262 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Wulfram - But aren't codex entries written by various NPCs and notables? Who wrote of Leliana's "death?" Some lowly page scribbling out the stories dictated by the Hero of Fereldan? A chantry sister in mourning? Brother Geniviti (prior to his death)? For the latter, how do we know he wasn't sipping any lyrium-laced brandy when penning his grand essays?

Just throwing out there the possibility that the source of that information could very well be suspect. Perhaps hyperbole ran rampant.

Some codexes are attributed to specific people or sources - many are indeed attributed to Brother Genitiv - and are thus subject to the possibility of having unreliable narrators. 

Leliana's codex isn't attributed to anyone.  It is not an in character statement, it is a way for the game to give us information.  It shouldn't lie to us.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@RagingCyclone - Just so I'm certain I understand, are you saying that the "Seeker" aspect is the retcon? If so, who's to say whether or not the order was envisioned during the creation of DA:O or not. I'm sure there were several plot points mapped out that weren't integrated but were meant to be revealed later in the storyline. Just because the order isn't mentioned in DA:O doesn't mean that it didn't exist. It may just not have fit into the timeline of Origins' plot.

As for the amulet, I always took it to be "seeker" - lower case, as in a seeker of the Light/the Maker. But yeah, that was the original impetus for this thread, I believe.

The conversation that Alistiar has with the warden about Templars and the Chantry could hint at this.  Notice that Alistiar makes it clear that the chantry is a military might.  All military organizations have a spy network.  It's the way that Alistair says this, he is warning a player to be alert where the chantry is involved. The tone of his voice implies be careful in dealing with the chantry, be on your guard. The Grand Cleric warns the Divine has more at her disposal than just Templars and I'm assuming Seekers.   To say that the Seekers are a retcon is silly, the same as saying that Flemeth is a retcon.  When I killed Flemeth and Morrgian told me she might not be dead, then I knew she would popup back in the story in the future. 

I'm assuming both Alistiar and the Grand Cleric were alluding to: spies, rogues, bards, and maybe crows as members of the secret orders within the chantry.  The chantry could have other secret orders that we don't even know about.  In DA2 we learned about the seekers and there could be other secret orders that might pop up later.  We'll have to wait and see.

@ Whykikyouwhy, your comment reminded me of how Alistair talks about this.  This is the reason that I responded.  I agree with you that the Seekers have been a part of the chantry all along.  DA2 is just the first that we heard about them.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 08 septembre 2011 - 09:21 .

[aries1001]

Do we know for a fact that Leliana was killed in DA:O? We know that she is left for dead in the mountains to die, and the Warden (male of female) then hurries out out of mountains in which the Sacred Ashes are found. (and as a certain dwarf mentions, the whole area is packed and filled with lyrium...)

Certain animals as well as people have survived massacres by playing dead, bards do have the feign death talent. What I'm suggesting here is that Leliana did exactly this in those mountains, feigned her death. In an area full of lyrium. The problem people have with this, I think, seem to come from the finisning move trailer in which they, if they choose to kill her, cut her head off. I can understand this; Highlander movie, however, DA:O isn't...[In Highlander the only way to perma death the immortals are by beheading them...]. All this about Leliana being death in some people's playthrough could just be rumours or hearsay or the Warden's thoughts about how it all played out....

As for people saying it is a retcon:
A retcon would be, I think more like what happened in the Batman 1989 movie in which the Joker is the one killing Bruce Wayne's parents. In the lore and in the Batman universe, this is simply not true. There is no evidence in this fictional world that Joker killed Batman's parents. Or that that 'the ghost who walks' (the phantom in that african country or indian country?) father survived the shripwreck in the 16th century. Or that Spiderman never got bitten by a radio-active spider, but got injected by a needle instead.

So do we now for fact that Leliana is dead?

Just as a FYI: In my playthrough, I never killed Leliana, so she was nd is very much alive. Seeing her again in DA2 was a) a nice surprice and makes sense since she knew the warden.

As for her being a spy, yes I think she was a spy way before the Warden met her, possibly not for the
Chantry, but maybe for her employer back in Orlais. And what better place for a spy to stay in a little not noticiable Inn in Lothering waiting for something to happen. And also, I never quite believed her story about being a bard, and then changing her (evil) ways. There just was a a certain tone in her voice when she told me, or rather my Warden, this; I did not quite believe her because of this.

edit: formatting and spelling

Modifié par aries1001, 08 septembre 2011 - 09:28 .

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, because I didn't kill Leliana for my Surana Warden, so it doesn't contradict my choice to see her in Kirkwall.

Fair enough, though now I have to wonder why you're arguing with me in the first place.

Because I don't agree with rectons when it comes to a narrative that's supposed to import previous player choices. This isn't Soul Reaver, where one of Kain's choices in Blood Omen was made canon for a narrative that didn't import previous player choices, this is a game that was advertised as importing the choices made by the players and not having a universal canon.

It doesn't really impact me personally because I never killed Leliana, Anders, or Justice, but I'm not in favor of ignoring player choices simply because it's convenient for the developers. I still remembered how jarring it was that absolutely no one even commented on the Magi boon during Awakening and Witch Hunt, how the narrative acted like my Surana Warden never asked for the emancipation of his people, and it bothered me. I can certainly understand how fans who made choices that were ignored or rectonned feel.

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It would have been better to have a new character for the scenerio where Leliana is killed instead of rectonning Leliana being alive, if you want my honest opinion. It would've avoided alienating people who feel like their choices don't matter.

1) There's a few reasons I can think of for why Leliana is in the final scene with Cassandra, but I'll just give one: having her appear there lends that scene more dramatic weight than if Cassandra was chatting with some random flunkie. 
2) The people who killed Leliana are, as I said, in the minority, as the circumstances that allow you to do so are fairly narrow. Why should they be accomodated over the majority?

1) I don't see the dramatic weight to seeing a character those player killed now alive.

2) Why should their choices be ignored simply because everyone didn't kill Leliana? I didn't kill Leliana, but that doesn't mean I think their choice should be ignored. Why shouldn't their respective choice be accomodated in a narrative that's supposed to import their choices? They were paying money for a product that was advertised as importing their choices from Dragon Age: Origins, the same as I did.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

PuppyFlavour wrote...

The author may be reliable, but since there's nothing afterwards that refutes Leliana's death, the Warden should have no reason to doubt that she is truly dead. With Flemeth, the situation is different - not only is she a super-powerful old witch who implies in your confrontation with her that she has tricked death before, she has a daughter who herself states that her mother's death is unlikely. There, the Warden has plenty of reason to express doubt in the codex entry.

Of course. There is no reason for the Warden to believe Leliana is anything but dead, and there's no reasons given why she should remain anything but dead.

The choice being retconned for some people makes alot of others worry that other choices to kill off or destroy something will later get retconned, and nullfify the choice made. Like for example, lets say in a playthrough, playthrough, decide to spare Loghain, and have Alistair executed as a threat to the crown and stability of Ferelden. Now you, as a player, make this choice, believing in doing so, Alistair will be dead, and thus, a threat due to his bloodline will be permanently ended. Then, suddenly, in a future playthrough, you discover Alistair to be alive and well. Your choice to execute him did not stick. he got better, the Maker did it,  wizard did it, choose lame excuse.

Its something that worries some of us, that choices of which characters lived or died, and any consequences associated with it, will get retconned or tossed out the window.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

PuppyFlavour wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Wulfram - But aren't codex entries written by various NPCs and notables? Who wrote of Leliana's "death?" Some lowly page scribbling out the stories dictated by the Hero of Fereldan? A chantry sister in mourning? Brother Geniviti (prior to his death)? For the latter, how do we know he wasn't sipping any lyrium-laced brandy when penning his grand essays?

Just throwing out there the possibility that the source of that information could very well be suspect. Perhaps hyperbole ran rampant.

Maybe Leliana wrote it herself? Orlesian bards are sneaky like that.

This is bloody brilliant.  If you thought you killed her, then it would stand to reason that she would want everyone to think that she is dead.  Especially, the warden and party, thus writing up that she actually died, when she didn't.   I can see Leliana doing this, writing her own codex entry.  I never knew that players thought the warden wrote the companion codex entries.  Hmmm, interesting.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

PuppyFlavour wrote...

The author may be reliable, but since there's nothing afterwards that refutes Leliana's death, the Warden should have no reason to doubt that she is truly dead. With Flemeth, the situation is different - not only is she a super-powerful old witch who implies in your confrontation with her that she has tricked death before, she has a daughter who herself states that her mother's death is unlikely. There, the Warden has plenty of reason to express doubt in the codex entry.

Of course. There is no reason for the Warden to believe Leliana is anything but dead, and there's no reasons given why she should remain anything but dead.

The choice being retconned for some people makes alot of others worry that other choices to kill off or destroy something will later get retconned, and nullfify the choice made. Like for example, lets say in a playthrough, playthrough, decide to spare Loghain, and have Alistair executed as a threat to the crown and stability of Ferelden. Now you, as a player, make this choice, believing in doing so, Alistair will be dead, and thus, a threat due to his bloodline will be permanently ended. Then, suddenly, in a future playthrough, you discover Alistair to be alive and well. Your choice to execute him did not stick. he got better, the Maker did it,  wizard did it, choose lame excuse.

Its something that worries some of us, that choices of which characters lived or died, and any consequences associated with it, will get retconned or tossed out the window.

Well we didn't actually see Alistair get beheaded only taken away.  The same with Anora we only saw her being taken away.  In Alistair's case in making him a drunk or continue on as a warden these choices did stick.  Same with Alistair and Leliana both if you killed them - they have the potential to be alive off screen. 

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because I don't agree with rectons when it comes to a narrative that's supposed to import previous player choices.

Eh. I don't mind setting aside some player decisions when they don't serve the narrative or when they don't please the majority of the fanbase. (Or when those decisions are kinda stupid.)

Case in point:  the writers decided that Anders had an important role in the story of DA2, and by a happy coincidence, Anders was also (arguably) the most popular NPC from Awakening. But what about those players who sold out Anders to the templars? They constitute only a small portion of the fanbase, and removing Anders from the equation screws up the entire plot of DA2. So who should be prioritized?

To me, satisfying a few people who didn't like Anders is less important than pleasing the ones who did, even if that means a few irate people will spend all their time ranting on the Internet over how butthurt they are.

To an extent, I believe it's up to the players to make decisions that fit the narrative. I would never play a character who wasn't interested in stopping the Blight because, to me, that's self-defeating. I might as well throw my copy of Origins at the wall and go sulk in the corner. Similarly, I wouldn't play a Hawke who has no stake in the mage/templar conflict because that's what the game is about.

Since the plot of DA2 didn't contradict any of my decisions from Origins, I really have no complaints, and I really don't care if other people do. Because the narrative trumps them anyway.

LobselVith8 wrote...

1) I don't see the dramatic weight to seeing a character those player killed now alive.

You DON'T? I've always been shocked by the sight of dead people coming to life, but you must live in a rougher neighbourhood than I do.

But really, you don't see how the appearance of a character from a previous game carries more weight than the appearance of some random stooge who works for Cassandra? You don't really have a good sense for drama, then.

LobselVith8 wrote...

2) Why should their choices be ignored simply because everyone didn't kill Leliana? I didn't kill Leliana, but that doesn't mean I think their choice should be ignored. Why shouldn't their respective choice be accomodated in a narrative that's supposed to import their choices? They were paying money for a product that was advertised as importing their choices from Dragon Age: Origins, the same as I did.

Because the overall narrative is more important than accomodating every piddly little decision that every player may make. There is no way to please everyone.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:26 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...


Well we didn't actually see Alistair get beheaded only taken away.  The same with Anora we only saw her being taken away.  In Alistair's case in making him a drunk or continue on as a warden these choices did stick.  Same with Alistair and Leliana both if you killed them - they have the potential to be alive off screen. 

Yet their codexes reflect this, and so do the endgame epilogue slides. There was nothing to suggest that that descision would not matter in the future.

[LobselVith8]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ Lobselsith8,

Excuse me, but I did get that slide. Just because you didn't get one doesn't mean I'm a liar.

I didn't call you a liar, I said I thought you were mistaken, because I've seen all the slides, and none of them state that the ashes were stolen. I've also spoken to a modder about the Urn who has gone through the game files and listed all the endings, when I was trying to find out about a bug associated with the endings for the Urn of Sacred Ashes when I was trying to decide my "canon" run. The same modder who told me about the several endings to the elven Bann Warden, who told me about the bugged Magi Origin, who told me about the humans taking the surname "Wolf" in honor of the Lady of the Forest. It's simply that she never listed such an ending when she listed the possible outcomes for the Urn of Sacred Ashes. I wasn't trying to say you were intentionally lying, or anything like that. It's not as though any of us are infallible.

The Sacred Ashes of Andraste endings listed on the wiki also have no reference to the Urn of Sacred Ashes being stolen by anyone:

- If The Warden allowed Brother Genitivi to mount an expedition to the Urn, but did not kill the High Dragon, the Urn disappears without a trace and falls into myth once more.
- If The Warden allowed Brother Genitivi to mount an expedition to the Urn, and killed the High Dragon, the temple becomes a mecca for pilgrims.
- If The Warden killed Brother Genitivi, and killed the High Dragon, rumours abound about the Urn of Ashes involvement in curing Arl Eamon, and eventually pilgrimage is allowed. (This ending also occurs if the dragon is killed and Genitivi is sent back to Denerim and then never spoken to again.)
- If The Warden killed Brother Genitivi, but did not kill the High Dragon, the Chantry announces the discovery of the ashes, but the dragon will eventually get tired of pilgrims and will go on a rampage that will destroy the temple and possibly the ashes, as they are never found, while the dragon looks for a new haven.
- If The Warden defiled the Sacred Ashes for Kolgrim, Brother Genitivi announces discovery of the Ashes, drawing enormous attention from scholars. Expeditions to the ruins found nothing and several years later his work is declared fiction. He commits suicide. The Dragon appears by winter, rampaging across the countryside, rumors are heard of it being worshiped as Andraste by cultists, efforts to find the lair or the ashes ultimately fail as the cultists rapidly gain converts.
- If The Warden defiled the Sacred Ashes for Kolgrim but then kills him and does not kill the High Dragon, rumours about the Urn of Ashes involvement in curing Arl Eamon spread and people begin to mount expeditions to find it. After finding nothing but a High Dragon and many failed attempts to slay the Dragon, the expeditions are decided to be too dangerous to continue. The Dragon eventually goes west to find a new Haven but goes on a rampage beforehand leaving nothing but ruins of the temple. Later expeditions and digs in the ruins found nothing. Some believe that the Urn is still in the ruins while some say it was destroyed, others wonder if it ever existed at all, the Urn falls into myth once more.
- If Brother Gentivi did not come with the Warden while killing The Cult, then the Urn will disappear, even if you killed the High Dragon and allowed pilgrimage.

Based on my experience, I don't recall ever having seen an Epilogue where the Urn is referenced being stolen, which is why I asked if maybe you were talking about the 'High Dragon being alive' Epilogue slide.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I don't appreciate the reference that I lied about it. I've seen other players get different slides with different outcomes from what I got because of their different decisions. Once again those slides are heresay. They are rumors according to the developers themselves. They may or maynot be true. The slide did say that the ashes had been stolen when I killed Brother Genitivi. As I said before I didn't kill Leliana in that playthrough.  I got the slide by killing the brother but kept Leliana alive because I didn't defile the ashes.  I've never defiled the ashes. 

It's easy for the developers to say it's nothing more than heresay now when they changed entire endings to suit their sequel, such as Cullen's fate as the new Knight-Commander of the Ferelden Circle.
 

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I've also never seen anyone on this forum ever say that Brother Genitivi kills himself because the ashes have been defiled. I'm taking you at your word since I've never played that way, notice I didn't call you a liar just because I haven't played it this way. What lack of consideration to another player. Just because they got a different outcome from you. That is just rude because you can't agree with others who say it's not a retcon. We all get the point you see it as retcon, I don't. You have your opinion and I have mine.

It's not rude to point out that a recton isn't a matter of opinion. Changing the narrative for people who killed Leliana by saying she's now alive is a recton; it's stating she's not dead anymore, which is a change from the prior narrative where she was a corpse.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I don't know if I have a screen shot of that slide or not. If I have one I'll post it. I also got a screenshot with two Morrigan's in the room with Alistair doing the DR. Just because I don't post it does this make me a lair? I have over 7,000 screenshots so it will take me time to find it if I have a screenshot of the slide.

If you do, I'd appreciate seeing it, because I've never personally heard of it or seen it. And again, I never said you were a liar, and I never stated you were intentionally lying. I apologize if I caused you any offense.

[RagingCyclone]

@thats1evildude-so your suggestion to say that if a person's import doesn't fit the next game then that person played the game wrong? Even if those choices exist? Sorry...I don't appreciate people telling me how I should play the game because then it's a matter of why did I play it in the first place.

[whykikyouwhy]

Wulfram wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Wulfram - But aren't codex entries written by various NPCs and notables? Who wrote of Leliana's "death?" Some lowly page scribbling out the stories dictated by the Hero of Fereldan? A chantry sister in mourning? Brother Geniviti (prior to his death)? For the latter, how do we know he wasn't sipping any lyrium-laced brandy when penning his grand essays?

Just throwing out there the possibility that the source of that information could very well be suspect. Perhaps hyperbole ran rampant.

Some codexes are attributed to specific people or sources - many are indeed attributed to Brother Genitiv - and are thus subject to the possibility of having unreliable narrators. 

Leliana's codex isn't attributed to anyone.  It is not an in character statement, it is a way for the game to give us information.  It shouldn't lie to us.

Perhaps I muddled my initial response. While codexes could be peppered with exaggeration or false information, I didn't mean to imply that they were all riddled with lies. They could just simply report what is known at that moment, by that one person credited with writing it.

So, with Leliana's codex, it has no author, but it could still be a photograph/freeze frame of a moment in time. At that moment, with imaginary ink to fantasy parchment, Leliana was thought to be, by all reason, shape and form, dead. No longer romping about Fereldan weaving tales and singings songs. But that does not exclude the possibility that there was more to the story...what happened after the Warden left the temple, etc.

So no, it doesn't lie to us. But it does not necessarily provide us with the larger picture at hand.

Again, this is just postulating. I think there are reasonable explanations for why she may still be alive and kicking *ss and taking names. But, the true story is something that I think will come out with a sound explanation...when it's the right time for us to know.

[LobselVith8]

aries1001 wrote...

Do we know for a fact that Leliana was killed in DA:O?

Only for the respective Wardens who killed her. Saying that the man (or woman) who killed the Archdemon wasn't able to tell that a single person was killed is stretching believability. It's not as though The Warden is a novice at this, after all.

aries1001 wrote...

As for people saying it is a retcon:
A retcon would be, I think more like what happened in the Batman 1989 movie in which the Joker is the one killing Bruce Wayne's parents. In the lore and in the Batman universe, this is simply not true. There is no evidence in this fictional world that Joker killed Batman's parents. Or that that 'the ghost who walks' (the phantom in that african country or indian country?) father survived the shripwreck in the 16th century. Or that Spiderman never got bitten by a radio-active spider, but got injected by a needle instead.

Or "Leliana is now alive, despite the fact that you killed her." It's not like Dragon Age hasn't rectonned other decisions before; Oghren is alive if he was killed, Anders and Justice met if Anders was never recruited and Justice was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes. It's not like Leliana being killed and "ressurected" was the only time a recton has happened for the narrative of Dragon Age.

aries1001 wrote...

So do we now for fact that Leliana is dead?

It's no different than asking if the Archdemon is really dead, or if Loghain is really dead for those who killed him at the Landsmeet. Or Wynne for people who had their respective Warden killed her.

aries1001 wrote...

Just as a FYI: In my playthrough, I never killed Leliana, so she was nd is very much alive. Seeing her again in DA2 was a) a nice surprice and makes sense since she knew the warden.

I wasn't happy with Leliana's appearance in "Faith" because of what she said. I'll leave it at that.

aries1001 wrote...

As for her being a spy, yes I think she was a spy way before the Warden met her, possibly not for the
Chantry, but maybe for her employer back in Orlais. And what better place for a spy to stay in a little not noticiable Inn in Lothering waiting for something to happen. And also, I never quite believed her story about being a bard, and then changing her (evil) ways. There just was a a certain tone in her voice when she told me, or rather my Warden, this; I did not quite believe her because of this.

Leliana's Song does imply that she was being deceptive about her history in Origins, so I wouldn't be surprised if she was a spy all along.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Thanks Skadi_The_Evil_Elf

Thanks for letting me know about the codex entries. I haven't killed any of my companions off nor looked up the codex entries on the wikis. I do understand what players are saying in regards to killing Leliana or not. No, the developers never said the choices wouldn't matter. So I do understand players who did this and their anger over this decision.

Me and others are only saying given the lore and with healing magic being available in the game and the location there will probably be a reasonable explanantion as to why Leliana survived. We're waiting to see what the developers decide to do or the reason they will give. If the developers don't give a satisfactory explanation, then I guess these players could call foul.

@ Lobselvith8

Raging Cyclone also confirmed that he too also got this slide that the ashes were stolen. The only way to get this slide is for the warden to trick Kolgrim and say you will defile the urn, this is the easy way to get to the urn. You lie to Kolgrim if you don't plan on killing Leliana and you want an easy fight. You have to kill Kolgrim if you don't defile the ashes when you told him that you would, he confronts you outside when you come out. You fight him outside of the temple instead of inside, this is when a player gets the gong to call the dragon. If you kill him inside the cave before coming to the gauntlet then you get the horn to call the dragon and have to fight two mages with him. Outside he only has warriors and rogues with him.

We both got this slide because of our decisions being: Kolgrim, The High Dragon, Brother Genitivi are all dead, and Leliana is alive. In this situation only those in the warden's party know about the urn. This means only remaining cultist that my party hasn't killed or someone in my party stole or caused the urn to disappear.

Even if the slide states the word disappear, means someone took the urn. Which means stole the urn from the temple. My slide from way back said stolen, not disappeared.

With the new patches since DAO was released could mean that these files were changed within the toolset and slide files. My slide did say stolen because I remember rereading the slide and my first thought was Leliana or Zevran stole the urn because one or both of them was in my party. Raging Cyclone reminded me that the cultist could have taken the urn and they left with it.

You did imply that I lied about it, you never said mistaken.

Ever notice when you update with a patch that the files are being updated or changed when they are installed. This is a possible explanation on the files in the toolset. DAO has been out for nearly 21/2 to 3 years with 3-4 patches.

Just because it's not on the wiki doesn't mean this information isn't true. Recently the wiki doesn't contain proper information because anyone can edit either wiki to their own opinion and not fact from the game. I've seen in the past year where correct information was posted and it has since been changed.

You never said I was mistaken, you implied that I lied about it.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 09 septembre 2011 - 01:22 .

[Rifneno]

The slide thing is interesting. I never knew that was a possible outcome. I wonder if there's more than most of us aren't aware of that are locked behind obscure requirements (or bugs). And yes, it's certainly possible that a patch removed it. The Witch Hunt patch removed the epilogue slide where Cullen goes insane and winds up a roving serial killer, for obvious reasons.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Rifneno wrote...

The slide thing is interesting. I never knew that was a possible outcome. I wonder if there's more than most of us aren't aware of that are locked behind obscure requirements (or bugs). And yes, it's certainly possible that a patch removed it. The Witch Hunt patch removed the epilogue slide where Cullen goes insane and winds up a roving serial killer, for obvious reasons.

Really, I never knew this could happen to Cullen. I could see this happening to him. 

[Rifneno]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Really, I never knew this could happen to Cullen. I could see this happening to him. 

If the Warden is a mage, saves the Circle, and gives it its freedom as their boon.  Cullen loses it and murders some apprentices before the other templars can restrain him, but he escapes the tower and becomes a roaming psychopath.  Cullen's fans love to forget that.  Well, that and when Cullen's writer said that any relationship because Cullen and a female mage warden would be "very short, and very violent."  Remember girls, he's a sweetheart because he has nice hair or something! 

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

LOL, Well he does have nice hair in DA2.

I've never asked for that boon as a reward for any of my mages so I didn't know this.

[LobselVith8]

I have done those steps, ElvaliaRavenHart, but the only Epilogue slide that showed up was the Chantry finding the Urn of Sacred Ashes regardless of Genitivi's death; it's the same ending that showed for me in another run where Genitivi is advised to go to Denerim and never spoken to again, following the same steps where Kolgrim is killed outside the ruins of the temple.

[RagingCyclone]

Yeah, the epilogue slides are intersting . I usually get one about Teagan marrying Kaitlyn, but I have also heard there is another where he marries Bella. That is one I have never seen. There are several different sliders I imagine many have not even thought of. I don't remember the details, but the one for leaving Redcliffe to overrun by the walking dead was an interesting one.

[RagingCyclone]

Lobelsvith8...it was there ...I remember the slide. And I know wiki's are only about 80% accurate because anyone can edit them. My guess is the list is incomplete on the wiki.

[LobselVith8]

Raging, I've followed those steps, and haven't seen that epilogue slide. I've also spoken with a modder who looked through the files of Dragon Age a while back, and she never told me about that particular ending when she was listing the outcomes for the Urn scenario, so it's not simply an issue about the information listed on the unofficial wikipedia. I would be interested to see that particular Epilogue slide if you have a picture of it.

[Rifneno]

I've never gotten the slide where Teagan marries either of them. Never understood why. I figured it was because I usually helped both and the script didn't have a default built in if both were helped. Could also be some other variables I guess... Bella has some dialogue that suggests it might have an impact on what she does, i.e. whether the Warden asks her to promise not to end up in another place like Lloyd's bar, just her thanks, or a kiss. Likewise there might be something with Kaitlyn about that bad (not badass, just bad) sword. Could even be Teagan himself, something the Warden does that could affect his fate like Eamon losing Isolde and not wanting to go back to Redcliffe.