163 réponses à ce sujet

[Barry Bathernak]

Maverick827 wrote...

When I think of a repository for intelligent literary analysis, I think of YouTube.

you should search for more things since chances are good you will learn somthing.

[LeBurns]

I love this guy. Now tagged on my YouTube list.

I listened all all 5 initial vids, then all his other DA2 vids. Then his ME2 vids. I actually started taking notes when he went out to prove that E=mc(2).

Much of it is opinionated, but he does back up a lot of what he says. I wonder if the DA developers have ever listened to him. I know I would hate to hear him talk about any game I made, but at the same time it would be a huge tool for learning and making better next time.

[Zeevico]

Great points.

[Bryy_Miller]

LeBurns wrote...
 I wonder if the DA developers have ever listened to him.

I keep seeing people post this. I don't think it really matters, quite frankly. Devs are not morons, no matter what fans of any game think. The idea that any one fan's criticism will "turn the tide" is unrealistic.

[Barry Bathernak]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

LeBurns wrote...
 I wonder if the DA developers have ever listened to him.

I keep seeing people post this. I don't think it really matters, quite frankly. Devs are not morons, no matter what fans of any game think. The idea that any one fan's criticism will "turn the tide" is unrealistic.

yes because selling something people wont like and not carring so you do it all over again doesn't make you a moran your just a fool,all hypotheticals ofcourse im not using real people.

[Bryy_Miller]

Barry Bathernak wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

LeBurns wrote...
 I wonder if the DA developers have ever listened to him.

I keep seeing people post this. I don't think it really matters, quite frankly. Devs are not morons, no matter what fans of any game think. The idea that any one fan's criticism will "turn the tide" is unrealistic.

yes because selling something people wont like and not carring so you do it all over again doesn't make you a moran your just a fool,all hypotheticals ofcourse im not using real people.

BioWare's target is not simply Smudboy. It's everyone.

[chunkyman]

This guy makes great points, I would hope that the DA2 team take his points to heart.

Modifié par chunkyman, 08 septembre 2011 - 07:34 .

[KLUME777]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Barry Bathernak wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

LeBurns wrote...
 I wonder if the DA developers have ever listened to him.

I keep seeing people post this. I don't think it really matters, quite frankly. Devs are not morons, no matter what fans of any game think. The idea that any one fan's criticism will "turn the tide" is unrealistic.

yes because selling something people wont like and not carring so you do it all over again doesn't make you a moran your just a fool,all hypotheticals ofcourse im not using real people.

BioWare's target is not simply Smudboy. It's everyone.

You just pointed out the problem.

[Knight Templar_]

Smudboy, I really dislike him. The guys an arse and doesn't take criticism of his own work well.

[Barry Bathernak]

Knight Templar wrote...

Smudboy, I really dislike him. The guys an arse and doesn't take criticism of his own work well.

you mean when he defended his m.e.2 videos from the petty ramblings of the other guy.

[Knight Templar_]

Barry Bathernak wrote...

Knight Templar wrote...

Smudboy, I really dislike him. The guys an arse and doesn't take criticism of his own work well.

you mean when he defended his m.e.2 videos from the petty ramblings of the other guy.

Squee119?
I thought his response (squee) was lacking in many areas, I didn't watch all of Smudboys rebuttal but what I did see was fine, if presented in his usual "I'm better than you" style, which I can't fault him for because it's just how he talks.

No I mean he blocked me and deleted all my comments because I used the phrase "straight off the bat". At least that's what he claimed, before being blocked he would respond to a comment, then delete it and his own, only blocking me when I called him up on it.
In my  dealing with Smudboy he acted like a ******.

[Gravity Bun]

Funnily enough, it was actually smudboy's videos that prompted me to buy Dragon Age 2.

[LeBurns]

Gravity Bun wrote...

Funnily enough, it was actually smudboy's videos that prompted me to buy Dragon Age 2.

I can't even image how that worked out.

I alway read the negative/neutral reviews for games first.  Seems all the 10/10 and 9/10 reviews are just going to praise the game and are usually made by fans who would love the game no matter what.  I also avoid the 0/10 and 1/10 reviews and write them off as either trolls or basic haters.  The reviews that fall between 3/10 and 7/10 seem to give the best information and will actually point out the games pluses and minuses.  Then I can determine if those minuses are something I can ignore or live with, or are they game breakers for me.

Unfortunately DA2 had many, many game breakers in the reveiws I read.  Combined that with my own demo play and I knew that DA2 just wasn't for me, which I really hate since I really wanted more DAO.  Oh well.

Modifié par LeBurns, 09 septembre 2011 - 04:12 .

[BubbleDncr]

I watched part one and thought it was decent. But during part 2, I had to stop watching it. I don't agree with anything he said, and it was annoying to hear him talk about how there was no point to All That Remains.

It had a point, and I personally found it very emotionally moving. It seems to me like he's just a guy who didn't like DA2 as much as Origins, and this video is his means to try and justify his disappointment by sounding knowledgeable on the subject.

[Barry Bathernak]

BubbleDncr wrote...

I watched part one and thought it was decent. But during part 2, I had to stop watching it. I don't agree with anything he said, and it was annoying to hear him talk about how there was no point to All That Remains.

It had a point, and I personally found it very emotionally moving. It seems to me like he's just a guy who didn't like DA2 as much as Origins, and this video is his means to try and justify his disappointment by sounding knowledgeable on the subject.

1:it sounds like you dont agree with him because you dont want even belive anything he says since its different then you.
2:no one cares how the game made you feel since thats only YOUR opinion,and i only say this because you imply that if he feels its bad hes wrong but if i like it im right.

[Barry Bathernak]

Knight Templar wrote...

Barry Bathernak wrote...

Knight Templar wrote...

Smudboy, I really dislike him. The guys an arse and doesn't take criticism of his own work well.

you mean when he defended his m.e.2 videos from the petty ramblings of the other guy.

Squee119?
I thought his response (squee) was lacking in many areas, I didn't watch all of Smudboys rebuttal but what I did see was fine, if presented in his usual "I'm better than you" style, which I can't fault him for because it's just how he talks.

No I mean he blocked me and deleted all my comments because I used the phrase "straight off the bat". At least that's what he claimed, before being blocked he would respond to a comment, then delete it and his own, only blocking me when I called him up on it.
In my  dealing with Smudboy he acted like a ******.

you hate him because he blocked you and removed your comments,has it crossed your mind that he found you to be annoying and did what he is allowed to do on his page?

[Knight Templar_]

Barry Bathernak wrote...

you hate him because he blocked you and removed your comments,has it crossed your mind that he found you to be annoying and did what he is allowed to do on his page?

Do you understand what my point is?

I think he is a jerk, he acted like a jerk without any justification, he didn't say he disliked me or found me annoying to begin with, he just removed comments after responding to them. If he idsliked me why do that? Why then jusitfy blocking me so weakly?
He was being an ****, my opinion of him is that he is an **** and didn't like the points I rased. I will point out that other comments were left behind, but only those that praised him with generics such as "great video". This was back before many people took intrest.

That he is able to block and delete comments is in no way a reason to do so, saying "he can do whatever he wants with his channel" doesn't mean what he wants to do isn't prickish.

EDIT: I think I should be clear I agree with much/some of what Smudboys says, I think he takes his points a bit far here and there but most of his opinions have a solid grounding in fact, making any disagreement simply that. The best point he ever made was when he asked where we got a seeker drone for Moridn to study, I felt like a moron when I caught that my second run through because the game expected me not to notice, and I didn't. But some of what he says I find to be wrong, and when I pointed these things out he decided to remove such comments and eventually block me, that is not the act of a reasonable person open to discussion. 

Modifié par Knight Templar , 10 septembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[Barry Bathernak]

Knight Templar wrote...

Barry Bathernak wrote...

you hate him because he blocked you and removed your comments,has it crossed your mind that he found you to be annoying and did what he is allowed to do on his page?

Do you understand what my point is?

I think he is a jerk, he acted like a jerk without any justification, he didn't say he disliked me or found me annoying to begin with, he just removed comments after responding to them. If he idsliked me why do that? Why then jusitfy blocking me so weakly?
He was being an ****, my opinion of him is that he is an **** and didn't like the points I rased. I will point out that other comments were left behind, but only those that praised him with generics such as "great video". This was back before many people took intrest.

That he is able to block and delete comments is in no way a reason to do so, saying "he can do whatever he wants with his channel" doesn't mean what he wants to do isn't prickish.

EDIT: I think I should be clear I agree with much/some of what Smudboys says, I think he takes his points a bit far here and there but most of his opinions have a solid grounding in fact, making any disagreement simply that. The best point he ever made was when he asked where we got a seeker drone for Moridn to study, I felt like a moron when I caught that my second run through because the game expected me not to notice, and I didn't. But some of what he says I find to be wrong, and when I pointed these things out he decided to remove such comments and eventually block me, that is not the act of a reasonable person open to discussion. 

so people who are jerks now need a reason to be a jerk?also no poop he took your comments down and blocked you since he didn't want to see your critism since he doesn't have to since he is the admin of his own page and can use his admin powers since its not like he could deal with every fanboy that entered the door to his domain.

[Danyu]

I've seen better done written reviews on movies by the IGN website, which is pretty bad.

That's not an analysis or a review, that's someone whining the whole time with video clips of the game in the background.

[txgoldrush]

furryrage59 wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

While i agree DA2 has a fair few flaws that should have been done better Origins and its DLC has just as many flaws and is made even more horrendous by the fact it had a 3-4 year Dev cycle,hopefully the mistakes from both games will be rectified by DA3 but it would be unrealistic to expect them to please everyone when EA has their hands on the wallet and lets be honest EA has never been any good at doing anything other than Genre hybrids( notice in the tiger woods games how physics sometimes go out the window)

Alas whatever DA3 turns out to be im sure there will be many things that narks off the DAO fans
as the Fanbase is so much more polorized then any other group i've encounterd

Origins had nowhere near as many flaws as DA:2, that is a ridiculous thing to say.

yes it did....

The pacing problems are horrendous, the characters outside Alistair and somewhat Morrigan don't matter in th eplot, the plot lacks focus in the midgame, the plot is cliched as hell, Loghain is a very weak villian with illogical motives, the plot is very predictable, choices only matter in th eend for th emost part.

DAII had a overall great story but with rough edges that every RPG has (and it was rushed), could have it been even better? Yes....but the story is very unconventional and plays by different rules. Also the story was mismarketed, it NEVER really was about Hawke's "Rise To Power", it NEVER really was about his or her family either, it was about how much blame Hawke should take for the conflict. THATS the story. The story requires more attention being paid. In fact, what I thought were plot holes the first tome through was filled in my second playthrough.

The problems with the story was more around too much exposition of the first act, and the rushed nature of the third. The set up and the final mission was great (except for Orsino....but boy does DXHR's Zhao Yun Ru surpass him in shallowness) it just wasn't fleshed out enough and Meredith's motives are only talked about if the player sided with her at the beginning of the act.

And this smud..guy is an idiot....no foreshadowing for the sibling in the deep roads?...wow, what a moron (hint see scene before the deep roads). Doesn't realize Emeric was killed? Moron. Stopped watching during the second vid.

[esper]

txgoldrush wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

While i agree DA2 has a fair few flaws that should have been done better Origins and its DLC has just as many flaws and is made even more horrendous by the fact it had a 3-4 year Dev cycle,hopefully the mistakes from both games will be rectified by DA3 but it would be unrealistic to expect them to please everyone when EA has their hands on the wallet and lets be honest EA has never been any good at doing anything other than Genre hybrids( notice in the tiger woods games how physics sometimes go out the window)

Alas whatever DA3 turns out to be im sure there will be many things that narks off the DAO fans
as the Fanbase is so much more polorized then any other group i've encounterd

Origins had nowhere near as many flaws as DA:2, that is a ridiculous thing to say.

yes it did....

The pacing problems are horrendous, the characters outside Alistair and somewhat Morrigan don't matter in th eplot, the plot lacks focus in the midgame, the plot is cliched as hell, Loghain is a very weak villian with illogical motives, the plot is very predictable, choices only matter in th eend for th emost part.

DAII had a overall great story but with rough edges that every RPG has (and it was rushed), could have it been even better? Yes....but the story is very unconventional and plays by different rules. Also the story was mismarketed, it NEVER really was about Hawke's "Rise To Power", it NEVER really was about his or her family either, it was about how much blame Hawke should take for the conflict. THATS the story. The story requires more attention being paid. In fact, what I thought were plot holes the first tome through was filled in my second playthrough.

The problems with the story was more around too much exposition of the first act, and the rushed nature of the third. The set up and the final mission was great (except for Orsino....but boy does DXHR's Zhao Yun Ru surpass him in shallowness) it just wasn't fleshed out enough and Meredith's motives are only talked about if the player sided with her at the beginning of the act.

And this smud..guy is an idiot....no foreshadowing for the sibling in the deep roads?...wow, what a moron (hint see scene before the deep roads). Doesn't realize Emeric was killed? Moron. Stopped watching during the second vid.

About foreshadowing even if you don't get the hint by the mother-child scene before leaving the deep road, Carver at least looks sick briefly in the sandal scene (Don't know about Beth... she has never made it to the Deep with me.). Didn't realize Emeric was going to be killed? All right , I agree the guy doesn't know his plots - that was so obvious going to happen. The guy who no one takes seriously is the one who always gets killed in order to prove they were right and everyone else wrong - unless s/he is the main character in which case they are plotshielded.

[Barry Bathernak]

txgoldrush wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

While i agree DA2 has a fair few flaws that should have been done better Origins and its DLC has just as many flaws and is made even more horrendous by the fact it had a 3-4 year Dev cycle,hopefully the mistakes from both games will be rectified by DA3 but it would be unrealistic to expect them to please everyone when EA has their hands on the wallet and lets be honest EA has never been any good at doing anything other than Genre hybrids( notice in the tiger woods games how physics sometimes go out the window)

Alas whatever DA3 turns out to be im sure there will be many things that narks off the DAO fans
as the Fanbase is so much more polorized then any other group i've encounterd

Origins had nowhere near as many flaws as DA:2, that is a ridiculous thing to say.

yes it did....

The pacing problems are horrendous, the characters outside Alistair and somewhat Morrigan don't matter in th eplot, the plot lacks focus in the midgame, the plot is cliched as hell, Loghain is a very weak villian with illogical motives, the plot is very predictable, choices only matter in th eend for th emost part.

DAII had a overall great story but with rough edges that every RPG has (and it was rushed), could have it been even better? Yes....but the story is very unconventional and plays by different rules. Also the story was mismarketed, it NEVER really was about Hawke's "Rise To Power", it NEVER really was about his or her family either, it was about how much blame Hawke should take for the conflict. THATS the story. The story requires more attention being paid. In fact, what I thought were plot holes the first tome through was filled in my second playthrough.

The problems with the story was more around too much exposition of the first act, and the rushed nature of the third. The set up and the final mission was great (except for Orsino....but boy does DXHR's Zhao Yun Ru surpass him in shallowness) it just wasn't fleshed out enough and Meredith's motives are only talked about if the player sided with her at the beginning of the act.

And this smud..guy is an idiot....no foreshadowing for the sibling in the deep roads?...wow, what a moron (hint see scene before the deep roads). Doesn't realize Emeric was killed? Moron. Stopped watching during the second vid.

1.loghain is actually a good villian and it seems illogical because he is losing his mind and not thinking clearly.
2.d.a.2 story is not great in any form since its 3 short stories that are barely connect and and about 10 or so random subplots that end and restart again at random times.
3.there are still plot wholes no matter how times you play.
4.what it was about and what they advertised it about two different things but it was what they said it was going to be.
5.they also said it was a more personal story about hawke and his family so once again what they said and what it was are two different things.
6.you dont need to pay more attention to see the story isn't deep and doesn't always make sense.
7.the first act was do all the sidequest and then go to the deep roads,the second act is the best act but thats still not saying much since it doesn't always make sense,and act 3 was bad all around she wants all mages killed because they could all be blood mages so in repsonse the mages all use blood magic even if you side with the mages so uh DERP.
8.insulting him only helps suppourt the fact that you have no real argument and are just b.s.ing your argument.

[txgoldrush]

Barry Bathernak wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

While i agree DA2 has a fair few flaws that should have been done better Origins and its DLC has just as many flaws and is made even more horrendous by the fact it had a 3-4 year Dev cycle,hopefully the mistakes from both games will be rectified by DA3 but it would be unrealistic to expect them to please everyone when EA has their hands on the wallet and lets be honest EA has never been any good at doing anything other than Genre hybrids( notice in the tiger woods games how physics sometimes go out the window)

Alas whatever DA3 turns out to be im sure there will be many things that narks off the DAO fans
as the Fanbase is so much more polorized then any other group i've encounterd

Origins had nowhere near as many flaws as DA:2, that is a ridiculous thing to say.

yes it did....

The pacing problems are horrendous, the characters outside Alistair and somewhat Morrigan don't matter in th eplot, the plot lacks focus in the midgame, the plot is cliched as hell, Loghain is a very weak villian with illogical motives, the plot is very predictable, choices only matter in th eend for th emost part.

DAII had a overall great story but with rough edges that every RPG has (and it was rushed), could have it been even better? Yes....but the story is very unconventional and plays by different rules. Also the story was mismarketed, it NEVER really was about Hawke's "Rise To Power", it NEVER really was about his or her family either, it was about how much blame Hawke should take for the conflict. THATS the story. The story requires more attention being paid. In fact, what I thought were plot holes the first tome through was filled in my second playthrough.

The problems with the story was more around too much exposition of the first act, and the rushed nature of the third. The set up and the final mission was great (except for Orsino....but boy does DXHR's Zhao Yun Ru surpass him in shallowness) it just wasn't fleshed out enough and Meredith's motives are only talked about if the player sided with her at the beginning of the act.

And this smud..guy is an idiot....no foreshadowing for the sibling in the deep roads?...wow, what a moron (hint see scene before the deep roads). Doesn't realize Emeric was killed? Moron. Stopped watching during the second vid.

1.loghain is actually a good villian and it seems illogical because he is losing his mind and not thinking clearly.
2.d.a.2 story is not great in any form since its 3 short stories that are barely connect and and about 10 or so random subplots that end and restart again at random times.
3.there are still plot wholes no matter how times you play.
4.what it was about and what they advertised it about two different things but it was what they said it was going to be.
5.they also said it was a more personal story about hawke and his family so once again what they said and what it was are two different things.
6.you dont need to pay more attention to see the story isn't deep and doesn't always make sense.
7.the first act was do all the sidequest and then go to the deep roads,the second act is the best act but thats still not saying much since it doesn't always make sense,and act 3 was bad all around she wants all mages killed because they could all be blood mages so in repsonse the mages all use blood magic even if you side with the mages so uh DERP.
8.insulting him only helps suppourt the fact that you have no real argument and are just b.s.ing your argument.

1. Meredith can be described that way too. In fact, despite the insanity from the artifiact, she is justified in her cause. Loghain isn't, he is just an idiot.
2. The stories do connect, you haven't been paying attention. Not only do that influence things later, these storys actually converge. Notice how the Sheparding Wolves and the Unbriddled Rescue plotlines converge in Following the Qun. Its far from random, its just unconventional. This isn't Legend of Mana. Also, the stories connect in theme as well. Really DAO is a bunch of random stories in the midgame!!!!!
3. Not very many if you fully explore the game.
4. Just because the game is marketed one way doesn't mean its just like it. In fact, the blame should go to the marketing, not the writers.
5. It is a more personal story despite the family not being the main plot focus point.
6. I paid more attention and fully explored the dialogue, 98% of it DOES make sense.
7. So the anatagonists can't be right? They must always be wrong....lol.
8. When you get the facts wrong, you have no real argument.

[bEVEsthda]

Kinda weird finding myself on that side of the "polarizing", but I checked out the video many days ago. I couldn't stand more than a couple of minutes. Basically, if you try hard enough, you can analyze anything's plot to death, even reality. And that's what that guy is doing, trying hard enough. I'm not impressed.

[OdanUrr]

My first impression upon watching the video was: "If you need an hour or so to review a game, you're doing something wrong."

This is not because the game doesn't lend itself to a more thorough examination, but because if I were to analyze any game at length, I could probably find as many flaws as I wanted it to have. If you look hard enough, you'll find it, whatever 'it' is. Now, undoubtedly, he makes mistakes as well as some unnecessary remarks like the power of air pressure but, on the whole, he makes some valid points, albeit ones we've heard before.

1) The issue of Hawke's family. If you play your cards right, you can get just about everyone killed. If that's supposed to add drama, then someone went about it the wrong way. The first death came as a nasty surprise and those that followed were more a bad joke than anything else. If you don't get to connect to your family, then they're just random NPCs, and about as inconsequential as those that parachute from the skies.

2) Time skips. I won't go as far as to say they were unnecessary, but they were certainly mis-used, to the point I never actually thought years had passed but rather days. A year or more for Hawke to deliver on his promise to Flemeth? Three more to get yourself adjusted to being a noble? Another three for Orsino to rattle the cages? All of DA2 could have taken place in two, maybe a generous three, years.

3) The issue of Hawke's 'rise to power.' Well, that was definitely mis-marketed, no doubt about that. My particular beef with this issue is that, considering the lack of an overarching objective, Hawke should have taken more of an interest in the politics of Kirkwall. It is only human. Act III should have been about him gathering the support of the nobles to become viscount, at the very least the option should have been there. I certainly thought so the first time around given how Act III started. Allow for that and you now have several ways to reach Act III's climax. What if Meredith finds out about this conspiracy and confronts you about it? That would have been interesting to see unfold. Unfortunately it never comes to pass. Why? Because DA2 wants you to follow a very strict path and never wander off.

And we get to the point I'm trying to make. DA2 wants to tell its story a particular way and that's okay. In fact, in paper, it could have been a very interesting novel. Why? Because in paper you have no illusions as to the degree of control you have over one character or another, you have no control over the story. However, as a reader, you and you alone decide whether the story's plausible.

If smudboy made any good point, it was probably this: that events in a story are shaped by the personalities of the protagonists, and not the other way around. When I write a story I need to know if the psyche of a certain character will allow for him/her to act a particular way. If it won't, I can either re-write the character or figure out another way for him/her to act. I cannot force a character to act any given way to advance plot, especially not in detriment of that character.

DA2, however, does this time and again with multiple characters, Orsino and Petrice come to mind, with Hawke being the prime example for this. It stretches credibility, for me at least, that Hawke could be so passive during all those years in Kirkwall. It is only natural that Hawke should try to look out for his own, particularly if he's a mage or his sister's in the Circle. Forget natural, it's logical. You don't wait around for a bomb to go off, you do something about it. I don't care whether he succeeds or fails, just show me he's doing something. I would expect it if he were a character in a novel, why not then in a game where the player supposedly has more control over his actions?

I once argued you couldn't quite compare a game-story with a novel-story on the premise that games require interactivity whereas novels do not. I was right, but I was also wrong. Stories will always share common points in any medium and one of those points is credibility: Are you willing to believe that this could have happened? If the answer's yes, then your story's a good one for you have persuaded your reader/player/viewer that event X could have transpired in universe Y. You can then love or hate the story but if you don't see it coming together under the rules of universe Y, you probably won't even give it a shot.

Well, DA2 set those rules, told a story, and I didn't buy it. But, hey, better luck next time.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 10 septembre 2011 - 11:02 .