262 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Macropodmum wrote...

I not long ago started another playthrough of Origins, and while she might not have been spying for the divine she wasn't exactly being truthful with the warden either. There are discrepancies in what we saw in Leliana's Song and the story she give the warden about Marjolaine. Add to that she made a comment about "No more lies between us, not about that anyway" and I kind of wonder what else she was hiding...

Well, when you take her to the Gauntlet, the Guardian there does call her out on her vision, suggesting she might have made it up to get attention or something like that. Regardless, yeah, she wasn't being fully truthful in Origins about alot of things. But damned near everyone leaves something out, so she's not unique there.

It might actually make her interesting to me as a character, since I was usually meh about Leliana, and prefered Zevran as a rogue instead. If she was indeed the Divine's agent, whether inactive or active, from the time you first meet her in Lothering, then that would add a new level of intrigue to her character. It wouldn't make me like her, per se, but I would find her far more interesting than she was in Origins, and would like to see this in future games. Provided, of course, it doesn't involve some lame plot hammer device involving unexplained divine intervention or  Deus Ex Machina type scenario.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

Bioware should just say "She was only mostly dead. Yeah, it's a retcon, sorry.", and get on with it.

Indeed. Saying that "things are not always what they seem" is meh and I doubt they are going to devote resources to adequately explain her ressurection barring maybe one line of dialogue that is not going to satisfy anyone. So might as well just say it was a retcon.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Really, there is no escape for Bioware. If they make many important characters killable and then bring some back, people will complain about "retcon". If they give some of them plot armor, people will complain they can't kill so and so and that Bio is removing choice.

Anyways, I always considered siding with Kolgrim an idiotic decision not even the biggest psycho among my Wardens would think of seriously, so all this complaining about Leliana being back is a bit silly. Defiling the Ashes (especially in the presence of Leliana and/or Wynne) was a stupid choice that made zero sense to me anyway. Leli's possible revival or whatever is less out there than this choice.

And how is it that Lels gets more complians than Anders, who could have AVOIDED BECOMING A WARDEN in Awakening and yet is one in DA2 anyway, with knowlege about Blackmarsh and whatnot? Just curious.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

DrunkDeadman wrote...

Really, there is no escape for Bioware. If they make many important characters killable and then bring some back, people will complain about "retcon". If they give some of them plot armor, people will complain they can't kill so and so and that Bio is removing choice.

Anyways, I always considered siding with Kolgrim an idiotic decision not even the biggest psycho among my Wardens would think of seriously, so all this complaining about Leliana being back is a bit silly. Defiling the Ashes (especially in the presence of Leliana and/or Wynne) was a stupid choice that made zero sense to me anyway. Leli's possible revival or whatever is less out there than this choice.

Alot of people didn't think it stupid, and did so for various reasons. And it is likely they brought Wynne and Leliana from a metagame perspective so they can fight and kill them. A number of people thought not defiling the ashes was idiotic, so, well, there you go.

And how is it that Lels gets more complians than Anders, who could have AVOIDED BECOMING A WARDEN in Awakening and yet is one in DA2 anyway, with knowlege about Blackmarsh and whatnot? Just curious.

Because becoming a Warden or not is very different from suddenly getting rezzed, with the only explaination being something along the lines of "the Maker did it". Even if Anders dies in Awakening defending the Vigil, he explains what happened to Nathaniel. So it's not like we get dropped with a big Deus for Anders, just a skewed timeline and alot of offscreen "well, this and this happened."

Anders retconned was at least explained in some part, though the timeline for Anders is still quite flawed and normally by most people, has to be handwaved, which annoyed the crap out of alot of people on its own. Still, even though you had weak explainations, you still had some that at least could make sense, in context of the DA universe.

Leliana, however, is a different scenario. We don't get any reasonable hint or explaination why she is back from death. If they had at least attempted to hint as to why she was dead, or why she claimed to be following the Warden Hero of Ferelden when she never even met them, then people probably wouldn't be so annoyed and complain. But we get nothing, except "the Maker did it".

In what is supposed to be a low-Fantasy setting, this explaination is likely to annoy the crap out of many people, because low-Fantasy generally implies the lack of divine intervention/magical plot panaceas like this.

[aries1001]

I remember having seen this argument before - maybe a year ago? or 6 months ago?
However, as David Gaider told us there is an explanation for this. Remember that Leli is a rogue and has the 'feign death' ability. And remember that there is a lot of those sacred ashes around....in the Haven mountains. [I also remember someone mentioning in another thread that the mountains had a heap of - wait for it - lyrium in it or underneath it].

As for Leli's retconning, it is, imo, a retconning; more like a character development over 7-10 years. People change in 10 years time, and apparently so does npcs....

Regarding Leli's acting as a spy, I always speen suspicious about her socalled 'devotion' and change of 'heart' as in 'i've been a bad girl, but then I got to the chantry' line she tells in DA:O - not too believable if you ask me...

edit:

Speaking of Anders one of his lines in his clinic is this wonderful saying 'a wizard did it.' referencing devs explanation for plotholes etc. happening in games. Very funny, I might add. Sadly, I can't remember when exactly I heard this...but it was in act 1 or 2, I think...

Modifié par aries1001, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:01 .

[LobselVith8]

DrunkDeadman,

I think it's an issue of putting the protagonist in a position where he would kill someone he sees as dangerous, like the ending of "Shepherding Wolves" and "Legacy." Putting the protagonist in that position and denying the player the option to deal with a threat makes the protagonist appear to be incompetent. The problem with Leliana is that, for people who killed her, it makes no sense for their choice to be ignored with a "resurrection" when another character could have been inserted into the story instead. Regardless of what you personally thought of the choice, people made the decision, so why should it be ignored?

Anders and Justice don't make any sense, either, if he was never recruited and Justice was killed in the Dragonbone Wastes. I don't think anyone denies that.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

aries1001 wrote...

Speaking of Anders one of his lines in his clinic is this wonderful saying 'a wizard did it.' referencing devs explanation for plotholes etc. happening in games. Very funny, I might add. Sadly, I can't remember when exactly I heard this...but it was in act 1 or 2, I think...

It was actually in Act 1, when you go to talk to Bartrand to start the deep roads expedition, and got the maps. Bartrand asks you how you got them or something, and Anders quips his famous line.

[Wulfram]

There isn't a choice to kill Leliana. There's a choice to destroy the Ashes.

[Gunderic]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DrunkDeadman,

I think it's an issue of putting the protagonist in a position where he would kill someone he sees as dangerous, like the ending of "Shepherding Wolves" and "Legacy." Putting the protagonist in that position and denying the player the option to deal with a threat makes the protagonist appear to be incompetent. The problem with Leliana is that, for people who killed her, it makes no sense for their choice to be ignored with a "resurrection" when another character could have been inserted into the story instead. Regardless of what you personally thought of the choice, people made the decision, so why should it be ignored?

Anders and Justice don't make any sense, either, if he was never recruited and Justice was killed in the Dragonbone Wastes. I don't think anyone denies that.

Yeah, I agree. I keep hearing "The Warden wouldn't do that", or "Hawke wouldn't notice that happening" arguments against player agency, as if everyone's supposed to know my/other people's characters inside-out.

Modifié par Gunderic, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:48 .

[Sad Dragon]

DrunkDeadman wrote...

Really, there is no escape for Bioware. If they make many important characters killable and then bring some back, people will complain about "retcon". If they give some of them plot armor, people will complain they can't kill so and so and that Bio is removing choice.

Problem here is presentation and constancy. If you do not try to market a game as giving epic choices and every single person has plot armour -- except for bosses and random mobs that attack you -- then I think the majority of the player base will accept it for what it is. If you however say that "its all about your choices" and then give a few people plot armour then yeah, people will get annoyed.

Now if Leliana is needed to be alive at the end of DAO then Bioware could have made it so that you never really get the opportunity to kill her in DAO, and with a bit of effort they could have made it so that it didn't feel like plot armour either. They instead let you kill her and decided that they really wanted her for the story and to be a part of DA2. This creates inconstancy between the two games and thus people are calling it a retcon.

As for on topic: I also would have to add my voice to those who believe that the necklace name has more to do with her on a personal level and her journey then it being some secret foreshadowing that she is a Seeker. Though that is just my thought.

-TSD

[Chromie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Bioware should just say "She was only mostly dead. Yeah, it's a retcon, sorry.", and get on with it.

Indeed. Saying that "things are not always what they seem" is meh and I doubt they are going to devote resources to adequately explain her ressurection barring maybe one line of dialogue that is not going to satisfy anyone. So might as well just say it was a retcon.

I really don't think Bioware even knows what they were doing with Leliana.

[DarkDragon777]

Unless.....The Divine is secretly a mage and resurrected her with evil powers.

If not, then I think they're just making stuff up as they go along and not paying attention to what they did in the past with her character.

Modifié par DarkDragon777, 02 septembre 2011 - 10:33 .

[Wulfram]

I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing with Leliana now. But they presumably didn't have any future plans for her when they wrote her reaction to the Urn of Secret Ashes. Origins in general was transparently not written with much thought to sequels. Which as a self contained game was to it's benefit, but made things difficult for the sequel.

DA2 on the other hand was written with a lot of consideration of setting things up for future games, and suffered for it.

[Urazz]

So they retconned her death in Origins if you killed her. Big freaking whoop. How many people actually picked that option in Origins? A very small minority I'm sure so it's not a big deal.

[UltiPup]

You can make out how Leliana could have gotten in DA2. If you left her in Lothering, she could still get out of there before the horde showed up. Even if you had to kill her during the Urn quest, it is possible. Where did she die? Right next to a bunch of ashes that are said to have amazing healing abilities!

[Macropodmum]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I not long ago started another playthrough of Origins, and while she might not have been spying for the divine she wasn't exactly being truthful with the warden either. There are discrepancies in what we saw in Leliana's Song and the story she give the warden about Marjolaine. Add to that she made a comment about "No more lies between us, not about that anyway" and I kind of wonder what else she was hiding...

Well, when you take her to the Gauntlet, the Guardian there does call her out on her vision, suggesting she might have made it up to get attention or something like that. Regardless, yeah, she wasn't being fully truthful in Origins about alot of things. But damned near everyone leaves something out, so she's not unique there.

I'm not sure I have ever taken her to the gaunlet with me so I wasn't aware of that, TY.  I will admit that yes there could be reasons for the discrepancies but the fact that she says to the warden "No more lies between us, not about that anyway" would indicate to me that she is either still hiding something or lying about something else.

Modifié par Macropodmum, 03 septembre 2011 - 12:04 .

[TobiTobsen]

The Gauntlet is another thing that maybe could support the whole "divine intervention" theory.

Yes, Oghren tells us that there is Lyrium all over the freaking place, but did anybody ever told you that it makes you immortal? Something has to prolong the Guardians life. That guy is no ghost and he is still standing guard since the death of Andraste and that was thousand years ago. Avernus, a powerful bloodmage only manged 200 years and is near death.  And something has to give him his "insight".

Maybe his firm believe that the Maker only spoke to Andraste clouds his wisdom? Maybe he can't see that Leliana really had a vision because he doesn't want to believe it? Or my favorite theory again: maybe he is right. The maker only spoke to Andraste... and now we have a seemingly "reborn" or "immortal" Leliana, who says that the Maker spoke to her. Maybe she is Andraste?

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 03 septembre 2011 - 01:23 .

[whykikyouwhy]

TobiTobsen wrote...

The Gauntlet is another thing that maybe could support the whole "divine intervention" theory.

Yes, Oghren tells us that there is Lyrium all over the freaking place, but did anybody ever told you that it makes you immortal? Something has to prolong the Guardians life. That guy is no ghost and he is still standing guard since the death of Andraste and that was thousand years ago. Avernus, a powerful bloodmage only manged 200 years and is near death.  And something has to give him his "insight".

Maybe his firm believe that the Maker only spoke to Andraste clouds his wisdom? Maybe he can't see that Leliana really had a vision because he doesn't want to believe it? Or my favorite theory again: maybe he is right. The maker only spoke to Andraste... and now we have a seemingly "reborn" or "immortal" Leliana, who says that the Maker spoke to her. Maybe she is Andraste?

Hmm...ancient temple. Artifact with healing powers. Seemingly ageless guardian.

Unheard of!!



(and apologies for not posting the film, but that specific scene is elusive!)

[TobiTobsen]

When I think about it, Immortal Guardian must be a terrible boring job.

[Shadow Fox]

Don't know don't care even if she is a spy that doesn't mean she doesn't love the Warden(if you romanced her) or come to agree with some of the Warden's beliefs people are complex after all.Ever hear of the trope "Becoming The Mask"?

[DPSSOC]

Urazz wrote...

So they retconned her death in Origins if you killed her. Big freaking whoop.  How many people actually picked that option in Origins? A very small minority I'm sure so it's not a big deal.

 
It is a big freaking whoop because it's indicative of a behaviour that many fans don't want to see.  Regardless of how many people made the choice the choice was offered and then made void.  And I've heard it mentioned that the choice was to defile the ashes not kill Leliana but the choice was given to kill her.  Even if you defile the Ashes you are given the option to talk Leliana down in which case she just leaves (which perfectly syncs up with DA2) the player, and by extension the character, is given the option to deliberately, and indeed maliciously, kill Leliana.

UltiPup wrote...
You can make out how Leliana could have gotten in DA2. If you left her in Lothering, she could still get out of there before the horde showed up. Even if you had to kill her during the Urn quest, it is possible. Where did she die? Right next to a bunch of ashes that are said to have amazing healing abilities!

I was thinking this too until I remembered that said Ashes have been rendered useless through liberal application of Drake's blood.  So while I agree an explanation can be made, the Ashes healing her doesn't seem to work.  Unless of course some of the Ashes the Warden was carrying fell out durring the fight and as Leliana lay dying she managed to sprinkle some on herself.

However perhaps a simpler explanation is this; Leliana wasn't dead but dying and she had a health poultice.  Still spits in the face of those who deliberately chose to kill the great Bard and it potentially ignores kill animations so I'm not entirely pleased with it but it's better than just, "Yeah I'm alive now."

[whykikyouwhy]

DPSSOC wrote...

Urazz wrote...

So they retconned her death in Origins if you killed her. Big freaking whoop.  How many people actually picked that option in Origins? A very small minority I'm sure so it's not a big deal.

 
It is a big freaking whoop because it's indicative of a behaviour that many fans don't want to see.  Regardless of how many people made the choice the choice was offered and then made void.  And I've heard it mentioned that the choice was to defile the ashes not kill Leliana but the choice was given to kill her.  Even if you defile the Ashes you are given the option to talk Leliana down in which case she just leaves (which perfectly syncs up with DA2) the player, and by extension the character, is given the option to deliberately, and indeed maliciously, kill Leliana.

UltiPup wrote...
You can make out how Leliana could have gotten in DA2. If you left her in Lothering, she could still get out of there before the horde showed up. Even if you had to kill her during the Urn quest, it is possible. Where did she die? Right next to a bunch of ashes that are said to have amazing healing abilities!

I was thinking this too until I remembered that said Ashes have been rendered useless through liberal application of Drake's blood.  So while I agree an explanation can be made, the Ashes healing her doesn't seem to work.  Unless of course some of the Ashes the Warden was carrying fell out durring the fight and as Leliana lay dying she managed to sprinkle some on herself.

However perhaps a simpler explanation is this; Leliana wasn't dead but dying and she had a health poultice.  Still spits in the face of those who deliberately chose to kill the great Bard and it potentially ignores kill animations so I'm not entirely pleased with it but it's better than just, "Yeah I'm alive now."

Even if the cinematic/finishing move is to behead the bard, it may be possible for her to somehow surive the ordeal. The combination of lyrium in the mountain with the ashes may have made for the equivalent of a Restoration-Resurrection spell, allowing her to reattach anything lopped off and become whole and hale again.

Or she could be part-salamander, like the Architect - who seems to have grown back a hand that was severed. (I think Sandal may be part-salamander, as well, but that's a theory for another day. Or an older thread.) Thus, Leliana may have regenerative powers. She could be the T-1000 of Thedas and be made of liquid metal (or....lyrium).  

[Obadiah]

I'm pretty sure if Leliana was a spy the Spirit Guardian of the Ashes of Andraste would have brought that up.

[jlb524]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Even if the cinematic/finishing move is to behead the bard, it may be possible for her to somehow surive the ordeal. The combination of lyrium in the mountain with the ashes may have made for the equivalent of a Restoration-Resurrection spell, allowing her to reattach anything lopped off and become whole and hale again.

I have the strangest image in my head now. 

I always imagined an image of the Maker's gigantic hands descending down from the sky and reattaching her head.

[whykikyouwhy]

jlb524 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Even if the cinematic/finishing move is to behead the bard, it may be possible for her to somehow surive the ordeal. The combination of lyrium in the mountain with the ashes may have made for the equivalent of a Restoration-Resurrection spell, allowing her to reattach anything lopped off and become whole and hale again.

I have the strangest image in my head now. 

I always imagined an image of the Maker's gigantic hands descending down from the sky and reattaching her head.

Kind of like when a kid snaps off the heads of their dolls or action figures and then pops then back on to resume playing in the dirt? Or when pieces on the chessboard get toppled over and you have to right them again in order to continue your quest to capture the king?