us complete customization it because it would take a lot of effort  to create all the  unique armor meshes to match all the unique body shapes.  Effort that would cost a lot of money and take a lot of time.  And to that I say:     Boo-friggin-hoo.  Games are big business.  If a company wants to make $200 million-$300 million on a game title, they should probably understand that  this requires some sweating, some real, and sometimes unpleasant effort.  And we  fans, we who demand GOOD games with non-cut corners, shouldn't be encouraging and welcoming of RESTRICTIONS designed specifically to make games cheaper  and easier to pump out... like fast food at a drive thru.

Incidently, the companion gear issue is only the very tip of the iceberg here.  Go a bit deeper and you'll see the devs trying to argue that   one Warrior can't equip  a shield because it's not iconic.  Another can't dual-wield swords because it's not iconic.  etc. etc.    Where do we draw the line on these annoying LIMITS? 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 01:54 .

[Yrkoon]

Sabariel wrote...

And I do wonder why the Dalish would prefer not to wear shoes... what with Merrill constantly complaining about stepping in things and the ground being cold. I certainly wouldn't want to step in Halla poo. Shoes would fix that problem right up

Don't worry, the devs didn't have the time or resources to put halla in DA2.  problem solved.  lol

[skan5]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They'd rather have one size fits all armor and have every person have the same exact body type than have the people have different body shapes like the real world works.

People have different body types. The Origins system didn't allow for that, and yet that's what people want.

What if Varric has plate on his chest and you can just barely see his chest hair, has reinforced arm guards, and reinforced shoulder shoulder pad thingies? Or is that not still not enough?

Some people just want to equip their characters how they like AND see the equipment show up visually. Some want unique outfits and uniforms that seperate all the characters into their unique identities, while others may like developing a "uniform" of sorts where every character definitely look like they're a member of a group.

It's all in tastes, and there really is no reason why both systems can't be in place other than BioWare does not wish to look into coding it.

But I just wanted to throw out, the idea that it can only work with "one armor fits all" body types isn't true. There are games, such as Aion, which allow extensive changes to body figures (from shoulder size, waist size, leg size, arm size, yes - breast size, head size, etc.) and still have every armor in the game capable of morphing into the body shape correctly. There's no need to have an artist manually create any shape.

Again, the technology is not only out there, it has been applied in games. And having the option to see gear show up or to show only a designated outfit has been applied in a number of MMOs.

It's all just whether BioWare wants to actually code and create the systems, though I get the feeling that they do not.

[Marionetten]

Hate it as it completely breaks the visual continuity of the game. Put McBeefDude in plate and he's still running around in a thong because that's just how he rolls? No thanks. How about giving them unique outfits in addition to letting them equip custom armors designed specially for them like Morrigan and her robes? This is starting to smell like yet another rush job with band aid solutions to me.

BioWare keeps stating how important it is to show rather than tell only to implement this nonsense. If McBeefDude is in plate armor then show him wearing plate armor. It's not that hard if you take your time and make the game properly instead of rushing it out and further cementing your reputation as the McDonalds of the RPG industry. Do it over and do it properly. No to cheap band aid solutions.

Modifié par Marionetten, 02 septembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[Yrkoon]

Marionetten wrote...

Hate it as it completely breaks the rules of a game. Put McBeefDude in plate and he's still running around in a thong because that's just how he rolls? No thanks. How about giving them unique outfits in addition to letting them equip custom armors designed specially for them like Morrigan and her robes? This is starting to smell like yet another rush job with band aid solutions to me.

Because that's what it is.  Another attempt at a rush job.

They COULD do the Morrigan method you suggest, but that would require some effort...  15-20 more unique armor meshes to match  the different body shapes of 6-8 unique companions, add to that the fact that they're going to need to litter the game with dozens of different-looking armor, each  containing the meshes required to adapt to the unique body styles of the 6-8 unique companions.... and what you get is a game requiring effort and  time  to make.

But  since we're on shoe-string budgets and 2 year dev cycles, the above is a pipe dream.  So lets send Mike Laidlaw out to the forums to  pump out a sugar coated  "suggestion" and see if we can fool the masses into accepting some reconcilatory scraps cleverly worded  just vaguely enough to resemble  "customization".

In the end, we get DA2 with embelleshments.  Problem:  Da2 didn't need a bandaid.  it needed open heart surgery

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 02:09 .

[AL-istaria]

I don't mind iconic looks, but why can't a character have several iconic looks?

During DA:2 I just kept thinking about how much the NPC's clothes must stink after 7 years. Anybody messing with them would just drop dead from passing downwind.

[Yrkoon]

Me, I just kept thinking that maybe if I could equip Isabela in full leather armor and a decent helmit to block her face, she'd actually be able to enter the Qunari compound with me without  having to worry about being recognized by the Arishok and his men.

I'm only half serious btw.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 02:37 .

[Harid]

Yrkoon wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Your sarcasm does you no credit.

It's only the elves who don't wear shoes, which can easily be explained:  Dalish elves are close to nature and city elves are extremely poor.

Now should some of the elves who are better off than the rest of the ones in the Alienage wear shoes? Sure. But there are reasons why they don't wear shoes.

Dalish elves prefer not to, while city elves are unable to buy shoes. But not all elves are shoeless. Zevran wore shoes.

And IIRC, the Dalish do sell boots, which implies that some members of the clan do wear shoes.

Oh c'mon. You're better than this.  You know it was only one example, and not meant to portray the entire argument.

But lets walk through this.

We have one Character that can't wear shoes  (excuse me, 2 characters).  We've got another character   (Varric) straight out of a cheap Godfather ripoff, who wades into battle in an italian mobster outfit.  Another who doesn't wear pants (isabela).  Another who wears  a very normal every day attire  (Bethany) despite the fact that there's decent gear littered all over the place in this game that she COULD  be wearing instead.  Then we've got the other mage, Anders.  dressed alright, I suppose,  But again, nothing in his personality dictates that he'd look "wrong" wearing something else.  That's my party... and then some.   

But all of this is just peripheral.  I. do. not. understand. why. we can't choose to  change how they look if we want.  Completely.  No restrictions.  No caveats. 

The ONLY semi-valid argument I've heard in this entire multi-thread debate has been tech-based.  The devs can't  give us complete customization it because it would take a lot of effort  to create all the  unique armor meshes to match all the unique body shapes.  Effort that would cost a lot of money and take a lot of time.  And to that I say:     Boo-friggin-hoo.  Games are big business.  If a company wants to make $200 million-$300 million on a game title, they should probably understand that  this requires some sweating, some real, and sometimes unpleasant effort.  And we  fans, we who demand GOOD games with non-cut corners, shouldn't be encouraging and welcoming of RESTRICTIONS designed specifically to make games cheaper  and easier to pump out... like fast food at a drive thru.

Incidently, the companion gear issue is only the very tip of the iceberg here.  Go a bit deeper and you'll see the devs trying to argue that   one Warrior can't equip  a shield because it's not iconic.  Another can't dual-wield swords because it's not iconic.  etc. etc.    Where do we draw the line on these annoying LIMITS? 

Well said.  And I agree with all of this.  Their restrictions kept me from playing Warrior in this game, I hate two handed weapons other than the spear, and I like female tanks so I have no reason to sword and board.

Modifié par Harid, 02 septembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[TEWR]

Yrkoon wrote...

Oh c'mon. You're better than this.  You know it was only one example, and not meant to portray the entire argument.

But lets walk through this.

We have one Character that can't wear shoes  (excuse me, 2 characters).  We've got another character   (Varric) straight out of a cheap Godfather ripoff, who wades into battle in an italian mobster outfit. 

 okay that made me laugh. I'm now always going to think of Varric as the Don Vito Corleone of Thedas. 

Another who doesn't wear pants (isabela).  Another who wears  a very normal every day attire  (Bethany) despite the fact that there's decent gear littered all over the place in this game that she COULD  be wearing instead.  Then we've got the other mage, Anders.  dressed alright, I suppose,  But again, nothing in his personality dictates that he'd look "wrong" wearing something else.  That's my party... and then some.   

But all of this is just peripheral.  I. do. not. understand. why. we can't choose to  change how they look if we want.  Completely.  No restrictions.  No caveats. 

They do have different body types, which makes this different that Origins system. Theoretically I guess Bioware could make the characters have their own body types and make the armor fit their specific body type. I don't know if Bioware could do this in practice, as I'm not very tech savvy.

But if Bioware was able to do this, their iconic looks should:

1) scale with the character's level
2) have a few different stat boosts for builds of varying types

I think the current system of DAII has this in a way. But there's also the issue with the upgrades.

[*]Act 1: Inscribed Leather Harness (Apparel Shop, Lowtown) (Gives Varric an extra rune slot.)
[*]Act 2: Coat Lining with Concealed Pockets (Shady Merchandise, Docks. After you have been on the expedition to the deep roads) (+82 Attack)
[*]Act 2: Silverite-Reinforced Buckles (Personal quest Family Matter)
[*]Act 3: Drakeskin Leg Straps (Import bonus quest Finding Nathaniel)

 


Drakeskin leggings and silverite, along with Inscribed Leather. All three of those things are materials that were present in Origins to determine the strength of the armor.

Had the upgrades changed Varric's iconic look a little bit in the areas they apply to (legs for the leg straps and whatnot), there wouldn't be much of an issue now would there? He's wearing a tailored leather duster, and if you remember there were Duster Leather armors in DAO (with the same design as some other armor sadly).

Most rogues wear leather or studded leather into battle, which is effective enough. Varric is also wearing leather. 

This is common cowhide. It has cracks in a few places, but is still serviceable (from the description of leather armor)

Patched together from shoe leather, torn jerkins, and bits from old gloves, this is far from pretty, but it's fairly tough
(from the Duster Leather armor)

Now I guess I can see why Varric's chest hair would be an issue. It seems as if it has some sort of zipper or it can be pulled together. I may be wrong. Maybe Bioware should've had Varric pull the sides together in battle as a way to show he's protecting himself, and outside of battle he opens it up again. 

I don't know if this would've been possible to do though. 

The ONLY semi-valid argument I've heard in this entire multi-thread debate has been tech-based.  The devs can't  give us complete customization it because it would take a lot of effort  to create all the  unique armor meshes to match all the unique body shapes.  Effort that would cost a lot of money and take a lot of time.  And to that I say:     Boo-friggin-hoo.  Games are big business.  If a company wants to make $200 million-$300 million on a game title, they should probably understand that  this requires some sweating, some real, and sometimes unpleasant effort.  And we  fans, we who demand GOOD games with non-cut corners, shouldn't be encouraging and welcoming of RESTRICTIONS designed specifically to make games cheaper  and easier to pump out... like fast food at a drive thru.

Hmmm... I wish I had read your whole post before typing my above remark. I just hit quote as soon as I saw mafia Varric.

Thing is though, how many corners would they have to cut if they spent all their time doing this? They are given a limited budget and timeframe. This is true for most if not all game companies. Sure they could possibly request and acquire more time and more money, but they can only do that for so long.

Incidently, the companion gear issue is only the very tip of the iceberg here.  Go a bit deeper and you'll see the devs trying to argue that   one Warrior can't equip  a shield because it's not iconic.  Another can't dual-wield swords because it's not iconic.  etc. etc.    Where do we draw the line on these annoying LIMITS? 

....I do miss making S&S Rogues, Dual Wielding Warriors, Ranged Warriors, etc.

[TEWR]

Yrkoon wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

And I do wonder why the Dalish would prefer not to wear shoes... what with Merrill constantly complaining about stepping in things and the ground being cold. I certainly wouldn't want to step in Halla poo. Shoes would fix that problem right up

Don't worry, the devs didn't have the time or resources to put halla in DA2.  problem solved.  lol

You know I had the same exact thought some time ago .

But I do wonder if that was the case. Either way, it doesn't matter. The Halla dying was interesting. Don't know how they died though when the halla are the ones who pull the Aravels through the skies, so being cramped anywhere and facing sickness most things would face in those conditions wouldn't be an issue.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 septembre 2011 - 02:52 .

[Kilshrek]

Elves aren't as mean as humans, simple. Having boots means having the ability to put the boot in, a popular human past time. Elves probably just stab or shoot as appropriate.

[In Exile]

Yrkoon wrote...
Sounds to me like this specific gripe of yours has everything to do with the loot drops themselves, and absolutely nothing to do with  whether  or not customization is better than set iconic  gear (what we're discussing).

It certainly has a lot do with iconic looks. Because so far, the "ideal" compromise you talk about is DA:O with an iconic outfit for each character.

But  since these two issues arn't mutually exclusive, the plainly simple solution is to  Allow for complete companion customization, then create better drops.  Problem solved.

No, not "problem solved". Because "better drops" doesn't begin to cover the problem. Even if you somehow ensure that there is a level appropriate item in each dungeon at the pace of other loot, so that you can constantly keep the outfit updated (or just make it level up with your character) you still have a problem of the quality of the loot. 

And how many times do we have to point out that Aside from Avernus's Robes (which Morrigan can wear if she wants!) there ISN'T any armor in DA:O that helps blood magic anyway, so I don't understand that gripe.

1) Blood magic depends on CON. It is the blood mage mana pool. Items that pump CON (i.e. Reaper's Vestments) increase the mana pool of your blood mage. As well, since you cast from health, DMG resistance becomes important. Robes that increase armour (i.e. Reaper's Vestments) become great.

So just because you have some very narrow outlook on how to build a character for an RPG does not mean that this system is not brutally restrictive.

2) Saying that she can "just wear the robes" is really insulting. Because the whole point is that those of us who want iconic looks want Morrigain to keep her iconic apperance independent of the statistics. 

Saying we have a choice between losing the iconic apperance and having better gear is, is just patronizing. 

And it doesn't matter anyway.  Builds are made optimal in both games  by amulets, rings, Belts,  weapons and talents....

Exactly. So it's optional whether or not you actually will design any character but Aveline to be a tank. Does it bother you that everyone but Aveline doesn't look like a front-line fighter? Then don't design them that way! Problem solved. And this isn't patronizing at all, because it's absolutely the same solution you'd offer, but with a better system for those of us who like iconic looks. 

[In Exile]

Sabariel wrote...

I don't see why the companions' default looks can't be their iconic looks and then those who want to change the default iconic look can do so by slapping some iconic armors on their iconic companions and go traipsing off into the iconic sunset. For those who want to keep the default iconic looks... maybe make the default iconic look scale with level up? ...Iconic?

I have already explained how this screws players over, by limiting builds and potentially offering terrible loot drops at that.

[Sabariel]

In Exile wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I don't see why the companions' default looks can't be their iconic looks and then those who want to change the default iconic look can do so by slapping some iconic armors on their iconic companions and go traipsing off into the iconic sunset. For those who want to keep the default iconic looks... maybe make the default iconic look scale with level up? ...Iconic?

I have already explained how this screws players over, by limiting builds and potentially offering terrible loot drops at that.

The loot drops are already terrible. No real loss there