235 réponses à ce sujet

[The Sapien]

stonbw1 wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...

Sister Helen wrote...

Great. Another amazing game where I, once AGAIN, cannot play a girl.

I AM a girl. Is it too much to ask for game writers and developers to understand that girls want to play characters that look like them?

Hell and horsefeathers, I'd be willing to settle for an androgynous guy with a braid or long hair.

Hell sista, I'm a guy and I want to play a girl.

As a guy, I prefer females, too. I don't get why so many guys perfer guys.
ME and DA, always female for me. I think of myself as their guardian angel.
I don't like being that intimate with male characters, nor seeing their backside for hours upon hours.

THANK YOU!!  I'm finally glad I found another guy like myself.  I generally play with female characters; IMO they're more appealing and unique.  Now, back on topic . . ..

(quick hug)
woah, kewl?
yeah, we kewl.
(pretending hug didn't happen and going back to hugging girls)

[Paulinius]

ME's combat is better than most other games, but it is far from the best. I love Deus Ex 3, especially the multiple paths to solving a quest/mission. But the main thing that I love about ME is the story and the characters. I didn't care much about any character in Deus Ex, although I did like Malik and Pritchard; I didn't feel the same connection as with ME characters.

It's too late for any major changes to be made to ME3, but if there's a future game in the franchise, I would be extremely happy if they kept the great story-telling and character interaction/connection from ME and combine the stealth and multiple approaches from Deus Ex because, let's face it, ME is pretty linear except for what order you do missions.

Modifié par Paulinius, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:51 .

[azerSheppard]

Clonedzero wrote...

don-mika wrote...

DE:HR
+ Gameplay
- Story

ME3:
+ Story
- Gameplay

i thought the story in DE:HR was actually very well done.

You and me both, i said this before DE = scifi              ME = science fantasy

It's like bladerunner vs star wars
cult vs mainstream

The Sapien wrote...
How is character dev more complex in Deus Ex? I agree with most of what you said, but am baffled on this point. I'm guessing that you're not counting the option of choosing a class in ME before you build further, which is not fair, is it? And since it's all about complexity in combat, is it fair to ommit your ME campanions which you can also build? The combinations of how many ways to attack a situation in ME is no small number. I'm not saying ME is superior in this regard because I've only played DE up till the police station, so really am asking?

Char dev =/= Char progression:wizard:

Modifié par azerSheppard, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:56 .

[Jayce]

aridor1570 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

aridor1570 wrote...

The hell are you talking about? those decisions don't represent Paragon or Renegade, I did a full on paragon run destroying the heratics, and I didn't feel like it was the wrong desition.

Of course it represents renegade- it gives you renegade points! 

Bioware are telling you that it is a renegade thing to do- no matter why you actually do it. 

You've said that ME presents you with the right or wrong decisions, that's impossible since you've said the renegade on is the wrong one, while I, on a full paragon run chose the renegade choice because it felt like the best solution to the heratic problem.

And that's why he pointed it out. Your reason is a paragon one, but the game gave you renegade points. In other words, the game is ascribing completely different motivations to your character than you are.

[Jayce]

Sister Helen wrote...

Great. Another amazing game where I, once AGAIN, cannot play a girl.

I AM a girl. Is it too much to ask for game writers and developers to understand that girls want to play characters that look like them?

Hell and horsefeathers, I'd be willing to settle for an androgynous guy with a braid or long hair.

No, I don't think they should. Some stories would be far too watered down or become too incoherent  if the game in question allowed you to pick a character's gender. It's not always an issue but some stories benefit from having a predefined protagonist.

Besides, it's speaks to your level of maturity if you can play a character who is pretty far removed from yourself.

I had no problem playing Cate Archer. You shouldn't have a problem playing Adam Jensen.

[The Sapien]

azerSheppard wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

don-mika wrote...

DE:HR
+ Gameplay
- Story

ME3:
+ Story
- Gameplay

i thought the story in DE:HR was actually very well done.

You and me both, i said this before DE = scifi              ME = science fantasy

It's like bladerunner vs star wars
cult vs mainstream

The Sapien wrote...
How is character dev more complex in Deus Ex? I agree with most of what you said, but am baffled on this point. I'm guessing that you're not counting the option of choosing a class in ME before you build further, which is not fair, is it? And since it's all about complexity in combat, is it fair to ommit your ME campanions which you can also build? The combinations of how many ways to attack a situation in ME is no small number. I'm not saying ME is superior in this regard because I've only played DE up till the police station, so really am asking?

Char dev =/= Char progression:wizard:

You originally said character building and refered to the balance, so I thought you meant leveling up and how it works for combat. Sorry, I did mistype by saing character dev. But now I have no idea what you meant because none of the above fits. Did you also mistype?

[Cutlass Jack]

Jayce F wrote...

No, I don't think they should. Some stories would be far too watered down or become too incoherent  if the game in question allowed you to pick a character's gender. It's not always an issue but some stories benefit from having a predefined protagonist.

Besides, it's speaks to your level of maturity if you can play a character who is pretty far removed from yourself.

I had no problem playing Cate Archer. You shouldn't have a problem playing Adam Jensen.

Maturity? You really want to walk down that road?

Anyway I disagree with your disagreement. I want to play Cate Archer and Adam Jensen. More choices= more replay value. Besides it would be pretty hard to argue that DE:HR's story really required a male protaganist. They did almost nothing with the relationship that was already over when the story began.

[LPPrince]

You know what's easy to argue?

How much would have to be taken away to add a female gender for PC selection.

That's another model, twice the dialogue, more animations, different script/plot, etc etc.

The game didn't need it. Its not that type of game anyway. I never thought of the Deus Ex games as being the type of games that allow the customization of say a Mass Effect game.

[Jayce]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Jayce F wrote...

No, I don't think they should. Some stories would be far too watered down or become too incoherent  if the game in question allowed you to pick a character's gender. It's not always an issue but some stories benefit from having a predefined protagonist.

Besides, it's speaks to your level of maturity if you can play a character who is pretty far removed from yourself.

I had no problem playing Cate Archer. You shouldn't have a problem playing Adam Jensen.

Maturity? You really want to walk down that road?

 BSN is the last place to talk about maturity, but yes, people should be able to handle playing a character outside their comfort zone.

Anyway I disagree with your disagreement. I want to play Cate Archer and Adam Jensen. More choices= more replay value. Besides it would be pretty hard to argue that DE:HR's story really required a male protaganist. They did almost nothing with the relationship that was already over when the story began.

Except if you made both those those games have optional protagonists, you'd lose those protagonists. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Femshep fan and love seing female characters have strong roles but I'd hate to lose predefined characters in every game I play. DX:HR is a bad example but there are lots of charaters who would lose a lot of depth as a result due to the need to accomodate the changes and I'd hate to see that. 

[The Sapien]

Jayce F wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Jayce F wrote...

No, I don't think they should. Some stories would be far too watered down or become too incoherent  if the game in question allowed you to pick a character's gender. It's not always an issue but some stories benefit from having a predefined protagonist.

Besides, it's speaks to your level of maturity if you can play a character who is pretty far removed from yourself.

I had no problem playing Cate Archer. You shouldn't have a problem playing Adam Jensen.

Maturity? You really want to walk down that road?

 BSN is the last place to talk about maturity, but yes, people should be able to handle playing a character outside their comfort zone.

Anyway I disagree with your disagreement. I want to play Cate Archer and Adam Jensen. More choices= more replay value. Besides it would be pretty hard to argue that DE:HR's story really required a male protaganist. They did almost nothing with the relationship that was already over when the story began.

Except if you made both those those games have optional protagonists, you'd lose those protagonists. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Femshep fan and love seing female characters have strong roles but I'd hate to lose predefined characters in every game I play. DX:HR is a bad example but there are lots of charaters who would lose a lot of depth as a result due to the need to accomodate the changes and I'd hate to see that. 

Duke Nukem would be outside my comfort zone. Would that make me matore?

So what is choice all about then if not a custome experience? Might as well make it linear and force us all to like just one version of one person's favorite character in a game like DE where the dude talks like every other dude in dude games like Witcher2, TW2, and Batman.

[MrFob]

I am getting the new DX today (FINALLY) and reading here that gameplay in stealth missions feels like the early Splinter Cells absolutely makes my day!

As far as a comparison between the games is concerned, obviously I can only compare franchises (I just played through the first two DXs again), they have a very different focus IMO.
DX strongly entourages stealthy gameplay while ME has practically none of that. Also the differences in Settings and dialogue makes them apples and oranges for me.
In the end, I am just glad we have both franchises that coexist in this fashion and I personally would even wish for more RPG/Shooter hybrids with good story (a shame Alpha Protocol never made it to a series of games).

[AtreiyaN7]

Is it possible for us to, I don't know, enjoy both games without trying to turn them into clones that play exactly like each other? I enjoy each one for different reasons, DE for stealth and flexibility (in terms of choosing your route on the maps, etc. etc.), and ME for the story, combat and characters.

That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing an approach to the dialogue a la DE - it was interesting to me primarily because of the social augment and the fact that your results could vary even when using the same dialogue options. I think ME is doing enough with restoring more RPG elements as far as powers go and how you can distribute points (along with the weapon modding). I'm not overly concerned atm.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 02 septembre 2011 - 02:35 .

[Jayce]

The Sapien wrote...

Duke Nukem would be outside my comfort zone. Would that make me matore?

In a word, yes. (Even though it assumes only immature people play Duke Nukem...)

So what is choice all about then if not a custome experience?
Might as well make it linear and force us all to like just one version of one person's favorite character in a game like DE where the dude talks like every other dude in dude games like Witcher2, TW2, and Batman.

 
Choice is all about choices. But not every story needs to be about the plot or character doing what the player/audience wants them to or give them the outcome they desire.  [Hands up, Red Wedding Veterans!]

I love Oblivion for the freeform playstyle and the freedom to create just about any type of character I want. I enjoy CoD: Modern Warfare for the epically cheesy Clancyesc and ultra linear singleplayer story. So why can't the industry continue to make both styles? Not every game needs to be like Oblivion.

[TheKillerAngel]

-Though the game allows for stealth and combat, it clearly wants you to favor towards stealth - straight combat is an option, but it's almost always a stupid one

I'll disagree. You can do straight up combat and win, but you have to be smart about it. Play like an insurgent, not a tank. My first playthrough, 75% of the time, meant vanquishing my resistance.

Deus Ex HR is an excellent game, no doubt. It is the most thought provoking one I have ever played and definitely one of my all time favorites. But I still think Mass Effect 2 is better. Mass Effect 2 achieves what it seeks to achieve better than DX:HR does.

As a shooter, Mass Effect 2 has pretty polished combat. Deus Ex is alright as a shooter, but has some problems, a major one being ammo. Not until late game do you get plenty of ammunition - in the beginning through the middle, ammunition is often in short supply, which is only exacerbated by the lack of restocking when you start new missions.

The controls in DX: HR are also an occasional gripe for me. They give you a lot of control but at times are a little too much. For instance, to shoot out of cover, you have to lean with the keys. Wouldn't it have been enough to just use the zoom-aim key to do that? Mass Effect's controls are simple and perhaps even rudimentary but they generally allow you to do what you want.

The scale of maps in DX:HR is a blessing and a curse. Exploration is great but sometimes you really just want to get to a place rather than having to run the gauntlet several times.

[sympathy4saren]

I think what Human Revolution did was make people more aware...even though there have been many saying this for a while...of just how streamlined Mass Effect games have become.

There's no way the writing is there, but in pretty much every other way, DE:HR is a better game. The detail, the level design, the ability to play in multiple ways, the loot....these are core things I felt Mass Effect needed and I was told repeatedly that it 'wouldn't work' in ME or for ME. Why's that, though? Why is it perceived that ME needs to be a cover-based tps with narrow hallways? Can't it evolve? Take ME's universe and writing....give it level dimension design like DE:HR...the level of customization and loot like DE and a fairly efficient inventory. More to explore and more ways to play.

[Cutlass Jack]

Jayce F wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Maturity? You really want to walk down that road?

BSN is the last place to talk about maturity, but yes, people should be able to handle playing a character outside their comfort zone.

Except what I actually meant is insulting someone's maturity level for having a different play preference than you isn't terribly mature. Somone isn't a lesser ormore immature player for wanting to have more roleplaying options available to them in games.

Since the original Deus Ex did allow minor customization, and the second game did allow gender choices on top of that, its not unreasonable to wish those options built upon in later releases.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 02 septembre 2011 - 03:12 .

[sympathy4saren]

EJ107 wrote...

Well, the other person's thread was locked, probably due to the inflammatory title and offensive wording, but I felt that he had some good points, and that this deserves to be discussed properly. 

When Bioware made Mass Effect 2 they simplified many of the RPG features, focusing on improving the combat, but then Deus: Ex Human revolution comes out with not only a better cover-based combat system, but better RPG features as well.

It has a dialogue system that allows you to justify your actions however you want, while Mass Effect's always tells you whether or not what your doing is right or wrong. It also makes you think carefully about what you choose, and the conversations matter. 

The cover system is much better, and allows you to be stealthy as well as direct. The inventory isn't a pain like Mass Effect 1's, and gives you far more customisation and choices than ME2. 

You can upgrade yourself and your weapons to a far greater extent than Mass Effect 2.

It's popular and praised despite being fairly complex, and I think that it really has put Mass Effect to shame. Other than a few issues I had with it (The ending didn't have enough closure with certain characters, and you couldn't customise Adam and make him more your character) I'm really worried that Mass Effect 3 won't be half the game it is. 

Mass Effect 3 will have third person shooter combat in narrow hallways. Has this sunk in yet and caused worry?

[sevach]

The games are very different, Mass Effect is about direct combat, Deus ex is about multiple options.
You can either sneak or fight your way through.

For me personally? I have to say that, although it's nice to sneak every once in while... i'm a murderer , i'm not the kinda of guy who gets pacifist achievements, and Deus ex controls/weapons, getting in and out of cover, feel a bit clumsy sometimes, maybe i just need to get used to them, but that's my first day impression.



Regarding dialogue, the Mass Effect dialogue wheel was a great innovation a while ago, but now it is old school, and needs to be expanded to allow better roleplaying.
Good guy, bad guy, professional, plus 2 "press this to win" buttons just isn't enough, it's too black and white, it limits the possibilities too much imo.

I realize ME3 will stick (and it should stick to it really, for familiarity) with the old school wheel, but Bioware should really look to expand on it for future games.  

[MrFob]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Deus Ex HR is an excellent game, no doubt. It is the most thought provoking one I have ever played and definitely one of my all time favorites.

Sorry to cut in here but did you play the first DX?
As I said, I didn't play the new one yet but after finishing the first one (no matter which ending you chose), I always sat there through the credits and thought about how I just didn't really do the right thing. If Human Revolution can top that, than it really earns a great deal of respect.

Anyway, I think this is actually one of the biggest differences of the two franchises IMO: Mass Effect tries to go as much into morally gray areas as possible but in the final analysis it is an epic story with Shepard as the hero. The Deus Ex franchise on the other hand was always about a protagonist (be it JC, Alex or from what I already know also Adam) who has to realize that s/he cannot win without compromise. It is not an epic story but rather the opposite, a dark dystopic storyline (I am not a literature student so forgive for not knowing the exact terms here, hope you get the point anyway).
I like both of them in their own way and that (in combination with the related difference in setting) is why I have such hard time to compare the two franchises in a competitive way.

BTW, this distinction in Story is also somewhat reflected in play style (although probably not intentional but who knows). Shepard goes in as the hero, very openly. S/he has his/her enemies to fight and that what Shep does, even in the face of a vastly superior force. The DX characters have a harder time to fight openly and without compromise or stealth in order to achive their goals. They cannot afford (or because they cannot be sure about thei allies and enemies also don't want) to fight openly all the time.
I am probably over-analyzing here but still, I kinda like the idea.

[Jayce]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Jayce F wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Maturity? You really want to walk down that road?

BSN is the last place to talk about maturity, but yes, people should be able to handle playing a character outside their comfort zone.

Except what I actually meant is insulting someone's maturity level for having a different play preference than you isn't terribly mature. Somone isn't a lesser ormore immature player for wanting to have more roleplaying options available to them in games.

Where did I insult her maturity level? I said it took maturity for a person to play a character outside their regular comfort zone. If Sister finds that insulting, that's her call and if she does, she can cry me a river.

Since the original Deus Ex did allow minor customization, and the second game did allow gender choices on top of that, its not unreasonable to wish those options built upon in later releases.

Not it isn't, but that's not all she said.

[The Spamming Troll]

all i wanna know is where the hell can i buy like 500 rounds of combat rifle ammo in DX?

really, i only ever have like 17 bullets at all times with my gun. thats a big reason why im playing alot of this game in stealth. which kindof sucks becaseu my combat rifle is totally pimped out. instead im just using knocking out enemies with the 6 or 7 tranq darts i have and sneaking around.

whatever, im having alot of fun, even tho im not ever shooting anyone. its a weird feeling.

[TheKillerAngel]

MrFob wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Deus Ex HR is an excellent game, no doubt. It is the most thought provoking one I have ever played and definitely one of my all time favorites.

Sorry to cut in here but did you play the first DX?

No, unfortunately. I ought to.

[sedrikhcain]

Sister Helen wrote...

Oh, so a girl can't be the main character in a dark, dystopian future? I didn't realize that a uterus prevents you from using a gun. ... Go watch Johnny Mnenomic - the bodyguards, who were female, were the toughest badasses in the movie. Or have you forgotten Ripley from Aliens?

I'll agree with the concept that tough girls can't be protagonists in good games when I use something other than a finger to pull a trigger.

All very true, and I defeinitely understand that frustration, especially with the number of games I've played over the years where playing as (or even seeing) someone whose skin looked like mine was an impossibility. Women gamers are still in the position of having the ability to play as their own gender be a rarity. Men don't face that, so we should consider that before we talk about women being unreasonable for complaining about it.

However, my hope is that, rather than developers with male protagonists in mind having different plans thrust upon them, we will get more projects made available by women and other people who want to make female protagonists. That's more inclusive and better quality. Forcing something major on game developers who don't want to do it will just make for bad games, as is discussed on this site all the time.

[sedrikhcain]

Jayce F wrote...

Sister Helen wrote...

Great. Another amazing game where I, once AGAIN, cannot play a girl.

I AM a girl. Is it too much to ask for game writers and developers to understand that girls want to play characters that look like them?

Hell and horsefeathers, I'd be willing to settle for an androgynous guy with a braid or long hair.

No, I don't think they should. Some stories would be far too watered down or become too incoherent  if the game in question allowed you to pick a character's gender. It's not always an issue but some stories benefit from having a predefined protagonist.

Besides, it's speaks to your level of maturity if you can play a character who is pretty far removed from yourself.

I had no problem playing Cate Archer. You shouldn't have a problem playing Adam Jensen.

That really is a bunch of bologna. 99% of the games you want to play, as a man, give you that option. It's 180 degrees different if you are a woman. My approach to solving this issue differs from Sister Helen's but this high-handed "get over it" reaction to women gamers who complain about  their lack of representation doesn't make us men look good.

Modifié par sedrikhcain, 02 septembre 2011 - 03:49 .

[Rockworm503]

*sigh every time I come on here its a new thread about how great Dues is.. Trying to stay out of it until I give it a shot and actually reserve judgement but its Witcher 2 all over again. Nobody will shut up about is so my desire to play it goes out the window (not like there was much there to begin with).
Doesn't matter what I think either way these threads have nothing to do with Mass Effect so these shouldn't even be here. You can think Deus is much better all you want but this isn't to discuss that.