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[ElvaliaRavenHart]

RagingCyclone wrote...

@EvaliaRavenHart-whether Leliana was killed or not, her presence in DA2 as a Seeker is a retcon. It's the reason this thread even exists. Whether one wants to admit it or not, each person posting here has at one point or another questioned why she was there. All of the theories and speculation are attempts to bridge the gap in the two parts of her story that at the offset don't seem to fit. That is what a retcon does. Did the writers have a plan from the beginning? I doubt it. Do they have one now? I am sure they do, but it's basically a retcon of a retcon. It's a trap that many writing professors will tell any student to avoid. Could I be wrong on this last part...sure...I don't know all of the details involved...only a hunch of what I have seen thus far.

As I said in my explanations in the post above, I don't see this as being a retcon.  There are to many possible explanations on why she is alive.  There were numerous apostate mages in the quest and they might have been healers like Wynne.  They could have revived her before she fully expired off screen.  Another guardian coming to take the place of the killed guardian could have revived her.  I'm assuming if the guardian is killed than another would take his place.  It seems to me the people who say it is a retcon are the ones who have killed her and they are ticked that their decision over her wasn't honored, so they yell retcon.  Yet the lore and the possible convos in the game itself leads to ideas on how she can be alive. 

It won't be a retcon if the Leliana in DA2 is her twin.  One could say that Alistair and Cailan could be twins as well, even though there isn't any information in the game to indicate this.   

[thats1evildude]

RagingCyclone wrote...

@EvaliaRavenHart-whether Leliana was killed or not, her presence in DA2 as a Seeker is a retcon. It's the reason this thread even exists. Whether one wants to admit it or not, each person posting here has at one point or another questioned why she was there.

It's not a retcon if she joined the Seekers after the end of Origins. That's just character development. 

And the original point of this thread was that the OP interpreted a random theory that was posted in another portion of the forum as the gospel truth. A theory, I might note, that doesn't make any sense.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 08 septembre 2011 - 05:45 .

[LobselVith8]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@LobselVith8 - Whether or not Leliana is a retcon is probably going to remain a matter of opinion, because of the possibility that she may never have actually "died" in both body and spirit. And yes, that will bring about concerns of agency and/or choice, but with all of the weirdness at the site of the Urn, any sort of event of miraculous proportion could have taken place.

It's not a matter of opinion, though. Whether people like Leliana or not, or think she's a good or bad character, is a matter of opinion. Those issues are subjective. The story changing a character who died (for some) and saying she's alive for people who killed her is a recton. Any explanation that states that a dead character (for people who killed her) is now alive is retroactive continuity.

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The story changing a character who died (for some) and saying she's alive for people who killed her is a recton. Any explanation that states that a dead character (for people who killed her) is now alive is retroactive continuity.

Sure, it's a retcon for some players. What of it?

At this point, you're going to say "BLAH BIOWAREZ TRAMPLIN' OVER MAH CHOICES", but as I've stated before, this whole thing isn't necessarily about you. In my canon playthrough, I preserved the Ashes and maintained a romance with Leliana until the end of the game. For me, Leliana's cameo in DA2 is a bonus.

Which subset of players should they attempt to please here? The number of players who killed Leliana are going to be outnumbered by those who didn't, as the actual circumstances that will allow you to kill her are narrow.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 08 septembre 2011 - 06:23 .

[whykikyouwhy]

*shrug* Ok. My only question to that would be whether or not you expected an explanation in DA:O. If a player killed Leliana and you found out in DA:O's epilogue she didn't actually die, would that be satisfactory or would you be crying foul because, after all, you saw her die (or you think you did)? Or is it that the decision to kill her should have never been offered if indeed she cannot or will not die?

If the devs' intent was to have her continue on, to me, that is not a retcon. Her perceived death syncs up with numerous possibilities for how it can be explained away. I don't need an explanation as to why she is alive right after she supposedly dies. The explanation can come later. That doesn't take away from the story, for me, because obviously there was a reason why she was supposed to be alive. She has a special purpose.

This was brought up on an earlier page in this thread, but the option to kill her is not about her death so much as it is about how you play your Warden (poor paraphrasing).

But, as thats1evildude said, this thread is about whether or not she is was a Seeker back in Lothering, not whether or not she might be a zombie in disguise.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Lobselvith8

How can it be a retcon when there are to many possbile explanations on how she can be alive? The lore itself in the game gives possible explanations.

Do you deny that the game tells us that there are apostate mages walking around in Thedas and Ferelden who might be healing mages? Flemeth herself is an apostate mage and one who heals. It could have been Anders also seeking information on Andraste and he found the temple. We have no way of knowing if it is Anders, just throwing him out there as a possible explanation. We don't have a correct timeline when Anders made his last escape attempt from the tower. He wasn't in the tower during the broken circle quest. If I remember correctly Anders is a mage from the Ferelden Circle.

If you say no I don't deny this, then this is your answer on how she can be alive even though we don't see what happened off screen. A blood mage could have healed her that we didn't kill in the temple. They could have hidden when the warden and party went through the temple.

Therefore it's not a retcon. Andraste herself could have healed her, it's her temple after all. She is said to be sitting at the right hand of the Maker. Therefore she is alive in the spirit realm. This is lore.

Just because players say it is a retcon doesn't mean that it actually is one. In Leliana's cause there is no way it is a retcon even if you kill her because the lore can offer other explanations on why she is alive.

There are only three explanations on how she can be alive in my mind:

1. An Apostate Mage healed her
2. Someone used dragon blood or blood ashes to revive her or Andraste/Maker brought her back to life
3. Or she has a twin.

The same with Anders in DA2 if you kill him. They only way for Anders to be alive will be because the warden was in the shadows with Ser Pounce and Pounce revived Anders. The warden will be in the shadows from here on out with the rest of the series if your warden(s) is(are) alive. A mage nearby could also heal Anders from the shadows, or an apostate that nobody knows is a mage hiding in a nearby building or was in the sewers on the docks. I know the developers have already said that Anders will remain dead even if you kill him, but the lore and possible explanations are there for him to also be alive if you kill him.

As for Leliana being a spy, yes I believe she has always been a spy and the old lady that she lived with in Orlais taught her to be one.  She was a spy in LS before the events in DAO. Dorthea recruited her after LS.  I believe that the Chantry is the main patron for all bards.  Now did she become a seeker before or after the events of DAO, well this is the actually debut isn't it.  We really don't know.  This is up for speculation.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 08 septembre 2011 - 09:36 .

[RagingCyclone]

The whole thing about her being a spy or a Seeker stems from this:


However, this says nothing about belonging to an order within the chantry or anything else beyond a gift meant to be given without condition. The Seekers IIRC aren't even mentioned in Origins, but something new in DA2. So all of the speculation of why she is even there no matter what happened in DAO is grasping at straws to ascertain why she is there at all. Just the word Seeker does not connect the dots unless you forgo much of what she said in Origins. That is retconning whether you want to admit it or not.

[LobselVith8]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ Lobselvith

I killed Brother Genitivi once and in this playthrough I got a slide that said the ashes were stolen.

There isn't an Epilogue slide that reads that the ashes are stolen. You might be thinking of the Epilogue slide where no one finds the ashes because the High Dragon remains and causes a rampage if the cult is killed but not the dragon Andraste. The ashes are destroyed if The Warden pours the Dragon blood on them, leading to Genitivi's death if she's mislead about the fate of the ashes, there are problems with the High Dragon and pilgrims disturbing Her, or the pilgrims reach the Urn of Sacred Ashes whether Genitivi is alive or dead.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I always guessed that Leliana or Zevran stole the ashes or even Morrigan. Could have been Alistair too or someone else off screen. If Leliana stole the ashes in this situation then I can also see this helping place Dorthea in power within the chantry. I did keep Leliana alive in that playthrough. Actually I've never killed her.

I didn't kill Leliana, either, but "Faith" is pushing me towards choosing that option in the future for "Sister Nightingale."

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

We also don't know for sure if damaging the ashes really does anything to them with the blood from the dragon. We are also told that a dragon's blood has healing powers and this is why the blood cults are around. So where the blood of the dragon is concerned it can go either way. Isn't this where we pick up the gift (book) for Wynne on a blood dragon potions in this quest. I think we do pick this up during this quest.  I can also see the ashes being replenished when you kill the High Dragon at the urn.  What if the ashes are nothing more than the ashes of a draon?  We don't really know this either. 

If the ashes are destroyed by the dragon blood, it can be read in the Epilogue that no ashes are found and new converts to Kolgrim's dragon cult are made, or Genitivi commits suicide because he leads the Chantry there but no ashes are found. There's no indication that the ashes are still there.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

If the Maker is real and he wants Leliana to be alive then she will be. Or as I said we have her twin walking around.

If it's a twin, then it's not a recton because Leliana remains dead (for those who killed her), but I'd find the Maker bringing Leliana back to be pretty lackluster. It's the same problem I had with BSG doing the same thing in Season 4.

[whykikyouwhy]

@RagingCyclone - Just so I'm certain I understand, are you saying that the "Seeker" aspect is the retcon? If so, who's to say whether or not the order was envisioned during the creation of DA:O or not. I'm sure there were several plot points mapped out that weren't integrated but were meant to be revealed later in the storyline. Just because the order isn't mentioned in DA:O doesn't mean that it didn't exist. It may just not have fit into the timeline of Origins' plot.

As for the amulet, I always took it to be "seeker" - lower case, as in a seeker of the Light/the Maker. But yeah, that was the original impetus for this thread, I believe.

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The story changing a character who died (for some) and saying she's alive for people who killed her is a recton. Any explanation that states that a dead character (for people who killed her) is now alive is retroactive continuity.

Sure, it's a retcon for some players. What of it?

That's pretty much it. I get the feeling some people misinterpret the meaning of the word 'recton.'

thats1evildude wrote...

At this point, you're going to say "BLAH BIOWAREZ TRAMPLIN' OVER MAH CHOICES", but as I've stated before, this whole thing isn't necessarily about you. In my canon playthrough, I preserved the Ashes and maintained a romance with Leliana until the end of the game. For me, Leliana's cameo in DA2 is a bonus.

No, because I didn't kill Leliana for my Surana Warden, so it doesn't contradict my choice to see her in Kirkwall.

thats1evildude wrote...

Which subset of players should they attempt to please here? The number of players who killed Leliana are going to be outnumbered by those who didn't, as the actual circumstances that will allow you to kill her are narrow.

It would have been better to have a new character for the scenerio where Leliana is killed instead of rectonning Leliana being alive, if you want my honest opinion. It would've avoided alienating people who feel like their choices don't matter. It's what's done in some games where a particular character is killed, and a new one replaces them for some scenerios - like New Vegas.

[LobselVith8]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

*shrug* Ok. My only question to that would be whether or not you expected an explanation in DA:O. If a player killed Leliana and you found out in DA:O's epilogue she didn't actually die, would that be satisfactory or would you be crying foul because, after all, you saw her die (or you think you did)? Or is it that the decision to kill her should have never been offered if indeed she cannot or will not die?

I don't see why any character choices should be overwritten, to be quite honest. Not much is done to explain how Anders met Justice if Anders was never recruited and Justice was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes, to provide one example. The game should have accomodated certain choices instead of rectonning them. Why not provide a new character instead of bringing Leliana back to life for players who killed her? It's only going to bother people who did make those choices, and are seeing their particular choice ignored.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

If the devs' intent was to have her continue on, to me, that is not a retcon. Her perceived death syncs up with numerous possibilities for how it can be explained away. I don't need an explanation as to why she is alive right after she supposedly dies. The explanation can come later. That doesn't take away from the story, for me, because obviously there was a reason why she was supposed to be alive. She has a special purpose.

Recton is defined as: "Retroactive continuity is an oxymoron that refers to the alteration of previously established facts in a fictional work."

Changing Leliana from being dead, to being alive, is a recton. Sure, there can be explanations for why she's now alive, but that doesn't change that it's still a recton. You're welcome to like the change, but that doesn't change that it's retroactive continuity - a change from what was previously established, i.e. Leliana being dead.

Since Leliana was killed (for some) and this is being changed in the sequel, it's a recton. I get the impression that some people don't understand what a recton means, which seems to be the problem. It doesn't have anything to do with being a good or bad change - it's simply identified as a change of what was previously established.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

This was brought up on an earlier page in this thread, but the option to kill her is not about her death so much as it is about how you play your Warden (poor paraphrasing).

But, as thats1evildude said, this thread is about whether or not she is was a Seeker back in Lothering, not whether or not she might be a zombie in disguise.

We can debate the semantics of "The Urn of Sacred Ashes," but that won't change the issue that some people have with the alterations to their choices, and not simply for bringing Leliana back to life.

[RagingCyclone]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@RagingCyclone - Just so I'm certain I understand, are you saying that the "Seeker" aspect is the retcon? If so, who's to say whether or not the order was envisioned during the creation of DA:O or not. I'm sure there were several plot points mapped out that weren't integrated but were meant to be revealed later in the storyline. Just because the order isn't mentioned in DA:O doesn't mean that it didn't exist. It may just not have fit into the timeline of Origins' plot.

As for the amulet, I always took it to be "seeker" - lower case, as in a seeker of the Light/the Maker. But yeah, that was the original impetus for this thread, I believe.

When I played Origins I thought the same about the amulet, much like Rosary Beads for Catholics. As for the retconning, I mentioned in this thread before there were about half of the options for her that would lead her to not be with the chantry, both in what she says and the epilogue slides. (yes I know Gaider already said the slides mean nothing...which is a cheap writing ploy according to my old writing professor).  So for an instance like my canon warden she would not be back with the chantry or a Seeker. I have since made other wardens that fit the scenario for her to be in the position she is in DA2. But I keep hearing the argument that she changed her mind, it's been seven years, etc to explain why the inconsistencies in her storyline. My personal problem is that her scenario should have been handled Like Wrex in ME2 (not the first time I have said this either) but wasn't for whatever reason. My final conclusion will come when we get the expanded part of her story as Gaider said, but I already have anticipated disappointment in the outcome. Perhaps Gaider et al can prove me wrong, but there is a track record telling otherwise when they have dealt with cameos or bringing characters from one game to the next.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Lobselsith8,

Excuse me, but I did get that slide. Just because you didn't get one doesn't mean I'm a liar. I don't appreciate the reference that I lied about it. I've seen other players get different slides with different outcomes from what I got because of their different decisions. Once again those slides are heresay. They are rumors according to the developers themselves. They may or maynot be true. The slide did say that the ashes had been stolen when I killed Brother Genitivi. As I said before I didn't kill Leliana in that playthrough.  I got the slide by killing the brother but kept Leliana alive because I didn't defile the ashes.  I've never defiled the ashes. 

I've also never seen anyone on this forum ever say that Brother Genitivi kills himself because the ashes have been defiled. I'm taking you at your word since I've never played that way, notice I didn't call you a liar just because I haven't played it this way. What lack of consideration to another player. Just because they got a different outcome from you. That is just rude because you can't agree with others who say it's not a retcon. We all get the point you see it as retcon, I don't. You have your opinion and I have mine.

I don't know if I have a screen shot of that slide or not. If I have one I'll post it. I also got a screenshot with two Morrigan's in the room with Alistair doing the DR. Just because I don't post it does this make me a lair? I have over 7,000 screenshots so it will take me time to find it if I have a screenshot of the slide.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 08 septembre 2011 - 07:14 .

[RagingCyclone]

ElvaliaRavenHart- I got that ending to once, and I think it mentioned the cultists were also gone. It was one where I tricked Kolgrim into believing I would defile the ashes, but didn't. I figured they had stolen the ashes.

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, because I didn't kill Leliana for my Surana Warden, so it doesn't contradict my choice to see her in Kirkwall.

Fair enough, though now I have to wonder why you're arguing with me in the first place.

LobselVith8 wrote...

It would have been better to have a new character for the scenerio where Leliana is killed instead of rectonning Leliana being alive, if you want my honest opinion. It would've avoided alienating people who feel like their choices don't matter.

1) There's a few reasons I can think of for why Leliana is in the final scene with Cassandra, but I'll just give one: having her appear there lends that scene more dramatic weight than if Cassandra was chatting with some random flunkie. 
2) The people who killed Leliana are, as I said, in the minority, as the circumstances that allow you to do so are fairly narrow. Why should they be accomodated over the majority?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 08 septembre 2011 - 08:09 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

RagingCyclone wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart- I got that ending to once, and I think it mentioned the cultists were also gone. It was one where I tricked Kolgrim into believing I would defile the ashes, but didn't. I figured they had stolen the ashes.

Thanks RagingCyclone for backing me up.  I think you're right.  You have to trick Kolgrim into thinking you'll defile the ashes.  This also changes on how you get the gong to call the dragon or the horn.  My son always plays it this way.  I never knew that you could trick Kolgrim until he told me about it.  So Kolgrim is the key on how that turns out and if you decide to defile the ashes or not. 

[whykikyouwhy]

@LobselVith8 - It's the "previously established facts" aspect to the definition that has fluidity, imo. As players, we only know what we see through our respective playthroughs technically. So yeah, Leliana could be dead, but I still allow for the "seemingly" modifier before "dead." Just because my Warden didn't bury her or burn her body doesn't necessarily, in a world of magic and mystery, mean that her perceived death is or is not definitive. There are several plot arcs that fall into that category of "anything is possible" based on the simple fact that we only see a certain amount - we don't know everything there is to know.

People have said Flemeth is a retcon, but her appearance in DA2 may be easier for most to swallow and flex the possibilities of her escape because 1. She talks about the amulet and Morrrigan, and 2. She is a creature of vast power, therefore anything may be possible with her. So she qualifies as the "we don't know enough" one way or the other.

Why I personally disagree with certain things being retcon is that the definition doesn't take into consideration that things may have happened that the player simply does not know at this juncture. It relies on assumption. "I saw her die, therefore she is dead and should be dead." But that doesn't account for what may have happened after the warden left the temple. Is it a case of "I didn't see it, therefore it didn't happen?"

I'm simply willing to wait this out and see how it all pans out - how Bioware will craft the rest of the story. That's where I am putting my faith. Some may see that as foolish...if so, ok. Whatever. That's how I'm handling my investment with the DA-verse. If I'm disappointed somewhere down the line, I'll deal with it and drown my temporary sorrows in whiskey and/or ice cream. No big deal.

@RagingCyclone - I think the above sort of addresses your points as well. I see how there are gaps, yes, especially based on companion recruitment. Maybe the strings tied certain arcs and characters together weren't cinched up as tightly as possible. I guess I give games a bit of slack in that regard because I'm trying to see the sum total and big picture. Thus far, any inconsistencies have not been jarring for me. But again, that's just me and how I play. And how I weave my head canon.

[RagingCyclone]

EvaliaRavenHart- yeah...I found that part with Kolgrim by accident. It was with a dice warden I found that little tidbit. (dice rolls determined what that warden did) That PT I found a lot of stuff I normally would not have. Like she turned Leliana away in Lothering, and I found out by talking to people like the chantry sisters and Ser Bryant that Leliana had packed her things and left the chantry before you meet her in Dane's Refuge.

whykikyouwhy-what you are talking about I can agree with, but it's also why my canon warden will not progress any further. If something comes along in her story that makes sense and ties things together then I might re-up him into the saga, but for now he and Leliana are living the good life (as can be expected anyway) as Teyrn and Teyrna of Gwaren.
And as for Flemeth being a retcon, she is not even close to being one. Morrigan herself tells you Flemeth is not truly dead and fully expects her to return to pursue her. "I will kill her again and again if need be" and Morrigan is not even sure what form Flemeth will return in.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 08 septembre 2011 - 07:26 .

[Robhuzz]

UltiPup wrote...

It is more likely that because of Leliana's adventures with the Warden that the Seekers picked her up. A Sister and an assassin? Perfect spy.

Let's not forget that Divine justina is actually revered mother Dorothea, the revered mother who saved Leliana in her own DLC. She was the reason why Leliana joined the chantry in the first place. It's very likely Justina just called upon Leliana at a time, since she knew of her past as well.

[Wulfram]

The game in Origins is unequivocal about Leliana being dead. Her codex, which isn't ascribed to any in character author and thus doesn't have an unreliable narrator, simply and straightforwardly says she "was killed alongside the guardian".

Flemeth is different. Her codex says "She was slain at Morrigan's behest. At least apparently..." and Morrigan herself suggests she's probably not dead, or at least won't stay so.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Wulfram - But aren't codex entries written by various NPCs and notables? Who wrote of Leliana's "death?" Some lowly page scribbling out the stories dictated by the Hero of Fereldan? A chantry sister in mourning? Brother Geniviti (prior to his death)? For the latter, how do we know he wasn't sipping any lyrium-laced brandy when penning his grand essays?

Just throwing out there the possibility that the source of that information could very well be suspect. Perhaps hyperbole ran rampant.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Wulfram - But aren't codex entries written by various NPCs and notables? Who wrote of Leliana's "death?" Some lowly page scribbling out the stories dictated by the Hero of Fereldan? A chantry sister in mourning? Brother Geniviti (prior to his death)? For the latter, how do we know he wasn't sipping any lyrium-laced brandy when penning his grand essays?

Just throwing out there the possibility that the source of that information could very well be suspect. Perhaps hyperbole ran rampant.

Seeing how the companion codexes and the character codexes are written from the Warden, I'd say the author is pretty reliable. Like it's been stated, Flemmeth's death was left questionable, both by Morrigan and her codex.

Leliana's codex did not say "she died....for now..."

[whykikyouwhy]

@PuppyFlavour - I think that's entirely possible. And Orlesian bards being sneaky pretty much sums it up for many scenarios/variables.

@Skadi_the_Evil_Elf - If the Warden wrote that, then that allows for the possibility that something happened off-camera and behind the curtain that the Warden was not aware of. There was a body and some seemingly defiled ashes, and thus the Warden went on his/her merry way without looking back. So the absence of a "for now" does not, for me, cement the deal, since there was no similar conversation with Morrigan to inject doubt to the Warden's perspective.