262 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

csfteeeer wrote...

No that is not an explanation, that's a cop out from the Writers.
How can "god helped me" be an explanation?

My view is that the writers just wanted her back (for no reason because she doesn't do anything), and they didn't know how to explain it, and just went for this.
They simply retconned it, i think, they have already retconned plenty of things from Origins (namely the characters and the warden's situation), so what's stopping with this.
maybe they have actually come up with something by now, but i doubt they will focus on this any longer than they need.

Why shouldn't it be an explanation in a fantasy universe? If the Maker should be real he can do whatever he wants. He is a god, after all.

And why should they revive her just because they want too? Without having a plan for her that would be just stupid. If they're angering fans with reviving her, I'm pretty sure that they're not doing it without a reason. Gaider already stated that much. We will just have to wait and the what the reason was. We can still scream "asspull" after that

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 02 septembre 2011 - 05:26 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@csfteeeer - I'm not excusing the writers for every confusing or frustrating detail, but it seems as though players slap the "retcon" descriptor on plot elements a bit too hastily. I'm not party to what goes on during dev mtgs, so it's possible that Leliana was always meant to live. Who's to say? And why couldn't there be divine intervention? We already suspend disbelief regarding spirits, demons, Rotten Twinkie City, the use of magic, etc.

[Mr.House]

The writers have a story for Leli Gaider has already comfired that and it's already been stated we will see her again sooner then we think, stop acting like a baby throwing tantrums csfteeer and wait.

Also nothing was retcon for me at all

[csfteeeer]

[quote]jlb524 wrote...

[quote]csfteeeer wrote...

No that is not an explanation, that's a cop out from the Writers.
How can "god helped me" be an explanation?

[quote]

A better question is, why should she go into an explanation for a complete stanger?
[/quote]

well yes, but my point wasn't that she should explain it, rather than "God Helped me" wasn't a good enough explanation

[quote]csfteeeer wrote...
My view is that the writers just wanted her back (for no reason because she doesn't do anything), and they didn't know how to explain it, and just went for this.

[quote]

I don't think that's a bad thing....they've done things like this before (Baldur's Gate 2) with no explanation given at all.

[/quote]

Yes, i remember (For those who don't know, in BG1 you could kill Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, among others, from your party, and in BG2, they come back alive and well, as companions again btw), but just because it has been done, doesn't make it any less bad

[quote]csfteeeer wrote...
They simply retconned it, i think, they have already retconned plenty of things from Origins (namely the characters and the warden's situation), so what's stopping with this.
[/quote]

I don't know...nothing from my pt felt retconned.  What are you referring to, exactly?

[/quote]

i'm referring to the Warden's fate, as in many of the epilogues in DAO and Awakening stated that the GW went off into the sunset, OR, went off through the fade with Morrigan, but in DA2, none of this is acknowledged, and it states that the warden is in Denerim by Year 7 in DA2, and then disappeared, sure the warden could have come back after, but this isn't something that should be left in the air, IMO.

Modifié par csfteeeer, 02 septembre 2011 - 05:37 .

[jlb524]

csfteeeer wrote...
well yes, but my point wasn't that she should explain it, rather than "God Helped me" wasn't a good enough explanation

No, it was a dismissive explanation given to a stranger.  I still don't see a problem.

csfteeeer wrote...

Yes, i remember (For those who don't know, in BG1 you could kill Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, among others, from your party, and in BG2, they come back alive and well, as companions again btw), but just because it has been done, doesn't make it any less bad

In that instance, no explanation was given...we've heard that there will be an explanation given for this, though.  So, I'm going to wait for that before I make any judgements.

csfteeeer wrote...
i'm referring to the Warden's fate, as in many of the epilogues in DAO and Awakening stated that the GW went off into the sunset, OR, went off through the fade with Morrigan, but in DA2, none of this is acknowledged, and it states that the warden is in Denerim by Year 7 in DA2, and then disappeared.

My epilogue said the Warden traveled with Leliana in Denerim for some time and then 'went off into the sunset'....I don't see why she can't turn up in Denerim by Year 7.

I interpreted the 'sunset' thing as her staying out of the public eye for a bit.

[csfteeeer]

jlb524 wrote...

No, it was a dismissive explanation given to a stranger.  I still don't see a problem.

There is no problem, i'm just saying that that wasn't a good explanation

In that instance, no explanation was given...we've heard that there will be an explanation given for this, though.  So, I'm going to wait for that before I make any judgements.

Oh, i didn't know this, thank you.
i hope there is a good explanation.

My epilogue said the Warden traveled with Leliana in Denerim for some time and then 'went off into the sunset'....I don't see why she can't turn up in Denerim by Year 7.

I interpreted the 'sunset' thing as her staying out of the public eye for a bit.

i don't see the problem too, but, IMO, i don't think this should be left in the air.

And there is still the possibilty of Going off with Morrigan.

[Sinaxi]

csfteeeer wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
If Leliana is killed then she can be as badass as you like, but seeing her back without an explanation is odd to say the least. Then BW adds fuel to the fire fire by declaring that "it will be explained in the future" *after* they are confronted with that. That doesn't sound believable to me. As a fan of the series and hoping that DA3 will be even better than both previous titles I hope BW doesn't repeat such disputable actions.

She does tell Hawke (who even says "I heard you were dead!") that the Maker wasn't going to let her go in the Exiled Prince DLC.  I guess if you don't have the DLC and just see her at the end... well then I can see why it's easy to get confused, but there is an explanation in the game and whether or not you think that's enough well, that's your decision.

No that is not an explanation, that's a cop out from the Writers.
How can "god helped me" be an explanation?

My view is that the writers just wanted her back (for no reason because she doesn't do anything), and they didn't know how to explain it, and just went for this.
They simply retconned it, i think, they have already retconned plenty of things from Origins (namely the characters and the warden's situation), so what's stopping with this.
maybe they have actually come up with something by now, but i doubt they will focus on this any longer than they need.

I guess that all has to do with whether or not you even believe the Maker actually sent her a "vision" in the first place. Even the Guardian in DA:O tells her she is a complete liar, and only doing it for attention. It could be argued he is just testing her own doubts, but he blatantly tells her this whereas he goes about "testing doubts" a rather different (and nicer) way for all the other companions. I think she probably believes it was a vision from the Maker, whether it actually was though or was instead just her choosing to interpret a dream in whatever way she saw fit...is a different story. I doubt she got an actual vision from the Maker though...who has turned his back on mankind etc etc...in many regards it just doesn't make sense. Regardless, the "Maker helped me" bit can be viewed as metaphoric/hyperbole...many religious people say such things, it doesn't mean she is literally serious about it. Oh, "It was the Maker's will.." "Oh, the Maker ended the Blight." "Oh, the Maker is super awesome and saved my dying kids." etc etc.

[Gunderic]

jlb524 wrote...


A better question is, why should she go into an explanation for a complete stanger?

Or "Why would the writers present Leliana in such a way that no precise answers about her re-appearance are given?" would be my choice.

[jlb524]

csfteeeer wrote...

i don't see the problem too, but, IMO, i don't think this should be left in the air.

And there is still the possibilty of Going off with Morrigan.

I believe we will hear more from the Warden in the future.  I'm not sure how much more info we will get, though.

I think they left things vague b/c 'the Warden' is quite varied with differing motivations, etc.

I'm not sure about the Morrigan thing...it could be a bug/boo boo or perhaps Morrigan has returned by then?  I don't think any dev has commented on it, afaik.

Gunderic wrote...
Or "Why would the writers present Leliana in
such a way that no precise answers about her re-appearance are given?"
would be my choice.

That's a good question...apparently they have plans for that in future content and didn't want to give too much away in DA2.

Modifié par jlb524, 02 septembre 2011 - 05:57 .

[Gunderic]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@csfteeeer - I'm not excusing the writers for every confusing or frustrating detail, but it seems as though players slap the "retcon" descriptor on plot elements a bit too hastily. I'm not party to what goes on during dev mtgs, so it's possible that Leliana was always meant to live. Who's to say? And why couldn't there be divine intervention? We already suspend disbelief regarding spirits, demons, Rotten Twinkie City, the use of magic, etc.

It's because the setting was presented as ambiguous as far as gods, divine interventions, etc. are concerned. So unless there's a more insightful turnabout than 'she's just going to live on and we won't be covering that anymore for now,' it's going to come off as a cheap ass pull to try to bring back an important character to the story.

imo making divine intervention 'real' would cause another series of raging questions without solving anything.

[Sad Dragon]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@csfteeeer - I'm not excusing the writers for every confusing or frustrating detail, but it seems as though players slap the "retcon" descriptor on plot elements a bit too hastily. I'm not party to what goes on during dev mtgs, so it's possible that Leliana was always meant to live. Who's to say? And why couldn't there be divine intervention? We already suspend disbelief regarding spirits, demons, Rotten Twinkie City, the use of magic, etc.

So either it's a retcon, implying that the writers messed up and wrote themselves into a corner with DAO, or it's a Deus Ex Machina, implying the writers are lazy and wanted to make the players choice -- while making DAO -- null and void and thus removing player agency from the equation?

Not sure how that is any better, tbh I much prefer to think it was a case of writing themselves into a corner then the alternative.

I do agree that the we as players might view something as a retcon when it was in fact planned from the start -- though a retcon might not always be a bad thing -- but isn't it the writers fault for making us think it is a retcon then? I mean as a storyteller you want to keep things from the audience, in part so they don't get overwhelmed with information and part to make sure that there is still something more for them to want to hear/read about or even to explore. If you keep to much away and make it look like something isn't a retcon isn't it still the storytellers fault for not giving us enough information. I mean at that point when people start to think that something is a retcon, you better be able to really convincingly prove that it isn't a retcon or it wont matter how much you have planned the details out ahead of time -- the audiance will still think it's a retcon and the illusion and immersion will be the things that pays for it.

NOTIC: Not implying that the writers at Bioware are lazy -- but I do think any storyteller that has to result to a Deus Ex Machina is a legit target for being called lazy.

-The Sad Dragon

[whykikyouwhy]

"Divine intervention" can imply much though. We've heard of the maker, old gods, forgotten ones, the elven pantheon, creators, the holy cheesewheel of Andraste...nothing yet that says there is one be-all-end-all deity. It could be a spirit that "saved" her, but she is personally defining it as the maker.

I really think it will all be fleshed out in time. They're not going to give it all away at once. It's like burlesque - sometimes you just need to sit back and enjoy the show.

[Zjarcal]

Filament wrote...

Hm... if unhardened Leliana romance ultimate sacrifice doesn't actually kill herself as implied, I wonder if that implies the US doesn't actually die. (or comes back, fist out of the ground)

Well, Awakening shows how much the US ending means... nothing.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:18 .

[Heidenreich]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My personal speculation is that while Leliana was not an "active" Seeker prior to Origin, that she was close to them and of course to the future (incompetent) Divine. and she has the Seeker amulet. In otherwords, an "inactive" Seeker agent.

Just speculation mind you.

This is why I <3 you so hard, KoP. It's also -exactly- what  I think. She lies to us about her story, so its safe to assume that she probably was already a seeker, but probably not an active one, or just one stationed in Ferelden so she can report the goings-on. Lothering is an in-between stop along the road, so they're apt to have a lot of different visitors full of information going back and forth between places like redcliff, the circle, and denerim. What better place for a spy?

Her joining of the Warden was because she felt the need to help, and has nothing to do with her being a Seeker. She just opts to not bother and tell the Warden this. Aka, its just lumped in on the "lieing about your past to keep your cover safe" pile.

[Gunderic]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

"Divine intervention" can imply much though. We've heard of the maker, old gods, forgotten ones, the elven pantheon, creators, the holy cheesewheel of Andraste...nothing yet that says there is one be-all-end-all deity. It could be a spirit that "saved" her, but she is personally defining it as the maker.

I really think it will all be fleshed out in time. They're not going to give it all away at once. It's like burlesque - sometimes you just need to sit back and enjoy the show.

that would still make divine intervention and deities real though.

and the spirit plot device was already used once, so... doubt that would impress players either.

[Zjarcal]

Filament wrote...

Playing Awakening with an US just means the sacrifice gets retconned as the dark ritual instead... though I thought they planned to have some kind of thing where importing an Awakening file as such would make the Origins canon take precedent, so the sacrifice would have happened. They probably axed that though. But you could import an US straight from DAO to DA2.

I don't know if they scratched it or not, but it probably wouldn't make a difference in terms of her showing up.

Also, remember that Gaider said that the epilogues are treated as hearsay and rumors, so the epilogue slide that implies that can be waved away, just like with Anders in Awakening.

[esper]

@Filament-
Also two out of three warden backgrounds in da2 don't have a ogb.. The matyr is US and the dwarf thing (can't remember the name for that background) have the Redeemer ending.

[esper]

I also supect that it is going to be a simple answer like: it was in the fade or there was some ashes on the ground where she fell.

[Gunderic]

Zjarcal wrote...

Filament wrote...

Playing Awakening with an US just means the sacrifice gets retconned as the dark ritual instead... though I thought they planned to have some kind of thing where importing an Awakening file as such would make the Origins canon take precedent, so the sacrifice would have happened. They probably axed that though. But you could import an US straight from DAO to DA2.

I don't know if they scratched it or not, but it probably wouldn't make a difference in terms of her showing up.

Also, remember that Gaider said that the epilogues are treated as hearsay and rumors, so the epilogue slide that implies that can be waved away, just like with Anders in Awakening.

That's just something he said/planned so that the writers can fall back on it at any time. Some of the epilogue parts are clearly formulated to appear as rumours ( like Leliana being taken by the Maker ).

But the epilogue saying that Anders would always remain a friend of the Wardens and would always return sounded pretty indicative of what was planned at the time.

Modifié par Gunderic, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:27 .

[Wulfram]

Bioware should just say "She was only mostly dead. Yeah, it's a retcon, sorry.", and get on with it.

They aren't going to have a major event like "The Maker is real and can raise the dead" only occur in the small minority of games where she died.

[thats1evildude]

I find there's this under-current of entitlement in this debate around Leliana's return, as though Bioware should have set out specifically to give a detailed explanation for her resurrection to all those players who killed her off in Origins, even though you're largely in the minority.

Leliana never died in any of my games. Why should I care what explanation she gives for negating something that never happened in my own personal canon?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:36 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@Gunderic - I don't know that everything plotted out is intended to "impress" players, because you can't impress or please everybody. That's too subjective. I think that they wrote her story out, liked what direction they wanted to take her in, and have been giving us pieces of the story here and there. Someone is bound to be unhappy about one or more aspects of it. But it's their story, so... *shrug*

To quote Doug Henning, "It's maaaaaaaa-gic!" Probably as simple as that.