322 réponses à ce sujet

[Mike3207]

tfive24 wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the "bost of both worlds" approach is wrong. You have to make a clear decision and stick with it. You can make concession to other genres but that's all, and DA:O was allready the biggest concession to the action/cinematic/storydriven approach in the classic CRPG context. Probably, the biggest flaws of DAO were caused by those concessions. DA2 is allready a "best of both worlds" game and while I liked some of the features, the overall result was mediocre at best. I believe that if they follow the same route even DA3 will disappoint.

Another argument: the general premise of the DA's setting and DA's "experience" were conceived with a classic "party based" and d&dish game in mind. Not for a flashy and juvenile game with a cocky and actiony attitude. The whole concept of the DA franchise looks a little bit silly and out of place in the context of a more cinematic game like DA2. The point is: trying to make D&D (or its derivate) looks sexy is impossible... it's like trying to make Gabe Newell looks slim... everytime someone tries, the result looks like a silly japanese fantasy anime (yep, just like DA2).

So, my position is simple and in the last months I've come to a drastic conclusion: if you want to make an action/cinematic/arcadish fantasy CPRG, stop calling it DA, scrap everything and start anew with a clear franchise in mind and design goals that works well in that context (like, no party based combat and so on).

If you want to call it DA, you have to continue the process of returning to the roots of the golden CRPG era and its masterpiece BG2, trying to improove the DA:O's formula.

Stop to bastardize both genres improductively because it's a wasted effort. And even if I respect the dev team for all its work and its good intentions,  they are destined to fail and they will never reach the sweet spot they are talking about, because that spot does not exist. Because some matches works very well (like the shooter+CRPG+blockbuster estetic+Science fiction in ME2).  Other matches are not destined to work as well (like D&D+blockbuster estetic+action games).

It's not a question of fan groups, market share and so on. Experience shows that the quality of a game is the result of the clarity and of the tightness of the core design choices. And honestly, I see a lot of confusion around the DA franchise, like Bioware and EA does not know what to do with a classic CRPG game.

Totally agree on your post, about best of both worlds apporach. They need to either decide about DO:A style or DA2 and takea stance. They are trying to please 3 different groups:DOA gamers, DA2 gamers, and the all important new gamers to the franchise. Since i read quite of few of their interviews, they need to go and drop the DA;O gamers. That will include me in set of gamers, but they could really focus  DA3 on cinematic /action story based game they want to go in. Looking at the polls for the new game, they are spilit down the middle. There's no way you can bring both sides together. I don't want a VO or iconic look for DA3 will be a deal breaker for me. 

There's no way things will turn out well for Bioware if they drop the DAO gamers-it's their core audience. It's all well and good to try and bring in new fans, but not at that expense.

[FedericoV]

simfamSP wrote...
I agree ENTIERLY I do. But it's something BioWare aren't going to go back on because those... gentlemen... at EA think other wise.

I know, but I must say that those gentleman and Bioware's doctors seem pretty confused about the future of the DA franchise. I mean, the only one who seems to know what he is doing with DA in the dev team is Gaider. You can like his work or not, but you cannot deny that it follows some rules gained trying to understand gaming and gamers.

On an unrelated note, those gentleman of EA should look PC sales charts on amazon.com. Accurate or not, the BG trilogy was ahead DA2 last time I checked. It is selling more copies. Now. 10 years later. BG: a game were nothing awesome has to happen when you push a button in your keyboard, because you have to gather your party before venturing forth...

So, while I get your point about EA and I could understand that the big names in Bioware are not interested in BG anymore and do not want to explore the reason of the enduring success and popularity of the Infinite Engine series, I don't get why EA and Bioware are not trying to fund a smaller dev team to develop a "medium tire" game that really goes back to the roots of the golden era of CRPG. There is a market for it, there is money to be made and good ideas and good gameplay costs way less than shiny graphics, high res textures and gory animations.

But what I'm trying to get across is that their first attempt was a failure due to the lack of knowledge they had. They themselves didn't know how we would react to such change. But now, with our feedback and our critism, they have a general idea of what to do.

Look, I was one of the optimistic about DA2. I was intrigued by the general idea and I see the reason behind it, but it failed. It has failed because the whole concept is flawed at the chore and it's never going to work. All the feedback in the world won't change that, especially considering that about every topic, the fanbase is polarized to the extreme and the middle way will not satisfy the reason behind the request of both camps.

Case in point, look at the post about items, customization and iconic look. The ones happy with the DA2 system are still happy but they will have a system with unnecessary complication to save the illusion of depth while the unhappy ones are still unhappy because the system is too similar to DA2. 

I admire the dev team for their dedication, but it's pointless, because we are talking of the breeding of two species that aren't going to produce an offspring. So, I'm sorry, I would like to share your optimism but I'm disillusioned about the future of the DA franchise. Off course, I would be glad to be wrong and I will continue to support them... but they should only thank the BG series because of it .

Modifié par FedericoV, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:52 .

[tfive24]

but they r trying to please 2 different bases, that's will lead to an unfilled game for both sides.

[Mike3207]

tfive24 wrote...

but they r trying to please 2 different bases, that's will lead to an unfilled game for both sides.

I'm not convinced yet DA3 wouldn't be able to meet the needs of both fanbases. In case you're right however, here's an idea- work on 2 separate games for the Dragon Age franchise- 1 for the DAO fans, and 1 for the DA2 style fans.

[FedericoV]

tfive24 wrote...

Totally agree on your post, about best of both worlds apporach. They need to either decide about DO:A style or DA2 and takea stance. They are trying to please 3 different groups:DOA gamers, DA2 gamers, and the all important new gamers to the franchise. Since i read quite of few of their interviews, they need to go and drop the DA;O gamers. That will include me in set of gamers, but they could really focus  DA3 on cinematic /action story based game they want to go in. Looking at the polls for the new game, they are spilit down the middle. There's no way you can bring both sides together. I don't want a VO or iconic look for DA3 will be a deal breaker for me. 

Honestly, if they really want to go onward with the DA2 route, they sould drop the DA setting/franchise entirely and start anew with something completely different (or, like someone has said before, trying to implement those view in the JE series).

As I've said in a previous post, the DA setting was crafted with love, attention and know-how but with the idea in mind of a D&Dish/Lotrish game experience. It's not suited for a different kind of approach toward RPGs. To make an example based on P&P CRPGs, it's like trying to set a Vampire TM gaming session in the Forgotten Realms. It would be akward and it's not going to work, unless you destroy all the foundation of your setting... like they are doing with the mage/templars civil war... but then, what's the point to build a sand castle just to throw it down a moment later?

[Atakuma]

tfive24 wrote...

but they r trying to please 2 different bases, that's will lead to an unfilled game for both sides.

I don't believe they are trying to please two bases. Bioware is only going to improve upon the DA2 formula, PR is simply paying lip service to the diehard origins fans.

[Wyndham711]

At this point I'm so disappointed by the franchise that I doubt it is possible to deepen my disappointment any further. I'm not sure whether that is a good thing or bad.

[Yrkoon]

FedericoV wrote...


Case in point, look at the post about items, customization and iconic look. The ones happy with the DA2 system are still happy but they will have a system with unnecessary complication to save the illusion of depth while the unhappy ones are still unhappy because the system is too similar to DA2. 

Indeed.

The poll about companion gear customization  reflects an almost 50/50  community split.  And the two threads  have a combined 60 pages of heated discussion, one of them was locked, the other is growing at a rate of about a page every 2 hours.....

And  this isn't  even  one of the bigger issues!

I shudder to think of how they're EVER going to find an even remote semblance of  community agreement on an issue  as major as, say... Combat.  My guess is they won't.  They're more likely to turn everyone off.

This is not good.  They need to define their visions and stick to them.  

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:58 .

[tfive24]

Mike Smith wrote...

tfive24 wrote...

but they r trying to please 2 different bases, that's will lead to an unfilled game for both sides.

I'm not convinced yet DA3 wouldn't be able to meet the needs of both fanbases. In case you're right however, here's an idea- work on 2 separate games for the Dragon Age franchise- 1 for the DAO fans, and 1 for the DA2 style fans.

That would confuse customers on the which game is which. Most importantly, neither one of the games would make enough money back to justify the cost of each game. 

[Rockpopple]

Yrkoon wrote...

I shutter to think of how they're EVER going to find an even remote semblance of  community agreement on an issue  as major as, say... Combat.  My guess is they won't.  They're more likely to turn everyone off.

This is not good.  They need to define their visions and stick to them.  

Quote of the day. Seriously. 100% agreed. You can't make a game through online consensus, not one like Dragon Age. BioWare needs to define their vision and stick to it. Sorry I stole your quote but there's literally no better way to say it.

[Complistic]

They were trying to blend the best of action games and Origins in DA2 and you saw where that got them.

[Atakuma]

Rockpopple wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

I shutter to think of how they're EVER going to find an even remote semblance of  community agreement on an issue  as major as, say... Combat.  My guess is they won't.  They're more likely to turn everyone off.

This is not good.  They need to define their visions and stick to them.  

Quote of the day. Seriously. 100% agreed. You can't make a game through online consensus, not one like Dragon Age. BioWare needs to define their vision and stick to it. Sorry I stole your quote but there's literally no better way to say it.

I think Bioware's vision is clearly defined. I think people are (as usual) reading way too much into simple PR speak.
I don't believe for a second that Bioware is actually trying a best of both worlds approach, they are going to do a best of DA2 approach and that just happens to mean a few DAO elements make a return.

[Yrkoon]

Then there's really nothing to debate. If Muzyka's comments are nothing but empty lip service (ie. lies) , then so be it. DA3 will be DA2 with some cosmetic-level embelleshments. Which means it probably won't sell very well.

[MorrigansLove]

Sorry, but I don't think Legacy was a success. Just because it "didn't have as many waves as DA2", and "didn't have as many repeated areas as DA2" doesn't mean it's a success. It's an improvement, yes, but not a success. The story, in my opinion, wasn't really all that compelling either so I'll be waiting for the new Dragon Age book to see if David Gaider has "still got it".

[bebop50]

DA2 didn't fail because the concept was bad it failed becaused they rushed it, Bioware isn't trying to please those DAO fans who want the series to go back to the orgins format there is no pleasing you without doing it, these changes are for those who liked DAO but felt DA2 took to much away. Those are the core fans they're doing this for.Bioware knows there going to lose some people but there not going backwards if you think they are you really will be disappointed.

[devSin]

Yrkoon wrote...

Then there's really nothing to debate. If Muzyka's comments are nothing but empty lip service (ie. lies) , then so be it. DA3 will be DA2 with some cosmetic-level embelleshments.

They're not "empty lip service". They're reality.

You're just reading a lot more into it than what's actually there if you think they're saying DA3 will be anything other than a refined DA2.

Modifié par devSin, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:28 .

[FieryDove]

I'll post this here since it's the path Bioware wants to go.

Mark Darrah basically says they want to make very fast paced interactive narratives that anyone can jump in and play. A tall order but there it is.
http://www.zam.com/s...559&storypage=3

As for what the future holds now after DA2's release who knows? Many did not like it at all, many disliked some changes, many loved it, and even more I think are in the *meh* camp. (The mostly quiet camp)

They have said here and in interviews DA2 is on the right track. They won't backtrack to appeal to fans of the older games no matter how much PR spin there is. They want everyone to be happy I'm sure but it doesn't seem possible.


 

Modifié par FieryDove, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:41 .

[tfive24]

simfamSP wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

Sorry, but I don't think Legacy was a success. Just because it "didn't have as many waves as DA2", and "didn't have as many repeated areas as DA2" doesn't mean it's a success. It's an improvement, yes, but not a success. The story, in my opinion, wasn't really all that compelling either so I'll be waiting for the new Dragon Age book to see if David Gaider has "still got it".

Seeing your past comments you really hate Bioware since the whole DA2 thing. Really, I think that your at the point that you just hate Bioware so much that even if they make the slightest attempt of improvement you'd hate them.

I'd take my advice and leave. Because you will be dissapointed.

TO ALL:

I very much doubt that we will ever have DA:O again. They can improve the DA2 formula with their knowledge as I've suggested. But other than that, for those who expect DA:O 2...

As I said to MorrigansLove. You will be dissapointed.

As i posted in another thread some time ago, people like myself who are angry at bioware for change to Dragon Age into what it is have to get over and move on to something else.  It's a harsh reality that I had to deal with when i read their reent interviews. I will see how Mass Effect 3 turns out, but I know that ME3 will probably be my last bioware game. It's just a sad truth some of us gamers have to come and realize. 

[willholt]

FieryDove wrote...

I'll post this here since it's the path Bioware wants to go.

Mark Darrah basically says they want to make very fast paced interactive narratives that anyone can jump in and play. A tall order but there it is.
http://www.zam.com/s...559&storypage=3

As for what the future holds now after DA2's release who knows? Many did not like it at all, many disliked some changes, many loved it, and even more I think are in the *meh* camp. (The mostly quiet camp)

They have said here and in interviews DA2 is on the right track. They won't backtrack to appeal to fans of the older games no matter how much PR spin there is. They want everyone to be happy I'm sure but it doesn't seem possible.


 

It isn't.

You just have to look at the polls for just TWO issues (voiced/nonvoiced & companion armour) to see a 50/50 split in the fanbase, and a yawning chasm in the middle.

I'm pretty sure that if you put up polls for other issues like 'origins' , 'combat' , 'dual weilds', 'specializations', 'art style', 'elves' ... and every other issue that people argue over, the result would still be 50/50 and a huge chasm.

Would that 50/50 split in the fanbase translate into 40-50% of the fanbase not buying DA3?... Who knows.

If it does, can Bioware afford to lose that big a chunk of it's present fanbase, and can they replace AND add to it by sticking to the DA2 formula?.... Who knows.

If they go down the DA2 refined road (most likely route) they stand to tick off all their Origins fans

If they return towards Origins (very unlikely) they stand to tick off all those who like/prefer DA2 and any new fans.

If they try a compromise they could end up ticking off everyone.

Not a good posistion to be in... but entirely of their own making IMO

[MorrigansLove]

I don't want another Origins. I want a compelling story and mesmerizing characters, just like Origins had.

[FedericoV]

Yrkoon wrote...

I shudder to think of how they're EVER going to find an even remote semblance of  community agreement on an issue  as major as, say... Combat.  My guess is they won't.  They're more likely to turn everyone off.

Yep. Combat and fixed/voiced protagonist are the biggest issue and they'll never reach a good compromise. And let's remember that DA:O was allready a big concession and a compromise to Bioware actual idea of consolle and storydriven/cinematic gaming. At the time of DA:O's development I was even a little bit disappointed because I expected something more "classic"... if you go any further, there are no more reason to mantain the whole idea of party based and class based chesslike combat.

On a positive note, just to avoid complete negativity, I want to say that the skill system is better in DA2 than DA:O. We can discuss about the implementation of it, but I think that DA2's class/skill system is deeper and that Peter Thomas is cool .