Ce sujet est fermé
Guest_simfamUP_*
MorrigansLove wrote...
I don't want another Origins. I want a compelling story and mesmerizing characters, just like Origins had.
bebop50 wrote...
DA2 didn't fail because the concept was bad it failed becaused they rushed it
And I get it. The point is that it's not going to work, even with all the time and budget of Diablo III.Bioware isn't trying to please those DAO fans who want the series to go back to the orgins format there is no pleasing you without doing it, these changes are for those who liked DAO but felt DA2 took to much away. Those are the core fans they're doing this for.Bioware knows there going to lose some people but there not going backwards if you think they are you really will be disappointed.
Modifié par FedericoV, 02 septembre 2011 - 08:46 .
Guest_simfamUP_*
FedericoV wrote...
bebop50 wrote...
DA2 didn't fail because the concept was bad it failed becaused they rushed it
But they charged us full price nonetheless so it's pointless to discuss the relative merits of the game in term of project and execution. Look at Valve or Blizzard: execution is everything and it is part of the flawed nature of DA2's mission, that only adds a little bit of arrogance to the mix. Like, "we're going to be the first developer who manages to mix succesfully party based RPGs and action games and we're going to make it in one year and a half with half the budget of DA:O". I imagine the faces in the first dev meeting...
Bioware isn't trying to please those DAO fans who want the series to go back to the orgins format there is no pleasing you without doing it, these changes are for those who liked DAO but felt DA2 took to much away. Those are the core fans they're doing this for.Bioware knows there going to lose some people but there not going backwards if you think they are you really will be disappointed.
And I get it. The point is that it's not going to work, even with all the time and budget of Diablo III.
FedericoV wrote...
Yrkoon wrote...
I shudder to think of how they're EVER going to find an even remote semblance of community agreement on an issue as major as, say... Combat. My guess is they won't. They're more likely to turn everyone off.
On a positive note, just to avoid complete negativity, I want to say that the skill system is better in DA2 than DA:O. We can discuss about the implementation of it, but I think that DA2's class/skill system is deeper and that Peter Thomas is cool.
Modifié par Mike Smith, 02 septembre 2011 - 08:53 .
Guest_simfamUP_*
simfamSP wrote...
And in my OP I clearly stated that there is a big chance that it can.
Modifié par FedericoV, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:17 .
What are you expecting as a response? BioWare knows what they are doing.simfamSP wrote...
I think we are abandoning the subject now. I would very much like for us to get back on track. A lot of you (not including FedericoV) seem to have skipped my entire post, and have just commented on the topics title.
Modifié par devSin, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:19 .
Mike Smith wrote...
FedericoV wrote...
Yrkoon wrote...
I shudder to think of how they're EVER going to find an even remote semblance of community agreement on an issue as major as, say... Combat. My guess is they won't. They're more likely to turn everyone off.
On a positive note, just to avoid complete negativity, I want to say that the skill system is better in DA2 than DA:O. We can discuss about the implementation of it, but I think that DA2's class/skill system is deeper and that Peter Thomas is cool
Unfortunately,we can't even agree on that. I didn't mind the skill trees, but I thought it was a terrible idea to dump the non-combat skills. i felt the loss of Persusasion most when I got a -115 approval drop when I refused to let Merrill keep the elven item in her 2nd personal quest.I agree about the negativity though-I've about been convinced to abandon Dragon Age altogether:(.
FedericoV wrote...
[On a positive note, just to avoid complete negativity, I want to say that the skill system is better in DA2 than DA:O. We can discuss about the implementation of it, but I think that DA2's class/skill system is deeper and that Peter Thomas is cool
To be honest, however, MorrigansLove is hardly a minority. He's part of a huge swath of gamers who are responsible for DA:O practically *doubling* DA2 in sales. Waving them off or basically throwing them under the bus is neither good debating, nor good business.simfamSP wrote...
TO ALL:
I very much doubt that we will ever have DA:O again. They can improve the DA2 formula with their knowledge as I've suggested. But other than that, for those who expect DA:O 2...
As I said to MorrigansLove. You will be dissapointed.
Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:42 .
Mike Smith wrote...
Unfortunately,we can't even agree on that. I didn't mind the skill trees, but I thought it was a terrible idea to dump the non-combat skills. i felt the loss of Persusasion most when I got a -115 approval drop when I refused to let Merrill keep the elven item in her 2nd personal quest.I agree about the negativity though-I've about been convinced to abandon Dragon Age altogether:(.
: non-combat skills are not dumped in DA2. Persuasion in DA2 is an invisible skill divided in 3 sub-skill: diplomacy, irony and aggression. The more you choose a certain kind of dialogue choice, the more your value in the sub-skill raises (and that makes sense), but you have to guess the value and it's not sure that each sub-skill will obtain a positive result with each NPC. So, it's a well crafted, deep,subtle and interesting system, way deeper than DA:O's persuasion system (that on the max level granted automatic success). It has a lot of potential if developed in a less forgiving way than DA2 and if the voice over flows more naturally between different options.
Modifié par FedericoV, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:47 .
Guest_simfamUP_*
FedericoV wrote...
simfamSP wrote...
And in my OP I clearly stated that there is a big chance that it can.
I respect your position and your OP is really interesting. Optimistic or realistic, I do agree that DA3 will be a refined DA2 too. No way around it. My counter to your point about the feedback factor is simple and I have the impression that you are not replying to it. If the nature a project is flawed, problematic and elusive to the point of ambivalence in itself, can feedback really make a difference? No amount of feedback will save a bridge from falling if the builder stick to a wrong plan.
I don't know, maybe thanks to feedback they will take their time and do not rush it blatantly. Maybe they will avoid excessive area recycle. Maybe they will avoid silly marketing spin like the awesome button thing. Maybe they will avoid to publish the consolle version without autoattack. Maybe they will act more humbly toward the genre and its fans.
But if they do not change their overall vision, will it improve the nature of the game experience for the player who have not liked DA2? You know, even DA2 was builded on the feedback of consolle players who were not happy with DA:O, there was an incredible amount of feedback even after DA:O if you were there at the time and (like it or not) the result has not been successfull and DA2 has sold less than DA:O.
Guest_simfamUP_*
Yrkoon wrote...
To be honest, however, MorrigansLove is hardly a minority. He's part of a huge swath of gamers who are responsible for DA:O basically *doubling* DA2 in sales. Waving them off or basically throwing them under the bus is neither good debating, nor good business.simfamSP wrote...
TO ALL:
I very much doubt that we will ever have DA:O again. They can improve the DA2 formula with their knowledge as I've suggested. But other than that, for those who expect DA:O 2...
As I said to MorrigansLove. You will be dissapointed.
Bioware can decide to act all 'cool' and pseudo-progessive, but it'd be a pyrric victory for them, at best, as they sit there and watch their DA franchise die a slow and painful death. When it really *doesn't* have to be. DA:O was a winning formula. It worked. It became Bioware's biggest selling game. And while it needed tweaking, it DIDN'T need the overhaul it got. It's really bad corporate decision making to do what Bioware did.
Look at the Elder Scrolls series. Its formula has been basically the same since... what... Arena? or Daggerfall? And by constantly tweaking, instead of doing massive, complete 180s, they've managed to keep their core player base, and consistantly increase its size with every release. Now we see the elderscrolls games outselling Bioware RPGs by an almost 2:1 margin.
Modifié par simfamSP, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:46 .
Modifié par MorrigansLove, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:36 .
Guest_simfamUP_*
FitScotGaymer wrote...
I wouldnt mind the whole best of both worlds thing if it wasnt for the fact that Dragon Age was originally created as the spiritual successor to the old school RPGs; it was meant purposefully to be a homage to those old D&D/Tolkien style fantasy worlds and games.
To change it now because they want to appeal to "wider audience" is self defeating IMO. DAO was their biggest selling game; outselling ME which IS their hybrid game. So there seems little point to it to me.
They already have ME which combines "the best of both worlds".
Dragon Age does best at what it is. RPG Fantasy.
Guest_simfamUP_*
MorrigansLove wrote...
Dragon Age 2's concept was good, I guess.
I still prefer a story which makes the player feel truly important and that without them the world would have little to no chance, though. Which Hawke failed to accomplish.
Guest_simfamUP_*
devSin wrote...
What are you expecting as a response? BioWare knows what they are doing.simfamSP wrote...
I think we are abandoning the subject now. I would very much like for us to get back on track. A lot of you (not including FedericoV) seem to have skipped my entire post, and have just commented on the topics title.
It may be more comfortable to you to think that DA2 turned out the way it did because they were "flying blind", but I very much doubt this is the case. They know exactly where they're going. They just didn't have enough time to get there.
DA3 will of course incorporate some of the feedback they've received (every game they release does). But they're not starting over with some "now we know what we're doing!" effort to make a "real" sequel this time. All they have now is a shorter distance to travel to reach their destination (DA2 was a flat tire, a chance to get out and stretch your legs, but they're still going to the same place).
Guest_simfamUP_*
Vicious wrote...
Bioware fans flipped a lid when they announced Mass Effect.
The hate for DA2 still isn't on that level. Or how maligned Oblivion generally is on Bethesdas own forums.
Hard to listen to the "fans" when they turn on you in an instant.
but end up playing and loving their games anyway.
simfamSP wrote...
MorrigansLove wrote...
Dragon Age 2's concept was good, I guess.
I still prefer a story which makes the player feel truly important and that without them the world would have little to no chance, though. Which Hawke failed to accomplish.
That's implementation MorrigansLove. They had a good idea going. Hawke could have been important, he could have made decisions. Hell he was the Champion no?
Stories like DA:O have been done to death, DA2 was a breath of fresh air for me. But Bioware didn't think when they were doing so. But hell, even our beloved David Gaider made a comment on 'time limits.'
Inon Zur and another I cannot name at the moment because I simply cannot remember. Time limits are not done by developers. They are done by publishers.
They would have needed a bloody magic potion in order to make something like that work in 18 months.
WHO HERE HAS READ THE ASTERIX COMICS? IF SO. CLEOPATRA COMES TO MIND
FieryDove wrote...
I'll post this here since it's the path Bioware wants to go.
Mark Darrah basically says they want to make very fast paced interactive narratives that anyone can jump in and play. A tall order but there it is.
http://www.zam.com/s...559&storypage=3
Guest_simfamUP_*
MorrigansLove wrote...
simfamSP wrote...
MorrigansLove wrote...
Dragon Age 2's concept was good, I guess.
I still prefer a story which makes the player feel truly important and that without them the world would have little to no chance, though. Which Hawke failed to accomplish.
That's implementation MorrigansLove. They had a good idea going. Hawke could have been important, he could have made decisions. Hell he was the Champion no?
Stories like DA:O have been done to death, DA2 was a breath of fresh air for me. But Bioware didn't think when they were doing so. But hell, even our beloved David Gaider made a comment on 'time limits.'
Inon Zur and another I cannot name at the moment because I simply cannot remember. Time limits are not done by developers. They are done by publishers.
They would have needed a bloody magic potion in order to make something like that work in 18 months.
WHO HERE HAS READ THE ASTERIX COMICS? IF SO. CLEOPATRA COMES TO MIND
It's just so silly how Bioware hyped how the player could become the Champion, and how it was the most significant role a man/woman could achieve!
When it came down to it, the game played exactly the same and the story didn't change in any way. I didn't see any admiration of the Champion that we hadn't seen before, and noone was even scared of the champion. He was still an errand boy by the end of the game. Implementation was Bioware's downfall here.
I'm sorry, I just find it hard to believe that Bioware can rectify their mistakes just from feedback. They had a winning formula with Origins, yet they changed it because they wanted something different. Something that ultimately failed. Origins sold much more than DA2, and is still selling more than DA2, and Bioware is still carrying on with the DA2 formula?
It's just all so silly.
much more positive in terms of community and socialising. (Damnit! Why is my super intelligent life saver disabled for the 'advanced option.')
simfamSP wrote...
Vicious wrote...
Bioware fans flipped a lid when they announced Mass Effect.
The hate for DA2 still isn't on that level. Or how maligned Oblivion generally is on Bethesdas own forums.
Hard to listen to the "fans" when they turn on you in an instant.
Oh but thats Bioware fans. They're never happy
But DA2 is a different matter. When Mass Effect was announced they knew it was going to be a 3rd person shooter blended into an RPG (which they've done really well with, for both games *hides!*)
But when you promise your core audience to go back to their roots and then completley screw them over with the sequel... You can understand. Even the people who liked the game like me see it's huge flaws.
Retour en haut