322 réponses à ce sujet

[Anarya]

Xewaka wrote...

devSin wrote...
Is it going to be a better game? It better be.

It's not that hard to make a game better than DA 2.
(Zing!)

And yet many people fail to do it.

[Cutlass Jack]

filetemo wrote...

At a social gathering, Marilyn Monroe and Albert Einstein crossed, she suggested the following to him:

"What do you think professor, we should get married and have a child together. Can you imagine a baby with my beauty and your intelligence? ".

Einstein replied very seriously:

"Unfortunately I fear that the experiment comes out the other way and end up with a child with my beauty and your intelligence."

I guess Einstein wasn't a genius after all. He should have instead discussed proving her theory using the scientific method.

[FedericoV]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the "bost of both worlds" approach is wrong. You have to make a clear decision and stick with it. You can make concession to other genres but that's all, and DA:O was allready the biggest concession to the action/cinematic/storydriven approach in the classic CRPG context. Probably, the biggest flaws of DAO were caused by those concessions. DA2 is allready a "best of both worlds" game and while I liked some of the features, the overall result was mediocre at best. I believe that if they follow the same route even DA3 will disappoint.

Another argument: the general premise of the DA's setting and DA's "experience" were conceived with a classic "party based" and d&dish game in mind. Not for a flashy and juvenile game with a cocky and actiony attitude. The whole concept of the DA franchise looks a little bit silly and out of place in the context of a more cinematic game like DA2. The point is: trying to make D&D (or its derivate) looks sexy is impossible... it's like trying to make Gabe Newell looks slim... everytime someone tries, the result looks like a silly japanese fantasy anime (yep, just like DA2).

So, my position is simple and in the last months I've come to a drastic conclusion: if you want to make an action/cinematic/arcadish fantasy CPRG, stop calling it DA, scrap everything and start anew with a clear franchise in mind and design goals that works well in that context (like, no party based combat and so on).

If you want to call it DA, you have to continue the process of returning to the roots of the golden CRPG era and its masterpiece BG2, trying to improove the DA:O's formula.

Stop to bastardize both genres improductively because it's a wasted effort. And even if I respect the dev team for all its work and its good intentions,  they are destined to fail and they will never reach the sweet spot they are talking about, because that spot does not exist. Because some matches works very well (like the shooter+CRPG+blockbuster estetic+Science fiction in ME2).  Other matches are not destined to work as well (like D&D+blockbuster estetic+action games).

It's not a question of fan groups, market share and so on. Experience shows that the quality of a game is the result of the clarity and of the tightness of the core design choices. And honestly, I see a lot of confusion around the DA franchise, like Bioware and EA does not know what to do with a classic CRPG game.

Modifié par FedericoV, 02 septembre 2011 - 08:22 .

[Reno_Tarshil]

I hope DA3 does what DA2 did and makes it better. It really doesn't matter what they do until they actually do something and announce it. Until that time comes I still have great faith in bioware and will continue to purchase their DA products.

[Xewaka]

Anarya wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

devSin wrote...
Is it going to be a better game? It better be.

It's not that hard to make a game better than DA 2.
(Zing!)

And yet many people fail to do it.

Guess I should have specified "for Bioware", seeing as it's their third worst title by measure of professional reviews.
Funny thing though, most of the stuff I see as bad design decisions for DA 2 (restricted companion configuration, spasmodic combat animations, dialogue presentation) would be positives for me in a theoretical JE 2.

[Dariuszp]

Hmmm... if you take sugar and add some sh**... will you eat it ? It contains best of both after all.

[Inutaisho7996]

simfamSP wrote...

We all know what the Bioware forumula is? Good. I don't have to post that picture then no? Well... just for those who don't.

rampantgames.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/bwcliches.png

There you go. Enjoy.

Now you can obviously see that Dragon age 2 completley threw that formula Bioware are so good with and tried something new.[/b

You hail from humble origins: Hawke lives in the small town of Lothering in hiding from the templars. Strongly fits.

A devistating battle sends your quiet life spinning out of balance: The darkspawn invade Lothering forcing you and your family to travel to Kirkwall as refugees. Strongly fits.

The attack lieaves you alone with two companions of magical and martial prowess: Your only two companions are Aveline (martial) and either Bethany (magical) or Carver (martial) while you fill the magical niche. Strongly fits warrior and rogue Hawkes. Loosly fits mage Hawke.

Undaunted by the attack, you recover [and] are swiftly invited into an elite order that places you in a position of power or authority over the rest of humanity: After a few years in Kirkwall, you go on an expedition that makes you rich enough to become a noble in Kirkwall. Loosly fits.

You discover that you must travel to four main locations in oder to save the world/galaxy: Hawke only travels around Kirkwall and its surrounding areas. Doesn't fit.

WIth your mission under way, your every effort is thwarted by and evil or sinister :organization; While in Kirkwall, Hawke's life is spent cleaning up after the templars' attempts at controlling mages. Loosley fits.

At some point, you fall asleep and there is a dream sequence: Hawkes traves into the Fade, the dream world of Dragon Age. Strongly fits.

[b]Further along in your journeys, you discover the ruins of a sprawling ancient civilization: The Deep Roads are filled with the ruins of an ancient civilization. Strongly fits.

Modifié par Inutaisho7996, 02 septembre 2011 - 08:55 .

[Anarya]

Xewaka wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

devSin wrote...
Is it going to be a better game? It better be.

It's not that hard to make a game better than DA 2.
(Zing!)

And yet many people fail to do it.

Guess I should have specified "for Bioware", seeing as it's their third worst title by measure of professional reviews.
Funny thing though, most of the stuff I see as bad design decisions for DA 2 (restricted companion configuration, spasmodic combat animations, dialogue presentation) would be positives for me in a theoretical JE 2.

Why is that? Is it the label RPG?

[Xewaka]

Anarya wrote...
Why is that? Is it the label RPG?

Expectations towards the franchise built upon the former title. I wouldn't have minded the fixed companion looks and lack of companion building options in Jade Empire 2 because the original already had that limitations, and the spirit monk was also limited to a handful of preset looks. Since the Spirit monk comes from a handful of preset, him having a set of fixed personalities byway of voice acting wouldn't have bothered me. And well, Wuxia is all about silly flips and flashy moves.
However, the first DA allowed us to tinker with the party members as much as the main character, something disallowed in DA 2. DA 2 didn't allow the degree of control over the main character DA:O allowed (the moment paraphrases made their appearance, all illusion of control over dialogue choice was lost). And the silly flips and flashy moves look outright stupid in DA 2. Yes, DA:O might have been a little too slow for effect, but there's a middle ground between "Excalibur exaggerated weight" and "Gravity is no concern" moving.

Modifié par Xewaka, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:37 .

[Anarya]

Xewaka wrote...

Anarya wrote...
Why is that? Is it the label RPG?

Expectations towards the franchise built upon the former title. I wouldn't have minded the fixed companion looks and lack of companion building options in Jade Empire 2 because the original already had that limitations, and the spirit monk was also limited to a handful of preset looks. Since the Spirit monk comes from a handful of preset, him having a set of fixed personalities byway of voice acting wouldn't have bothered me. And well, Wuxia is all about silly flips and flashy moves.
However, the first DA allowed us to tinker with the party members as much as the main character, something disallowed in DA 2. DA 2 didn't allow the degree of control over the main character DA:O allowed (the moment paraphrases made their appearance, all illusion of control over dialogue choice was lost). And the silly flips and flashy moves look outright stupid in DA 2. Yes, DA:O might have been a little too slow for effect, but there's a middle ground between "Excalibur exaggerated weight" and "Gravity is no concern" moving.

Okay, that makes sense but I find that sort of limiting from the developer's perspective. Although I guess it always boils down to what you think are the essential elements of a Dragon Age game. I don't consider any of those things defining features of DA so I don't mind changes to them. I like that they're always trying to change and improve and don't necessarily feel the need to keep things the same because the previous game did it that way, though I always hope it'll be a change for the better, of course.

And I partially disagree on the voice thing because I sort of have mixed feelings on that issue, but I wouldn't want to have to read a line and then have it read back to me once I picked it. I feel like if they're going to have a voiced PC, they need the paraphrases. Whether the PC needs to be voiced in the first place is a whole different issue that I'm not 100% decided on.

[Uccio]

Mike Smith wrote...

If all they do is give DA2 a facelift, expect a considerable number of fans to spend their $60 on something else. A lot of people want a near equal split in features or greater in favor of DAO. I just want to forget about DA2.

Hear hear. My money stays in my wallet until I see some reviews from the game. DA2 was too much of a shock to me.

[Xewaka]

Anarya wrote...
Okay, that makes sense but I find that sort of limiting from the developer's perspective. Although I guess it always boils down to what you think are the essential elements of a Dragon Age game. I don't consider any of those things defining features of DA so I don't mind changes to them. I like that they're always trying to change and improve and don't necessarily feel the need to keep things the same because the previous game did it that way, though I always hope it'll be a change for the better, of course.

There will always be a disagreement on what constitutes changes for the better. For example, Heroes of Might and Magic 4 changed a great deal of mechanics from its predeccessor, and while many people seemed to dislike it (and to this day, the consensus seems to be that 3 was the best of the series) I loved how the changes altered the gameplay and allowed for new and interesting forms of combat and exploration.
I did not feel the same with the changes relating DA 2.

[Anarya]

Xewaka wrote...

Anarya wrote...
Okay, that makes sense but I find that sort of limiting from the developer's perspective. Although I guess it always boils down to what you think are the essential elements of a Dragon Age game. I don't consider any of those things defining features of DA so I don't mind changes to them. I like that they're always trying to change and improve and don't necessarily feel the need to keep things the same because the previous game did it that way, though I always hope it'll be a change for the better, of course.

There will always be a disagreement on what constitutes changes for the better. For example, Heroes of Might and Magic 4 changed a great deal of mechanics from its predeccessor, and while many people seemed to dislike it (and to this day, the consensus seems to be that 3 was the best of the series) I loved how the changes altered the gameplay and allowed for new and interesting forms of combat and exploration.
I did not feel the same with the changes relating DA 2.

You disliked all the changes across the board?

[Xewaka]

Anarya wrote...
You disliked all the changes across the board?

With a few exceptions (the new friendship/rivalry system and the tree presentation of the skills were improvements, to cite two). The average still totals negative.

Modifié par Xewaka, 02 septembre 2011 - 10:15 .

[dheer]

devSin wrote...
I think you may be hearing a bit more of what you want to hear than what is actually being said?

Sure, i'm making it all up.

Ray Muzyka said...
One of the core values of Bioware is that we take feedback really seriously, and we know that the core fans who were expecting more Dragon Age Origins – we have to respond to that – we’re not willing to ignore that, we’re going to take that head on.

That does't sound like they're going to just gloss over DA2.

devSin wrote...
"The style of DA1" is unfortunately meaningless.

Style was my addition. That's what they mean when they say people were expecting more Origins. More Origins-style gameplay.

Modifié par dheer, 02 septembre 2011 - 11:45 .

[Gunderic]

Anarya wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

devSin wrote...
Is it going to be a better game? It better be.

It's not that hard to make a game better than DA 2.
(Zing!)

And yet many people fail to do it.

Who exactly? Who fails to make a better RPG than DA 2? 

Modifié par Gunderic, 02 septembre 2011 - 03:41 .

[PinkShoes]

Vicious wrote...

l bioware games lack meaningful choice, the problem is that DA2 didn't even try to pretend otherwise.

Awesome post.

Mash the popular stuff from DA:O and the popular stuff from DA2 together and well, you've got one hell of a game provided you take your time crafting it.

thats what i and im sure most people are hoping for. Take the good form both ad creat something that does desvere the "9/10" rating that DA2 got.

[kingjezza]

I've already pretty much given up on DA3, at the very best it'll be a refined version of DA2 and I hate almost everything about DA2, I have little faith anything will change too much as I think most of DA2 is probably the direction Laidlaw and co want the franchise heading in, fair enough, it's their game but count me out.

Plenty of other games to play.

[Gunderic]

simfamSP wrote...
We'll see David Gaider working for Obsidian and Mike Laidlaw in jail for murdering Sylvius the mad... Sorry for the references to our local BSN forumite... I just thought it was funny (and to conclude, a smiley face to assure I say this with a light heart.)

Also, I don't think Obsidian is interested in... fringe token romances.

[tfive24]

FedericoV wrote...

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the "bost of both worlds" approach is wrong. You have to make a clear decision and stick with it. You can make concession to other genres but that's all, and DA:O was allready the biggest concession to the action/cinematic/storydriven approach in the classic CRPG context. Probably, the biggest flaws of DAO were caused by those concessions. DA2 is allready a "best of both worlds" game and while I liked some of the features, the overall result was mediocre at best. I believe that if they follow the same route even DA3 will disappoint.

Another argument: the general premise of the DA's setting and DA's "experience" were conceived with a classic "party based" and d&dish game in mind. Not for a flashy and juvenile game with a cocky and actiony attitude. The whole concept of the DA franchise looks a little bit silly and out of place in the context of a more cinematic game like DA2. The point is: trying to make D&D (or its derivate) looks sexy is impossible... it's like trying to make Gabe Newell looks slim... everytime someone tries, the result looks like a silly japanese fantasy anime (yep, just like DA2).

So, my position is simple and in the last months I've come to a drastic conclusion: if you want to make an action/cinematic/arcadish fantasy CPRG, stop calling it DA, scrap everything and start anew with a clear franchise in mind and design goals that works well in that context (like, no party based combat and so on).

If you want to call it DA, you have to continue the process of returning to the roots of the golden CRPG era and its masterpiece BG2, trying to improove the DA:O's formula.

Stop to bastardize both genres improductively because it's a wasted effort. And even if I respect the dev team for all its work and its good intentions,  they are destined to fail and they will never reach the sweet spot they are talking about, because that spot does not exist. Because some matches works very well (like the shooter+CRPG+blockbuster estetic+Science fiction in ME2).  Other matches are not destined to work as well (like D&D+blockbuster estetic+action games).

It's not a question of fan groups, market share and so on. Experience shows that the quality of a game is the result of the clarity and of the tightness of the core design choices. And honestly, I see a lot of confusion around the DA franchise, like Bioware and EA does not know what to do with a classic CRPG game.

Totally agree on your post, about best of both worlds apporach. They need to either decide about DO:A style or DA2 and takea stance. They are trying to please 3 different groups:DOA gamers, DA2 gamers, and the all important new gamers to the franchise. Since i read quite of few of their interviews, they need to go and drop the DA;O gamers. That will include me in set of gamers, but they could really focus  DA3 on cinematic /action story based game they want to go in. Looking at the polls for the new game, they are spilit down the middle. There's no way you can bring both sides together. I don't want a VO or iconic look for DA3 will be a deal breaker for me.