21 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

I just finished another run of ME1 (and failed at being a full renegade AGAIN, damn those good deeds!), and I now have a whole new appreciation for Ash and Tali.  As an achievement wh*re and a first-time adept looking to maintain squad balance, I decided to play through nearly the entire game using those two exclusively, and to be honest it was one of my most rewarding playthroughs yet.

Ash and Tali were never my favorite squadmates.  I usually just glossed through conversations with them and defaulted to the Bro Squad (Wrex and Garrus) for most missions.  But when I started paying attention to how they performed in combat and catching all those little snippets of dialogue I'd never heard before, I really started to like them.  I listened more closely to our between-mission chats and discovered a lot of depth I'd never noticed before.  I even began to refer to them as My Girls and now consider them on level with the Bro Squad.  And, to my surprise, they seemed to grow closer to each other as well--believe it or not, I lucked out on the elevator conversations so that it genuinely seemed like they were becoming friends.  Tali admired Ashley for her strength and straightforwardness, and Ash gained a new perspective on aliens from listening to her--she almost seemed to calm down a little and think more about other viewpoints.  A lot of this was probably just me thinking too hard and projecting on them, but I was impressed nonetheless.

I've also experienced similar little gems in ME2: on a whim, I took Grunt to recruit Thane and Jack on the Derelict Reaper.  Those two dropped some absolutely hilarious comments, and I'm seriously considering taking them nearly everywhere next time.  Additionally, multiple playthroughs led me to realize things about certain characters that I've never thought of before.  For example, know how determined Garrus was to take Sidonis down?  At first I thought he was crazy-obsessive, and then I reflected a little on it and realized I'd probably feel the same way in his shoes.  I reflected a little more, and it dawned on me that the set of values he was raised on--the value turians place on honor and the responsibility of a leader to his unit--made him feel that it was his duty to avenge the people he had failed to protect and personally execute the man he had allowed to betray him.  Sure, he was so angry and focused about it that it scared the sh*t out of me, but his actions were hardly out of spite (even though his own feelings were definitely a factor): he was acting to correct a personal failure and to do justice on behalf of those that had trusted him.  I've gained this level of understanding for a lot of squadmates I totally didn't like or didn't "get," such as Tali's apparent weakening of personality and Liara's sudden crazyrage.

I guess it's one of the joys of over-thinking: what starts as a flaw can become depth, and what starts as an annoyance becomes an endearing trait.  Props to Bioware's writers and actors for bringing such humanity to their characters.

Anyway, what about you guys?  How well has really trying to get to know your squadmates paid off for you?  Did your efforts result in liking and understanding a character more or less?

[Funkcase]

I've always tried mixing things up, taking different squadmates out, trying to hear what they all had to say, and choosing different options when speaking to them on different playthroughs to better understand them. I've found that there's alot of humanity (I dont know if thats the best word as not all of them are humans) in each character. There are likeable traits in each character, and they all have flaws too. I honestly have grown to like all of Shepard crew. I cant find myself to really dislike any of them, I even like the council and Udina in some ways.

I'm glad you've chosen to try and better to understand characters and not just to dismiss them becuase of there flaws, becuase afterall flaws make a character more interesting and realistic.

Modifié par Funkcase, 02 septembre 2011 - 10:02 .

[Captain_Obvious]

I was nerfed on my first ME1 playthrough. I didn't know about the whole "careful on Virmire or Ashley's gonna pop a cap in Wrex's ass" thing. She shot him, and I have despised her ever since. The only way she'll ever make it into my ME2 games is if I don't import a save, cuz there's no way I could ever save her over Alenko after that. Kudos to Bioware's writing for making me hate her, I guess.

My problem is that I like everyone (except Ash) but I usually stick to only a couple of squaddies. I really need to branch out more, but it's hard to do.

[TobiTobsen]

Somebody made a thread to tell us that he likes Ash?

Admiral.... you made me a happy man. *shakes Admirals hand* I will mark this day in my calendar.

[Funkcase]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

I was nerfed on my first ME1 playthrough. I didn't know about the whole "careful on Virmire or Ashley's gonna pop a cap in Wrex's ass" thing. She shot him, and I have despised her ever since. The only way she'll ever make it into my ME2 games is if I don't import a save, cuz there's no way I could ever save her over Alenko after that. Kudos to Bioware's writing for making me hate her, I guess.

My problem is that I like everyone (except Ash) but I usually stick to only a couple of squaddies. I really need to branch out more, but it's hard to do.

When Shepard told Ash ''But get ready just incase'' I knew it meant she was going to shoot Wrex if he doesn't calm down, as basically that was Shepard ordering Ash to get ready to kill him. It's funny that some people hate her for that, yet she was the only one willing to save her commanders life, ironic eh?. But I suppose thats the beauty of having different opinions, these characters can be discussed more.

Modifié par Funkcase, 02 septembre 2011 - 10:16 .

[Mr. Brainheart]

I also like to mix it up, that's why the first few playthroughs also feel different in each of them I got a little closer to and more understanding of the characters.

@Captain_Obvious; She backs you up in a situation where Wrex was threatening Shep, he pulled a gun on you, then YOU nodded to Ash. The situation might not have been crystal clear, but from an ingame perspective Shep signaled Ash to do it. You don't have to despise her because of that, maybe you could give her a another chance, just like AdmiralCheez did, maybe you'll appreciate her more.

[Captain_Obvious]

Mr. Brainheart wrote...

 The situation might not have been crystal clear, but from an ingame perspective Shep signaled Ash to do it. You don't have to despise her because of that, maybe you could give her a another chance, just like AdmiralCheez did, maybe you'll appreciate her more.

I've tried, really.  I use her all game and then get to that point on Virmire and I just can't get past it.  I'm a bad, bad Shepard. 

[mineralica]

Sure.

I usually stick with two same squadmates for entire game, but with 23 playthroughs of ME2 it doesn't really matter. Everyone has own run already.

The story "drag squadmates along to know them better" started literally with the beginning of game. At first, I ridiculed Kaidan for his looks, and the fact that at first levels he's extremely squishy and has eternal cooldown didn't help a bit - so majority of my first run was Infiltrator!male!Shep with Ashley and Tali. But when I talked to him, I couldn't help but notice how Kaidan's opinion is similar to Shepard's - read: mine. So the second run was _planned_ for him and Wrex - and all hell broke loose. Team biotics was just crazy effective, plus all the little slips and comments like "extranet fetish site". Result: the most favorite character ever, 3 characters with same romance, 9 femShep stared thoughtfully at photo frame before SM.

The second example was Miranda - first opinion was extremely negative. Woman who pushes assets in my face from all possible camera angle, clearly won't die from shyness, in addition to that, one of seniours of group I was _forced_ to work for. I'd never take her on missions if I had a choice - but I hadn't. It was the first ME2 run, cold start in shooters, more - I had a hard time practising as Vanguard, so that squad bonus was vital. Then little facts started to click - that Miranda won't only throw everyone for mission's sake, but will throw herself first; her care about Oriana, her understanding of concept of "relax" (Dark Star comment), and, the exclamation mark in our story, her words at last boss for TIM when destroying CB. Since then, the question "who's your Shepard's XO" has definite answer.

It doesn't end with favourites, though - I made paragon romance with Jack (relationships with her were complicated since, no matter the motives, I don't like people starting fights on my ship) just for pure experiment and found it to be best in ME2. I dragged said Jack and Jacob around and found that these two shotgunners both having Pull and Squad Warp ammo are ripping through enemies just fine. I recently romanced Jacob (on mute, thanks to Shepard) and should note that I didn't expect such degree of... compassion and understanding.

Oh, and should I mention I like James Vega's looks now when my first reaction was "OMG giggle"?

[Mr. Brainheart]

@Captain_obvious; Well, atleast you tried =p (that's more than most) You can't like everyone (well technically you can, but not everyone can like everyone) I suppose it is also a good thing, Like funkcase said, it makes you think, discuss. It would be dull if everyone liked all the squadmates.

[Captain_Obvious]

Mr. Brainheart wrote...

@Captain_obvious; Well, atleast you tried =p (that's more than most) You can't like everyone (well technically you can, but not everyone can like everyone) I suppose it is also a good thing, Like funkcase said, it makes you think, discuss. It would be dull if everyone liked all the squadmates.

I'll give it one more try.  Promise.  I just need to mute the TV and leave the room the instant after I choose. 

[AdmiralCheez]

@mineralica: Yep. That's exactly what I'm talking about. If I just went with who I liked right away, I'd only care about Garrus, Mordin, and Legion. Now, the only characters I don't really care too much for are Zaeed and Morinth, and that's because I haven't bummed around with Zaeed much (even though he's enormously entertaining when I do) and Morinth has yet to survive her mother's loyalty mission (but that will change--HotWings Shepard was just imported last night and has a habit of showing sympathy for the scum of the universe).

@TobiTobsen: It wasn't easy--took me four playthroughs to warm up to her. Playthru 1 I was immediately turned off because I was already a soldier and she didn't like Wrex and Garrus. Playthru 2 I romanced her but was turned off by the poetry and cheated with Miranda. Playthru 3 I finally listened to all her convos and found her to be eerily similar to my best friend from high school. And finally, in my most recent playthru, I dragged her everywhere and found her to be awesome. She snipes better than Garrus and dies less often, and her in-field commentary is both charming and hilarious.

[Funkcase]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

Mr. Brainheart wrote...

@Captain_obvious; Well, atleast you tried =p (that's more than most) You can't like everyone (well technically you can, but not everyone can like everyone) I suppose it is also a good thing, Like funkcase said, it makes you think, discuss. It would be dull if everyone liked all the squadmates.

I'll give it one more try.  Promise.  I just need to mute the TV and leave the room the instant after I choose. 

On the plus side, if you take her to the Citadel after Virmire and speak to the Terra firma guy you get to see her call him out on Terra firma members as ''just a bunch of racists'' And the after Virmire talk is great for her character development, the whole becoming a martyre discussion her and Shep have. I find it's good to have a save for both Ash and Kaidan, I cant wait to see how they both develop in ME3! Hopefully not how they did in ME2..

[Mr. Brainheart]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

Mr. Brainheart wrote...

@Captain_obvious; Well, atleast you tried =p (that's more than most) You can't like everyone (well technically you can, but not everyone can like everyone) I suppose it is also a good thing, Like funkcase said, it makes you think, discuss. It would be dull if everyone liked all the squadmates.

I'll give it one more try.  Promise.  I just need to mute the TV and leave the room the instant after I choose. 

Aww Better idea: walk out of the room first and let someone else press the option you chose! Perhaps you won't even love her after that (it's possible, or so I've been told), but perhaps you'll love her in ME3! I hope so!

@AdmiralCheez: Ash's battle conversation is still some of the best in my opinion And you put some real dedication into trying to like a squadmate, refreshing to see.

[jeweledleah]

I changed my opinion on Ashley within first playthrough. I didn't quite like her at first, I thought she was way too snarky, but talking to her after every mission changed my mind, so Virmire was... rough. as a result I have several saves with Ash alive, despite liking Kaidan more.

one thing though.... playing the game through multiple times and paying attention is making me seriously despise bioware's implementations of gameplay/story segregation. case in point. I'm playing a chaotic evil character right now and I'm finding out a lot of new and interesting things... for instance, if you take all renegade conversation options with Tali on Freedom's progress, she comes off as sounding incredibly mature there. she's not all happy about Shepard and his attitude, but she's grudgingly willing to work with him and Cerberus, because she realizes that they won't be able to get to Veetor without them. and yet. despite her calling Shepard out on his bull multiple times, just because you do a loyalty mission (during which you can get her exiled and encourage quarians go to war with the Geth).... she's in luuurve. gamplay/story segregation. never more apparent then when you play through multiple times and pay attention to the characters... and realize how bad bioware is at making it smooth and natural.

[mineralica]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@mineralica: Yep. That's exactly what I'm talking about. If I just went with who I liked right away, I'd only care about Garrus, Mordin, and Legion. Now, the only characters I don't really care too much for are Zaeed and Morinth, and that's because I haven't bummed around with Zaeed much (even though he's enormously entertaining when I do) and Morinth has yet to survive her mother's loyalty mission (but that will change--HotWings Shepard was just imported last night and has a habit of showing sympathy for the scum of the universe).
<...>

Oh Zaeed... absolute record at using "guddamn" in comments=]

About Morinth... it's rather hard to change minds about her from dialogues because she has a little of them. Especially comments on hub words. Truth: the only case when you having a hard time becoming attached to BioWare character is when BioWare almost forsaking said character

[ADLegend21]

I used to treat Jacob terribly because I saw "the priiiiize" video before actually talking to him so i thoguht he was a terribe character. That all changed when I was on his turn on my Romance them all stage, I found out he was in fact, one of the bests characters in the game. He didn't let his loyalty mission muck up his attitude because he's over it before it even starts. He just needs to make sure something's up with it and after he discovers the truth it's done. Plus, I literally had to double take when he asked shepard what was bothering her. No love interest had done that without lumping their problems on Shepard so it caught me way off guard. It was even more of a shock to find that, when I accidentally rejected him after he said the prize, he thens teps it up to say "I love you" to Shepard which sealed hi fate as the best LI in the game since that's your one stop shop for "I love you" in Mass Effect.

Paying attention has also droppedsome squaddies in my books as well. I used to think the world of Garrus and Tali. Since I played ME2 first with no ME1 import i assumed that the renegade decisions led garrus to Omega, so when I got my hands on ME1 I paragon'd the hell out of him and told him to go with the Spectre's Spectre's do as they please so he wouldn't ahve to worry about Red tape, but he stil wound up getting betrayed on Omega and not a spectre. Iw as fine with that because he's a grown turian and he can do as he pleases, but when he mentioned his team on Omega during his romance scene that was the last straw. He was so wrapped up in it and let that consume him that I wanted to give him a sabbatical from combat to pull himself together sinceIcouldn't let that distract him from the reapers. Tali was even worse. Even with having talkedto Legion in ME2 After hearing her explain the Mourning war as "We attacked the geth before they got sentient and saw what we were doing to them as wrong" and then that she wouldn't back down and admit the quarians were at fault, I was done with her. In Me2, with this knowledge I brought Legion to the flotilla since I took her opinion as ALL the quarians opinions and I was right, Excpet for Admiral Koris. I wish there was an option to Tell Tali she had to think like him because he has the right idea that he sees passed the quarians being driven from rannoch in that, they provoked the geth into war. I love using the paragon charm in Tali and Legion's scene because of shepard saying they'd do what Legion was trying to do if they'd tested weapons on humans because that's how I feel. I also fell out of love with Zaeed since he'd sacrafice innocent lives, after endangering them himself, just to kill one man. that is unacceptable and when I left him on Zorya to die in that fire, I felt no remorse because he has no one to blame but himself. Now I just don't pick him up on Omega anymore because I don't feel like having to hear him yell about Vido anymore.

despite what I said about "Team dextro" I do like them, but they're not as far along as the other 3 ME1 squaddies since Ashley and Kaidan are made Spectre's, Wrex is the king of all Krogans, andLiara gets to become the Shadow Broker.I'd love Tali to be at least the Captain of a ship or an admiral that's not on the admiralty so that she can be useful in something other than combat (but they nerfed her anyway) and Garrus to at least have some sort of connection to the Turian military or C-Sec. that would make me happy if they weren't just Shepard lackies because their fanbases demand that they be squadmates. I want them to matter in the grand scheme of this like everyone else from the first game.


I also fell for Kasumi and want her to be romanceable, but that's another story XD

[HogarthHughes 3]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I just finished another run of ME1 (and failed at being a full renegade AGAIN, damn those good deeds!)
-snip-

Anyway, what about you guys?  How well has really trying to get to know your squadmates paid off for you?  Did your efforts result in liking and understanding a character more or less?

It was hard for me to be mean to EDI (at least later on in the game) on my latest terminator Shepard play-through.  (Not my "canon" dude/girl or anything, I just want to have one full renegade Shepard to see how it turns out)

More on-topic, Wrex is likely the character I learned to like the most after initial disinterest.  On my first couple play-throughs I dismissed him as being some generic tough guy/space-bowser (Krogan have little stub tails that remind me of him ).  Anyways yadda yadda yadda, upon spending some time with him he became one of my favorite characters.  His rough nature made for some amusing moments (like threatening to eat Anoleis' mercs), while he was one of the wiser and more experienced members of the squad.  Plus it was a pleasant surprise to have one of the team agree with my Shepard on killing the Rachni Queen.

Miranda is another character that I changed my opinion of after spending some time with her, but in the opposite direction.  Supposed ice queen who is happy to suggest mind controlling Shepard in order to ensure Cerberus benefits from their investment, then she turns around and opens up about daddy/self-esteem issues the second conversation with her (after already miraculously being quite friendly in the first aboard the Normandy).  The thing that really made me lose interest in Miranda as a character though is her sudden change of heart in the Collector Base.  I can understand many of the other characters lack of faith in TIM, or their unwillingness to cross much in the way of ethical boundaries, but Miranda?  

The "Cerberus cheerleader" who apparently must have no idea what Cerberus' modus operandi is.  Murdering Alliance Admirals?  All good.  What about political or religious leaders who don't fall in line with the goals of Cerberus?  No problem there.  Experiments to manipulate husks (remember they're mutilated and defiled corpses) into becoming shock troops for Cerberus rather than the Reapers?  Hell yeah!  What about murdering thousands of children to produce a few biotics because TIM feels that they're necessary for humanity's future?  Why not eh?  Oh but preserving technology that was used to murder innocent people in a horrific way in order to learn more about the mecha-Cthulhu-space-cuddlefish (or at least the technology of their minions) that are very likely going to wipe out all life in the known galaxy?  Well that just feels like a betrayal!  People died in there y'know!   

True Miranda likely doesn't know everything I listed, but being so high up in Cerberus as to be in the same room as TIM (as something other than a consort ) could she really be so ignorant?  Or was she just fooling herself all along, she never really believed in Cerberus and had only stuck with them for protection from her father (or perhaps a sense of belonging/purpose)?  Perhaps I'm simply overthinking it and should just chalk it up to an out-of-character moment and ignore it, but I don't like doing that.  If the character did it, then they did it.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 03 septembre 2011 - 01:59 .

[PauseforEffect]

The first time I played ME1, speaking with each of the crew left me with a certain fondness for them. Ashley showed a side I could relate to in sibling relationships and my heart went out to her for the closeness she had in her family. Virmire haunts mainly due to one comment I overheard her say in Flux when she had hopes to take her sisters there. Yes, she could be an unreasonably snarky b&tch towards aliens (really, what did Liara do to her when you play a Femshep?), but it was never something that I felt justified for leaving her to die. The thought that Shepard would have to kill a member of a family that's been together through disgrace and pride always left me with a hollow feeling.
And despite my knee-jerk need to drop-kick Kaiden for that gut-punch on Horizon, I still remember the way he maintained integrity and a fair-minded view towards other species despite personal negative experience with one (assuming you didn't charm him into a xenophobe). So no, leaving either Kaiden or Ashley to die does not give me warm feelings.
Ironically, Tali left me zoning out on her in ME2 when she went into further depth of Quarian government. ME1 was interesting talking to her, but lengthy. And it revolved on 3 subjects: Geth, Flotilla and opinions on Geth.
At least she'll loan me a grenade for Cerberus agents that go postal on Shepard. Tali's ok in my book for that.
I wish I could say my opinon of Jacob has changed. It has not. Jacob is a decent, honorable fellow who would have been an interesting person to talk to if not for that awful flirting Bioware put Shepard through. And he is still the one character that my Vanguard does not need in battle. At all. Been trying to have him along with my Infiltrator through most of her runs, but it's hard to remove past disappointments with his combat abilities.
I still cannot take Liara's shift in attitude seriously. It's like seeing Barney Fife act like Dirty Harry or Marilynn Munroe threatening you in her breathy Happy Birthday Mr President voice.
So far, not much has changed. Am trying, but it's hard to change an opinion that's persisted for so long.

[lovgreno]

Bringing a random set of squadmates is also good just for enjoying their personal battleshouts and as a challenge.

[jlb524]

It's funny how people default to 'Tali is weak' and 'Liara is crazy' or 'ASH IS A CLOSE-MINDED RACIST!' XD

Not ripping on you, OP, but I find it entertaining when faced with evidence against those judgements.

Replaying the game does help.