322 réponses à ce sujet

[erynnar]

And let me just say about sales, they aren't the only indicator of success, but they are part of success. And if DA2 sales had outsold DAO, then despite how I felt about DA2, I would have to say that DA2 was really the direction to success and greater sales and more fans for the DA franchise despite my feelings on DA2.

But sales, and the players reviews (10 and 0's aside), the polarization here (and on other forums, and the DLC making some big changes sorta point to the opposite. Again, DA3 will really tell all.

And I don't want DA to die. I like the world, I love the stories, the devs are very talented, the writers excellent. So, I would love it to have the success of DAO again.

[FedericoV]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

In a resprectful as i can possibly say this whats with the "If they want to make an action RPG they should have not done it with our franchise"
Just because you bought, played and loved Dragon Age Origins does not make it your franchise, give you the right to decide what the creator's do with it or be the sole deciders on which way the franchise goes.
Not that i want to be Condracending but :
It's Bioware's IP not "Yours" which means they can take it in any direction they see fit with or without your approval agree or diasgree thats the way things are but every gamer in the world is equally entitled to access a particular franchise and since as Origins fans have the upcoming skyrim game as a fallback posistion should you find yourselves unhappy with the way DA3 goes
its would be helpful if some of you would remember to think of game players as a whole and not just of yourselves

Just to clear things up: maybe I do not explain my point but Bioware can do what they want with the DA franchise. They can even make an erotic sim game settled in Thedas ("The nasty adventures of Oghren") and I would not complain. I'm not discussing the creative freedom of Bioware off course and I defended it with blood and tears during the development of DA2 and the first weeks after its publishing. I was called a fanboy more time than I could count. So, I'm just trying to talk about the possible outcome of BW's creative freedom in terms of the quality of the next game and its critical and economical success.

I'm saying that it would be better to drop the franchise because Thedas was created with a certain kind of gaming experience in mind. It's the classic D&Dish fantasy world: off course, it has his own personal spin and his own personality and it's generally more mature, believable, coherent and polished than the Forgotten Realms but it sits in the tradition of classic fantasy gaming nonetheless. It is perfect for your classical party based fantasy RPG like DA:O or BG. I'm quite sure that it is not adequate for the kind of cinematic and "sexy/gory" action experience they tried to develop in DA2. Quite the opposite, the result in DA2 looked silly and akward. So, I'm just saying that if Bioware wants to develop a game that it's more similar to Mass Effect, let's say Mass Effect with swords and a party meets Assassin Creed and Batman Arkham Asylum, maybe they should build a franchise around that concept and avoid forcing Thedas in that context.

Moreover, having to work in the DA context seems to compromise the devs vision. On every single detail, they are having difficulties trying to balance the original vision of the franchise, with the game they would really like to make right now. The result is an ambivalent gaming experience and a polarized fanbase. An impossible compromise between opposed paradigms. For example, if they want to make a game where companions have an iconic look that's set form the beginning to the end, it would be simpler and clearer to drop party customization instead of forcing it in convoluted ways. So, maybe, it would be simpler for them to start anew with a fresh concept they believed in, instead of forcing their vision in name of fan service.

Modifié par FedericoV, 04 septembre 2011 - 12:23 .

[Marionetten]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Witcher 2 didn't sell better than DA2.

I would hope not considering it was limited to a single platform versus three. The Witcher 2 did however outperform Dragon Age II on the PC market with Dragon Age II sitting at a measly 300.000 copies sold according to VGChartz. They give double the number for The Witcher 2. Give or take, the statistics are certainly not in Dragon Age II's favor. We'll see how the Xbox 360 version of The Witcher 2 fares later down the road.

Modifié par Marionetten, 04 septembre 2011 - 12:30 .

[jbrand2002uk]

I guess Bioware really did dig themselves in a hole by making a traditional RPG in Origins and then making the sequel a RPG/Action hybrid though i think the RPG genre itself is the biggest problem after 20+ years of RPGs pretty much being a case of "same old same old " players have become comfortable with the tried and tested and now worn thin formula that DAO uses along with many others,meaning that now when the big brands like EA want to shake up the whole Genre these same players get very angry at being dragged kicking and screaming out of their comfort zones making any future improvements very hard or impossible

[erynnar]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

erynnar wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

erynnar wrote...

And yet sales of DAO were and are better than DA2. And so is the BG series. And you may prefer to have no choice, which is fine ( I don't) but DA 2 gave you the illusion of choice and it nothing mattered. In DAO some choices may not have made a difference in the ending, but they did make a difference (even if temporary) in game, like the Werewolf quest.  It's fine that you and others who share your views on that don't mind. But belittling and being bossy and beligerent with those who prefer different, like me, does you no credit.

Using sales as a litmus test of success is foolish. Angry Birds has had over 300 million downloads, but their total in gross is still significantly less than the profit on Black Ops' 25 million in sales. You might as well try to measure the square footage of a room based on only its length.

Again, this arument not meant for this thread. And I don't use it as the litmus test, but it isn't something to disregard out right either. But apparently, EA or BioWare, or both are using sale of the millions of players fo those games like Black Ops and CoD to try and make RPGs for people who don't play RPGs. So, I agree, it is foolish to use them all by themselves.

If it isn't meant for this thread, then perhaps you shouldn't have brought it up.

I personally don't think that DA2 is a 180 from DAO like you said it was. It still shares most of the core gameplay, and even the same engine. The main loop of the game is still the same. It's just a change in direction, and lack of polish time. There's a clear difference between a game with core design decisions that run contrary to another game, and features that were simply not implemented well for whatever reason. Conflating the two would be foolish, IMO.

I didn't call it a 180, Mike Laidlaw did. Or more to the point, he said we aren't doing a 180 and going back to Origins  back in the DLC thread ( I think before Legacy came out).

And I just meant I wasn't trying to derail the thread. We could wind up getting it locked talking off topic about sales. I am happy to hop to another thread more appropriate to the topic.

Oops my apologies to Brock who posted the link.

Modifié par erynnar, 04 septembre 2011 - 12:41 .

[lobi]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

I guess Bioware really did dig themselves in a hole by making a traditional RPG in Origins and then making the sequel a RPG/Action hybrid though i think the RPG genre itself is the biggest problem after 20+ years of RPGs pretty much being a case of "same old same old " players have become comfortable with the tried and tested and now worn thin formula that DAO uses along with many others,meaning that now when the big brands like EA want to shake up the whole Genre these same players get very angry at being dragged kicking and screaming out of their comfort zones making any future improvements very hard or impossible

I have been reading your posts and have considered all you have said. You seem very cranky today and should go sit in a park for a little while. Drink some water and go to bed early tonight.

[erynnar]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Come on now, Dragon Age 2 borrows every bit as much from Mass Effect 2 as it does Origins, let’s not pretend. 180 sounds just about right to me.

Well in laymans terms your about right 
DAO was story 1st, Combat= now what do you want to go poke each other for thats silly
DA2 was combat 1st with a passable story 

Three disjointed stories you mean. Yes, all three were passable.

[erynnar]

Marionetten wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Witcher 2 didn't sell better than DA2.

I would hope not considering it was limited to a single platform versus three. The Witcher 2 did however outperform Dragon Age II on the PC market with Dragon Age II sitting at a measly 300.000 copies sold according to VGChartz. They give double the number for The Witcher 2. Give or take, the statistics are certainly not in Dragon Age II's favor. We'll see how the Xbox 360 version of The Witcher 2 fares later down the road.

I was going to say, TW2 hasn't come out for the console yet has it? I don't own a console except my Wii, so I don't pay attention to their news about it.  So, no TW2 couldn't outsell DA2 as a whole.  And I don't know what the sales on TW2 turned out to be on PC.

I do wonder how it will do on console.

[jbrand2002uk]

lobi wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

I guess Bioware really did dig themselves in a hole by making a traditional RPG in Origins and then making the sequel a RPG/Action hybrid though i think the RPG genre itself is the biggest problem after 20+ years of RPGs pretty much being a case of "same old same old " players have become comfortable with the tried and tested and now worn thin formula that DAO uses along with many others,meaning that now when the big brands like EA want to shake up the whole Genre these same players get very angry at being dragged kicking and screaming out of their comfort zones making any future improvements very hard or impossible

I have been reading your posts and have considered all you have said. You seem very cranky today and should go sit in a park for a little while. Drink some water and go to bed early tonight.

Well i can go 1 better with a bucket lots of strong coffee and some alka setzlers to undo 2 days of alcahol consumption followed by severel years of professional forum apoligizing while standing barefoot on broken glass
should just about do it maybe

[erynnar]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

lobi wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

I guess Bioware really did dig themselves in a hole by making a traditional RPG in Origins and then making the sequel a RPG/Action hybrid though i think the RPG genre itself is the biggest problem after 20+ years of RPGs pretty much being a case of "same old same old " players have become comfortable with the tried and tested and now worn thin formula that DAO uses along with many others,meaning that now when the big brands like EA want to shake up the whole Genre these same players get very angry at being dragged kicking and screaming out of their comfort zones making any future improvements very hard or impossible

I have been reading your posts and have considered all you have said. You seem very cranky today and should go sit in a park for a little while. Drink some water and go to bed early tonight.

Well i can go 1 better with a bucket lots of strong coffee and some alka setzlers to undo 2 days of alcahol consumption followed by severel years of professional forum apoligizing while standing barefoot on broken glass
should just about do it maybe

Okay, ouch, and please don't! Despite the alcholic posting, I like you. so no barefoot on broken glass stuff. And I hope you won't mind if I imbibe?

[FedericoV]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

I guess Bioware really did dig themselves in a hole by making a traditional RPG in Origins and then making the sequel a RPG/Action hybrid though i think the RPG genre itself is the biggest problem after 20+ years of RPGs pretty much being a case of "same old same old "

I think that you are wrong. The RPG genre has changed a lot during the years and it's maybe the genre who has reinvented itself more times during the shot history of videogaming. Try to play Ultima 3 where for example you had to draw manually the map of each dungeoun and then play some contemporary RPG. And then come back and talk me again of "same old".

Players have become comfortable with the tried and tested and now worn thin formula that DAO uses along with many others,meaning that now when the big brands like EA want to shake up the whole Genre these same players get very angry at being dragged kicking and screaming out of their comfort zones making any future improvements very hard or impossible

The only confort zone of RPG players are good games. The general reception of  ME2 has been good becase it's a good game and a great concept. The reception of DA2 has been bad because it's a bad game with a flawed concept.

Modifié par FedericoV, 04 septembre 2011 - 01:00 .

[Anomaly-]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

I guess Bioware really did dig themselves in a hole by making a traditional RPG in Origins and then making the sequel a RPG/Action hybrid though i think the RPG genre itself is the biggest problem after 20+ years of RPGs pretty much being a case of "same old same old " players have become comfortable with the tried and tested and now worn thin formula that DAO uses along with many others,meaning that now when the big brands like EA want to shake up the whole Genre these same players get very angry at being dragged kicking and screaming out of their comfort zones making any future improvements very hard or impossible

I could abide future improvements just fine if they were actually improvements. For me, DA:O had a nice balance of tried and true mechanics, as well as it's own style. All DA2 really tried to do was make a more cinematic action game ala the more recent Final Fantasies, Bayonetta and Mass Effect, all the while doing a poor job and skimping on many of the things that made Origins as good as it was. I didn't see anything improved, nor innovative.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 04 septembre 2011 - 01:11 .

[jbrand2002uk]

I stand corrected well i would if i could actually stand but hey its the thought that counts right?
but lets just hope that DA3 doesnt go into a 12 year limbo like Duke Nukem did
and no worries erynnar the the broken glass is out of the window( well the one i took it from lol) and in the bin, or was that the bucket errrr oh phew it was the bin and not the bucket that was close.

[lobi]

One thing that restricts Devs from making a full RPG with current tech and voice acting is that it would mean multiple disks for the xbox which xboxers hate. The percieved need for 'known' actors to do the voices is also blowing out costs. Once there is a decent toolkit and studio in place the costs to develop are inflated by many personnel filling roles non essential , because media tradition say they are necessary. Game devs use the formula they have been taught in media study courses where the word 'film' has been replaced with 'game'. Interactive movies including game elements is fine, until they remove too many of the gaming elements. Those that buy the game pay the bills for Devs and shareholders alike. Alcohol is poison in large amounts, please take care.

Modifié par lobi, 04 septembre 2011 - 01:17 .

[erynnar]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

I stand corrected well i would if i could actually stand but hey its the thought that counts right?
but lets just hope that DA3 doesnt go into a 12 year limbo like Duke Nukem did
and no worries erynnar the the broken glass is out of the window( well the one i took it from lol) and in the bin, or was that the bucket errrr oh phew it was the bin and not the bucket that was close.

ROFL! Well good! Having just sliced my finger with a knife while washing it, I am a little on the squimish side where sharp things are concerned.

While I do want DA3 to have more dev time so it comes out polished, I don't want it to go into a 12 year hole either. ROFL!

[jbrand2002uk]

what if for the xbox and ps3 versions content/files on the other discs where transfered to the hard drive like ballad of gay tony for GTA4 since most of these consoles come with 200GB+ hard drives as standard ?

[MerinTB]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...
Brockololly
The reason i was saying sales figures are no longer an accurate way to judge success anymore is because if you take The Witcher 2 for example which sold better than DA2 and is generally liked by all

The Witcher 2 didn't sell better than DA2.

Wow, let's try platform vs. platform.

And before you trash vgchartz, using that site to measure both games means we are using the same metrics.  If those metrics are "flawed" they will be flawed in the same way and can still be used to fairly accurately compare the two.

So - http://gamrreview.vg.../dragon-age-ii/  vs. http://gamrreview.vg...ssins-of-kings/

At 15 weeks:  DA2 =  @280,070   |  TW2 = @605,465

Yeah, no comparison there.

Now with other platforms DA2 wins... so, in effect, DA2 sold more.  But TW2 sold way more PC copies. *shrug*  Depends on how you want to measure that.

But try, at least, to compare apples to apples.

[lobi]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

what if for the xbox and ps3 versions content/files on the other discs where transfered to the hard drive like ballad of gay tony for GTA4 since most of these consoles come with 200GB+ hard drives as standard ?

How many familys of five have more than one Xbox? Or even current gen? 200 gb is not much, esp with all the current games.

Modifié par lobi, 04 septembre 2011 - 01:26 .

[jbrand2002uk]

true but only the additional files not on disc1 would be on the hard drive so you would still insert dis1 1 to play the game so the additional files wouldnt take up more than say 3gb

[Yrkoon]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

DAO only needed tweeking ? puleeeease why i would only give DA2 a 6 out of 10 at best it at least showed how stale and static the RPG genre has become in this day and age 20 yrs of the same old same old simply wont cut it anymore 

20 years of the 'same old same old' seems to be  working just fine  for, say,  shooters.

Perhaps you're just not an RPG fan?  I don't  mean this as a verbal swipe.  There's nothing wrong with disliking a genre.    But Genres  are defined by their core  unchangeable  features (which you call stale )...   If you change/remove those features in a given game, you change that game's  genre.

  For example,  Firearms  and first person viewpoints are features  of all first person shooters.    Been that way for 20 years.  20 friggin years.  Time for a change, right?  Well no,   because as stale and obnoxiously cliche as *I* think running around  on a battle field in a bodiless toon   pumping bullets at everything that moves is, if someone were to   remove those 'stale qualities" in the game they're making,   it would no longer be a first person shooter.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 septembre 2011 - 02:23 .

[Yuqi]

Maybe I didn't quite make my comparision to DW clear. If they strip more mechanics out of the combat,your going to get something similar to DW.

DW has interesting fleshed out Characters, so does DA 2.
DW Fast Action Combat, so does DA 2.
Good Story, so does DW7.
Waves o f enimies, so does DA2.

If they make DA too accssesable, your going to end up with something as simple as DW. They have to draw the line,somewhere.

I like the Combat in DA2, as its a good mixture of what I like. However, if they proceed further with the action combat, it will feel too much like DW. Fable 3 is a good example.

I myself, am a Fan of the DW Series.  It's good at what it is,and I don't have to worry about 180 changes. But with DA I like the fact I have to think about battles, Id ont need another 'dont have to think' action game.

 -----

I belive Bioware can pull it off, after seeing legacy. Count me in the optimistic camp. 

Modifié par Yuqi, 04 septembre 2011 - 10:41 .