262 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Even if the cinematic/finishing move is to behead the bard, it may be possible for her to somehow surive the ordeal. The combination of lyrium in the mountain with the ashes may have made for the equivalent of a Restoration-Resurrection spell, allowing her to reattach anything lopped off and become whole and hale again.

 
Yeah I'm not big on holding to kill animations in the game.  I chopped off Howe's head and yet he managed to reattach it for his last words, I'm willing to let things like that slide.  My biggest issue is that it offers the player a choice and then takes it away; regardless of what explanation is offered and whether or not I personally made the choice (just once).

whykikyouwhy wrote...
She could be the T-1000 of Thedas and be made of liquid metal (or....lyrium).  

Maybe, but if Arnold shows up trying to protect our protagonist from Lel I'm going home.

On Topic: for those who believe Leliana was working as a spy in Origins what was her mission?  Who was she spying on?  Answers that don't require the Seekers to be all knowing (as has been brought up) would be greatly appreciated.

[Urzon]

This argument doesn't really matter.

If she was a spy, she told the Divine all the Warden's actions and involvement in everything.

If she wasn't a spy, she told the Divine everything anyway after she left the Warden for Orlais.

One way or another, the Divine and the Seekers are going to learn everything about the Warden. Her being an active spy at the time or not.

[Sajuro]

I wonder if the drake blood would render the ashes moot or whatever they were supposed to do since blood is a powerful source of magic and dragons are kinda magical in their own right. I take what that guy says with a grain of salt since he worships a high dragon and drinks blood, just a personal bias of mine.

[Urzon]

Sajuro wrote...

I wonder if the drake blood would render the ashes moot or whatever they were supposed to do since blood is a powerful source of magic and dragons are kinda magical in their own right. I take what that guy says with a grain of salt since he worships a high dragon and drinks blood, just a personal bias of mine.

Hmm...

Dragon Blood+Andraste's Ashes= Super!Reaver Leliana?

That would be interesting to say the least.

It would also be very funny that if you got her mad; she would go all Red Hulk and go smashing threw Orlais. Her first stop.... the shoe store.

"LELIANA NEED SHOES!!!"

[TobiTobsen]

Sajuro wrote...

I wonder if the drake blood would render the ashes moot or whatever they were supposed to do since blood is a powerful source of magic and dragons are kinda magical in their own right. I take what that guy says with a grain of salt since he worships a high dragon and drinks blood, just a personal bias of mine.

Kolgrim is freaking insane. I don't think that you just can render holy and/or lyrium infused wonder ashes useless just by pouring some blood on it.

[dsl08002]

Even if she is a spy or not she still loves the warden( if you romanced her) after the warden disappears as you find out in the exiled prince dlc, and she is hoping to find the Warden for that reason.

[TobiTobsen]

dsl08002 wrote...

Even if she is a spy or not she still loves the warden( if you romanced her) after the warden disappears as you find out in the exiled prince dlc, and she is hoping to find the Warden for that reason.

That's true. She has no reason to lie about that to a total stranger.

[whykikyouwhy]

TobiTobsen wrote...

dsl08002 wrote...

Even if she is a spy or not she still loves the warden( if you romanced her) after the warden disappears as you find out in the exiled prince dlc, and she is hoping to find the Warden for that reason.

That's true. She has no reason to lie about that to a total stranger.

This has me wondering...the random loot item - "Book of Suggestive Caricatures"...maybe Leliana was the author. Caricatures peppered with euphemistic sonnets? Hmmm.

[esper]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I wonder if the drake blood would render the ashes moot or whatever they were supposed to do since blood is a powerful source of magic and dragons are kinda magical in their own right. I take what that guy says with a grain of salt since he worships a high dragon and drinks blood, just a personal bias of mine.

Kolgrim is freaking insane. I don't think that you just can render holy and/or lyrium infused wonder ashes useless just by pouring some blood on it.

Pouring blood which is known to grant extra abilities into it. But if Leli was killed and resurrected I would like her resurrected character to be different than the non-resurrected Leli's that way the choice to kill her would still have a consequence, just not the one the players thought.

[Sajuro]

Urzon wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I wonder if the drake blood would render the ashes moot or whatever they were supposed to do since blood is a powerful source of magic and dragons are kinda magical in their own right. I take what that guy says with a grain of salt since he worships a high dragon and drinks blood, just a personal bias of mine.

Hmm...

Dragon Blood+Andraste's Ashes= Super!Reaver Leliana?

That would be interesting to say the least.

It would also be very funny that if you got her mad; she would go all Red Hulk and go smashing threw Orlais. Her first stop.... the shoe store.

"LELIANA NEED SHOES!!!"

She'll become a dragon, the warden will be like 'hey I killed you' and she will be all like 'nom' and it will be glorious.

[T3H Fish]

Sajuro wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I wonder if the drake blood would render the ashes moot or whatever they were supposed to do since blood is a powerful source of magic and dragons are kinda magical in their own right. I take what that guy says with a grain of salt since he worships a high dragon and drinks blood, just a personal bias of mine.

Hmm...

Dragon Blood+Andraste's Ashes= Super!Reaver Leliana?

That would be interesting to say the least.

It would also be very funny that if you got her mad; she would go all Red Hulk and go smashing threw Orlais. Her first stop.... the shoe store.

"LELIANA NEED SHOES!!!"

She'll become a dragon, the warden will be like 'hey I killed you' and she will be all like 'nom' and it will be glorious.

Leliana Dragon... all I can do is laugh and be terrified all at the same time. 

[Sajuro]

esper wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I wonder if the drake blood would render the ashes moot or whatever they were supposed to do since blood is a powerful source of magic and dragons are kinda magical in their own right. I take what that guy says with a grain of salt since he worships a high dragon and drinks blood, just a personal bias of mine.

Kolgrim is freaking insane. I don't think that you just can render holy and/or lyrium infused wonder ashes useless just by pouring some blood on it.

Pouring blood which is known to grant extra abilities into it. But if Leli was killed and resurrected I would like her resurrected character to be different than the non-resurrected Leli's that way the choice to kill her would still have a consequence, just not the one the players thought.

If she really ****ing hated the warden for killing her? If /when the warden shows up again she stabs him in the face?
Or it could only be that the ashes reaffirmed her belief in the Maker and that's the reason she joined the seekers.

[LobselVith8]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Kolgrim is freaking insane.

Whether Kolgrim is insane or not, the Guardian tries to kill The Warden for destroying the ashes in the Urn, as Wynne and Leliana proceed to do (unless Leliana's personality is hardened and The Warden coerces her not to attack him).

[TEWR]

esper wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I wonder if the drake blood would render the ashes moot or whatever they were supposed to do since blood is a powerful source of magic and dragons are kinda magical in their own right. I take what that guy says with a grain of salt since he worships a high dragon and drinks blood, just a personal bias of mine.

Kolgrim is freaking insane. I don't think that you just can render holy and/or lyrium infused wonder ashes useless just by pouring some blood on it.

Pouring blood which is known to grant extra abilities into it. But if Leli was killed and resurrected I would like her resurrected character to be different than the non-resurrected Leli's that way the choice to kill her would still have a consequence, just not the one the players thought.

Dragon's blood increases constitution and grants a person to have more strength. I'd say that by defiling the Ashes the Warden actually strengthened the Ashes.

It's understandable though that the Guardian would attack the Warden though for defiling something so holy and treasured.

[FieryDove]

Will we ever find out what happened one way or the other?

Why is she with the seekers if some people hardened and romanced her. Did all the wardens go off on the calling early or what? So many frayed strings dangling...

[Birdhive]

I skipped pages 3 - 5 of this thread in my eagerness to reply, so forgive me in advance if I missed something which was already said.

I love to imagine Leliana as a spy in Origins! The Seeker's Circle amulet gives a +1 bonus to cunning and a +10 to mental resistance (Origins is open in another window on my machine right now, so I just checked), which seems pretty agent-of-the-divine to me. Not something your typical lay sister (or, as Sten puts it, "houseguest" of the chantry) would likely need.

[Beware spoilers out the wazoo, for dlc, expansion, books, ][, and the absurd narrative in my brain.]

Leliana's Song does show us that she knows the Divine, and that the Divine has taken a strong interest in her. Leliana also says (in Origins) that the other chantry folks called her beliefs about the maker blasphemous, which I think wouldn't be tolerated for long were she a regular, ordinary old blasphemer (unbacked by the Divine/someone high up).

From Return to Ostagar, we know that Cailan had corresponded with the Empress of Orlais about assistance in advance of the Warden's recruitment. Lothering sits right by Ostagar, so why not park an agent there for a while? Someone above said she could be an inactive agent; that seems plausible. We also know that the Orlesian Grey Wardens were aware of the blight; they'd probably known at least as long as the Ferelden GWs about the upsurgence of darkspawn and their location.

From the books (more specifically, from The Calling) we know that some Orlesians (high ranking suckers) were in cahoots with the Architect, who may or may not have survived Awakenings, to undermine Ferelden.

So what if, and here beware massively absurd speculation, what if the Orlesians actually knew when and where the blight was going to go down, possibly even years before it did? What if the Divine and the Empress are at odds? What if Orlais and the sentient 'spawn have an alliance? What if Kirkwall's demon troubles (cue Legacy) are darkspawn instigated (Corypheous--sp?)? It could be a nice one-two; undercut Fereldan with the Blight, stir up trouble, sucker-punch Kirkwall and cause civil war in the Free Marches. Maybe the Divine knows what the Empress is up to with the likes of the Archi and Coryphi and is opposed? Maybe there's another assault planned on the Maker's former abode, his works, and instead of Tevinter, it's being led this time by Orlais?

Plus, mix in some Band of Three, a dash of Lyrium Idol/Primeval Thaig, and The Stone Is Alive (Nexus Golem) utterances for extra flavor! Sprinkle liberally with Flemeth, and season to taste with Old God Baby sauce.

My ultimate point being: Leliana could so totally have been a spy right from the start.

Phew! *removes pyramidal-shaped tin-foil wild-theory-intensifying hat and resumes playing Origins*

[T3H Fish]

The only problem I have with swallowing Leliana being a spy for the Divine in Origins is the whole 'why'. She was in Lothering for awhile, this is pdetermined by banter from Bethany about when they were living in Lothering, she was there long enough for even people who lived on the remote edges of the village to be acquainted with her and know her by name.

If she was truly sent by the Divine to spy on Ferelden, why in all places would she be stationed in Lothering, a remote, backwater village bordering the Kocari Wilds, where nothing was happening up until reports of the Darkspawn started filtering in and Cailin gathered the army and remained Ferelden Grey Wardens. I don't believe she was there to spy on the Grey Wardens or even the army, else she'd have been in Ostagar. If she was there to spy on Cailin because of the negotiations going on between him and the Empress, that would be plausible but there's really nothing to suggest that she was.

Even if she reported back, Dorothea didn't become the next Divine till around Act 3 of DA2, well after the Blight was over. I just find it difficult to think that Leliana had any ulterior motives during Origins, even though she is a bard and it fits her past and DA2 character, but in Origins... seems a bit of a stretch without knowing more of about what's going on in the rest of Thedas.

[GSSAGE7]

I'd like to think that Leliana was offered the position before, but turned it down, but kept the Amulet. After Marjolaine's visit, and her internal argument between Spy and Chantry sister, she decided to take up the offer as spy for the chantry, which would explain why she did it no matter if you hardened her or not.
Or maybe I'm just blowing smoke outta my ass. Could be either of the two.

[TobiTobsen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Kolgrim is freaking insane.

Whether Kolgrim is insane or not, the Guardian tries to kill The Warden for destroying the ashes in the Urn, as Wynne and Leliana proceed to do (unless Leliana's personality is hardened and The Warden coerces her not to attack him).

I should have seperated my answer. I never thought that Kolgrim is to crazy for his plan to work or that it wouldn't ****** of every Andrastian in the room. It was just my answer on the opinion that Kolgrim is slightly nuts

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 05 septembre 2011 - 09:05 .

[Wulfram]

T3H Fish wrote...

Leliana Dragon... all I can do is laugh and be terrified all at the same time. 

I'm now imagining her sleeping contentedly on a hoard of golden shoes

[Birdhive]

T3H Fish wrote...

The only problem I have with swallowing Leliana being a spy for the Divine in Origins is the whole 'why'. She was in Lothering for awhile, this is pdetermined by banter from Bethany about when they were living in Lothering, she was there long enough for even people who lived on the remote edges of the village to be acquainted with her and know her by name.

If she was truly sent by the Divine to spy on Ferelden, why in all places would she be stationed in Lothering, a remote, backwater village bordering the Kocari Wilds, where nothing was happening up until reports of the Darkspawn started filtering in and Cailin gathered the army and remained Ferelden Grey Wardens. I don't believe she was there to spy on the Grey Wardens or even the army, else she'd have been in Ostagar. If she was there to spy on Cailin because of the negotiations going on between him and the Empress, that would be plausible but there's really nothing to suggest that she was.

I guess my rather rambly point was this: it is not unfeasable that the Orlesians could have been in cahoots with the Architect during and just before the setting of Origins--since they had already been so about 20-ish years before! (The Calling)--or in cahoots with another ex-Tevinter-mage-original-darkspawn type who would have been able to tell them the location of the archdemon and an approximate timeline for the blight.    The Architect doesn't (potentially) die until Awakenings.

If this scenario were true, then they (the Divine, or Justinia, or simply the Seekers--someone who had gotten intel on the Empress' cahootsiness) could have had someone stationed in Lothering for a very long time before the darkspawn made it to the Archdemon, years even.  I presume the darkspawn don't tunnel super-quickly; in fact, they were already tunnelling during the time-period during which The Calling takes place--and Flemeth knew that Ferelden would be the location of the blight during the time period of The Stolen Throne, years before that.  Just because our PCs didn't know doodly about the blight's appearance, it doesn't mean that the information wasn't out there for lots of others to know and plot to use to their own advantage.

Scene: The Empress' Throne Room

Empress of Orlais: *writing* "What's that?  You've got a blight?  You don't say.  Sure Cailan, we'll send you help!".  Ha!  Dummy.  Loghain hates our guts and will never allow you to accept our help; simply by telling you that we'll help, I've likely incited civil war in your stupid, dog-loving country!  Mwahahaha!  Come, Architect!  Let's toast.  By the by, do you know anything about the Free Marches?  I hear you've been spending a lot of time near there, in the Amaranthine region . . . 

Seeker's Circle Bard: *singing "lalaaaaleeeeoooolaeeeooolala" but thinking* Dear Maker!  The Empress is dastardly; she's in cahoots with one of those evil Tevinter Magisters of old, who so enraged the Maker and tainted the world!  I must report this latest affront to the Divine.  

Scene: The Office of The Divine

The Divine: *writing* Dear Agent L, I hope this missive finds you well in Lothering.  I have had some reports that you think the maker personally talks to you.  I'd appreciate it if you'd keep that to yourself, as I've had to soothe several of the preistesses egos; you would not believe the number of beribboned shoes I sent to the Lothering Chantry just to keep you there on the QT.  It's partly my fault, I know, for stationing you in that dull burg these past few years.  Anyhoo!  I've recently received some very troubling reports.  It looks like what we feared has come to pass; the Blight has indeed begun.  Any day now there should be a massing of Wardens and such in your area.  With luck, they'll quell the Blight in no time, and your assistance won't be needed.  Just keep an eye out.  Should anything go wrong, however, you are to assist the cause of the Wardens by any means necessary!  This evil cannot be allowed to walk the face of Thedas!  In the Maker's name.  Love, The Divine.  This message will self destruct in 10 seconds.

Modifié par Birdhive, 05 septembre 2011 - 08:18 .

[dsl08002]

It will be interesting to see those of us who romanced Leliana what the reunion would be between the warden and her?

[whykikyouwhy]

Birdhive wrote...

I guess my rather rambly point was this: it is not unfeasable that the Orlesians could have been in cahoots with the Architect during and just before the setting of Origins--since they had already been so about 20-ish years before! (The Calling)--or in cahoots with another ex-Tevinter-mage-original-darkspawn type who would have been able to tell them the location of the archdemon and an approximate timeline for the blight.    The Architect doesn't (potentially) die until Awakenings.

If this scenario were true, then they (the Divine, or Justinia, or simply the Seekers--someone who had gotten intel on the Empress' cahootsiness) could have had someone stationed in Lothering for a very long time before the darkspawn made it to the Archdemon, years even.  I presume the darkspawn don't tunnel super-quickly; in fact, they were already tunnelling during the time-period during which The Calling takes place--and Flemeth knew that Ferelden would be the location of the blight during the time period of The Stolen Throne, years before that.  Just because our PCs didn't know doodly about the blight's appearance, it doesn't mean that the information wasn't out there for lots of others to know and plot to use to their own advantage.

Scene: The Empress' Throne Room

Empress of Orlais: *writing* "What's that?  You've got a blight?  You don't say.  Sure Cailan, we'll send you help!".  Ha!  Dummy.  Loghain hates our guts and will never allow you to accept our help; simply by telling you that we'll help, I've likely incited civil war in your stupid, dog-loving country!  Mwahahaha!  Come, Architect!  Let's toast.  By the by, do you know anything about the Free Marches?  I hear you've been spending a lot of time near there, in the Amaranthine region . . . 

Seeker's Circle Bard: *singing "lalaaaaleeeeoooolaeeeooolala" but thinking* Dear Maker!  The Empress is dastardly; she's in cahoots with one of those evil Tevinter Magisters of old, who so enraged the Maker and tainted the world!  I must report this latest affront to the Divine.  

Scene: The Office of The Divine

The Divine: *writing* Dear Agent L, I hope this missive finds you well in Lothering.  I have had some reports that you think the maker personally talks to you.  I'd appreciate it if you'd keep that to yourself, as I've had to soothe several of the preistesses egos; you would not believe the number of beribboned shoes I sent to the Lothering Chantry just to keep you there on the QT.  It's partly my fault, I know, for stationing you in that dull burg these past few years.  Anyhoo!  I've recently received some very troubling reports.  It looks like what we feared has come to pass; the Blight has indeed begun.  Any day now there should be a massing of Wardens and such in your area.  With luck, they'll quell the Blight in no time, and your assistance won't be needed.  Just keep an eye out.  Should anything go wrong, however, you are to assist the cause of the Wardens by any means necessary!  This evil cannot be allowed to walk the face of Thedas!  In the Maker's name.  Love, The Divine.  This message will self destruct in 10 seconds.

I think you may have the political intrigue on the part of Orlais down pat, but I'm not so certain about Leliana's role at that juncture. When she was in Lothering, I think she was being groomed for the role - not yet told about the Seekers' interest, not yet indoctrinated, but closely watched. After all, Dorothea knew what she was capable of, but the bard was probably still fairly young (maybe there's an minimum age to get into the Seekers...who knows) and I'm sure all of the interested parties wanted to see how this whole Blight thing turned out.

Post-fall of the archdemon, it was probably just a matter of a fancy scripted letter with a jaunty wax seal, and once in Orlais, some chit-chat behind closed doors and the like. Maybe tea and cakes, if she was lucky (but that's probably how they do it in Orlais, so...).

[Macropodmum]

Wulfram wrote...

T3H Fish wrote...

Leliana Dragon... all I can do is laugh and be terrified all at the same time. 

I'm now imagining her sleeping contentedly on a hoard of golden shoes

Lol