452 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

Gunderic wrote...

Well your target audience ( CoD fans )

Strawman, this assertion has clearly been disproven. 

[AngryFrozenWater]

mrcrusty wrote...

Who cares about trust?

Either they make it or they don't and we buy it or we don't based on our opinions and impressions of the game and BioWare as a whole.

Why does "trust" or "faith" have to come into it? (Unless of course, you're the kind of person who buys all the games from a developer regardless of whether you'd actually like them or not - I always find that to be so illogical, but hey, different strokes.)

Even if the topic were titled "Does anyone trust BioWare to create a DA 3 that they would like?" which is more to the point, the real issue would be "Do you agree with BioWare's direction for the Dragon Age franchise?" and not anything to do with "trust".

While that has been a topic that's been done a thousand times over, it's a very valid one in order to give feedback and opinions to developers provided that it's civil. It's better than "trust" in any case.

Ah. Logic.

If a company just does not deliver a product then I am fine with that and move to another which does. You can like a series and come to the conclusion that what the company says it will deliver is not what you can actually buy. You can call that false information or bad marketing and move to another company. But fandom does odd things to you. BW is not just a company. It is a company were nice indiviuals work. They have this site called BSN in which you meet other people who enjoy their games. You get to know them. The total sum is more than games from a random company and their nameless employees with a site full of strangers. So, if a product does not satisfy you and you feel that maybe what you post can move a head then you try. If that company tells you that they will deliver X, but in fact deliver something else then it becomes something you lost trust in. As if it were a being. And hence I made a post about this several pages ago.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 septembre 2011 - 02:07 .

[Obadiah]

Wasn't DA2 released just this year? Do they really need to announce another sequel already?

[Atakuma]

Obadiah wrote...

Wasn't DA2 released just this year? Do they really need to announce another sequel already?

No, that's why they haven't announced anything yet and probably wont until after ME3 is released.

[Maria Caliban]

I trust BioWare will make Dragon Age III, just as I trust them to continue with the ME franchise after ME 3.

I also trust that fans on the forums will continue to complain about BioWare while buying their games.

[Bryy_Miller]

FieryDove wrote...
Why do I need to trust Bioware to make a DA3? They will or they won't. What has trust got to do with it?

This.

BioWare is a video game company. They make video games. It's not like this is some important decision that will have any kind of negative or positive effect on the real world. 

Someone said to me the other day that he doesn't hear anything coming from me that says how my company is going to be unique or different in the context of something like LightTrack or iPhone. My response? It will be, but not in the context of things that actually change how we live. 

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 06 septembre 2011 - 03:05 .

[Reno_Tarshil]

The only thing I trust is for some people to not like the game no matter what.

[DrFumb1ezX]

Filament wrote...

I'd think a drunk on a merry-go-round would go in the same direction as everyone else on the merry-go-round, unless he fell off.

That... is an excellent point. Plus, I think being drunk on a merry-go-round would be a lot more fun than being sober.
But then again, there'd be less vomit, too.
Decisions, Decisions.

[Kilshrek]

xkg wrote...

That list of games proves nothing. It is not about the games they have made in the past.
It is all about the direction they are taking in their current (and probably future) games.

If that "direction" is something I don't like I am not hoing to enjoy their new games just because i did enjoy them in the past.

And that cuts straight to the heart of the matter, what with ME 2 and DA 2 big departures from the previous game. With ME 3 retaining a number of things I disliked about ME 2, it doesn't exactly inspire me with a great deal of confidence that DA 3 will be a game I'm terribly interested in playing. And I don't mind my action games one bit, I'm going bananas waiting for Space Marine to come out. I just don't like to find too much "action" in my RPGs, thank you very much.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ah. Logic.

If a company just does not deliver a product then I am fine with that and move to another which does. You can like a series and come to the conclusion that what the company says it will deliver is not what you can actually buy. You can call that false information or bad marketing and move to another company. But fandom does odd things to you. BW is not just a company. It is a company were nice indiviuals work. They have this site called BSN in which you meet other people who enjoy their games. You get to know them. The total sum is more than games from a random company and their nameless employees with a site full of strangers. So, if a product does not satisfy you and you feel that maybe what you post can move a head then you try. If that company tells you that they will deliver X, but in fact deliver something else then it becomes something you lost trust in. As if it were a being. And hence I made a post about this several pages ago.

If that fandom means that you take disappointing games as a personal slight or means that you reduce yourself to apologism, then that's something I really don't understand. I guess I just don't feel that strongly about the company itself.

When I see people calling for the dev team to be fired and people raging over how they were betrayed by BioWare/EA especially now months after the fact, or conversely, claim that the lack of meaningful choice was a brilliant piece of esoteric commentary rather than an actual flaw and even made the story better, this is how I feel:

[meme image removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:22 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

mrcrusty wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ah. Logic.

If a company just does not deliver a product then I am fine with that and move to another which does. You can like a series and come to the conclusion that what the company says it will deliver is not what you can actually buy. You can call that false information or bad marketing and move to another company. But fandom does odd things to you. BW is not just a company. It is a company were nice indiviuals work. They have this site called BSN in which you meet other people who enjoy their games. You get to know them. The total sum is more than games from a random company and their nameless employees with a site full of strangers. So, if a product does not satisfy you and you feel that maybe what you post can move a head then you try. If that company tells you that they will deliver X, but in fact deliver something else then it becomes something you lost trust in. As if it were a being. And hence I made a post about this several pages ago.

If that fandom means that you take disappointing games as a personal slight or means that you reduce yourself to apologism, then that's something I really don't understand. I guess I just don't feel that strongly about the company itself.

When I see people calling for the dev team to be fired and people raging over how they were betrayed by BioWare/EA especially now months after the fact, or conversely, claim that the lack of meaningful choice was a brilliant piece of esoteric commentary rather than an actual flaw and even made the story better, this is how I feel:

[snip]

I can only speak for myself. And I feel that I didn't rage or lower myself to personal slights when I addressed the issue. So, no. Your response here does not apply to me. And yes, I have seen the over the top responses as well, but we see that everywhere here and not only in the DA forums. Thanks for your concern, though.

[The Xand]

I actually rather enjoyed Dragon Age 2 but I'd like to see the Origins feature implemented again in a later game and the same amount of new environments, characters, creatures and lore introduced in Dragon Age 3 than the rather narrow scope of DA2. I got bored of reading the same codex entries in Dragon Age 2 that were just copy pasted from the first game not to mention that they didn't even bother reskinning the Fade demons and abominations and pretty much all enemies in DA2. Well, they did re-imagine the few darkspawn that you fought but they looked silly compared to the scary looking darkspawn in the first game.

Modifié par The Xand, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:14 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Actually, no, we don't. If BioWare, for whatever reason, decided to shut down the Dragon Age franchise--or, heavens forbid, shut down as a company--there's nothing you could do to stop it and BioWare would be well within its rights to do so. There is no contract between you and the company that obligates BioWare to produce anything.

Yeah, it would totally suck, but BioWare owes you nothing in that context.

Well... Then let's make sure you don't shut down as a company, shall we? Because it's a loose-loose situation for all of us and I'm very sure you won't want that to happen. And the only way for you guys to prosper is to produce a product that your target audience want. Otherwise, all your work is meaningless in term of cost and profitability.

Stanley Woo wrote...
No, it's just the nature of the developer/customer relationship. We make games, then you decide, based on research, reviews, announced features, even the flip of coin, whether or not to pick it up. Deciding not to buy the game is hardle "sitting back and taking it." In fact, it's quite the opposite.  By not purchasing the game, you are making a definite decision to not support that product. It's not just your right as a consumer/fan to vote with your wallet. I would say it's your duty as a responsible consumer to vote with your wallet.

Be advice though. Once your players do exercise their right with their wallet, it'll be too late for you to do anything. You may earn profit or you may loss your income. That's the only outcome. There is no turning back. It's good if you do well. It's hurts if you don't do well. That's is the nature of business. In the end, it's still goes back to basic trading principle that is, "Knowing your product and your target audience." Like Sun Tzu said in The Art of War, "Know your enemies, Know yourself, In hundreds battles, you'll never loose."

Stanley Woo wrote...
There's no way you can magically change a product into something you will like for sure, since you won't know whether you will like a game until you play it or watch enough gameplay videos or play the demo or whatever. By that time, it is too late to change anything. So no, you're not hurting anything by speaking your mind and offering suggestions, ideas and feedback. On the other hand, you're also not hurting anything by remaining silent and seeing how it goes. While we prefer you guys talking about the game, like it or no, we cannot force you to do so.

"Telling us what you won't buy" is all well and good, but you speak only for yourself, not for others and certainly not for the entirety of our target audience. Bear that in mind.

Fair enough. One consumer can never represent your entire target audience. However, sometimes this one consumer may accidently point out one or two sales points that your researches may have miss out. Perhaps this one consumer comments may mirror what other 11.1 million WOW players or millions other RPG players in the world. Who knows. We only knows that your real target audience, the rpg players, amounted more than 18 millions CoD players. It's just that, they're all scattered over browser MMORPG or Pay and Play MMORPG or Free to Play MMORPG or Single Player RPG etc...

The question is can you identify them? Do you know what they want?

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:36 .

[Lunar Savage]

If you mean trust them to make a good DA III that the fans actually want this time? Hellz no. lulz at the idea of entertaining such a notion.

After all their recent activities, releases, and revelations of future plans, I'm pretty sure Bioware doesn't know what most of us want. Nor do they seem to really give a damn. They're too busy trying to get people who have no interest in RPGs to play RPGs by removing the role play part and substituting it with things like awesome buttons, herpa derpa "iconic looks" for characters, and extremely limited dialog wheels with only three tones of speaking (for every convo). a.k.a games that three years old and up could play, comprehend, and enjoy. It's just a damn shame those same kids are too busy playing CoD and cussing each other out to take note of the game made specifically for them.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Clertar wrote...

When BG2 came out, all of the NPC companions (or half of them) were considered huge fails among the fan community: Imoen had been spoiled, Jaheira had become an annoying beetch, Aerie was a stupid whiner... Pretty much all of them were bad, other than Minsc, Edwin, and maybe Viconia xD The plot railroaded you tremendously, it trapped you in Athkatla, sent you to the Asylum, etc.

I can't believe all the comments trashing DA2 and talking about NWN as an amazing game: don't you remember at the time how it was considered a betrayal to "true" RP videogames? Don't you remember how much the NPCs svcked? But still, we all had a lot of fun with it and you remember it dearly. So it will be with DA2 in a decade, methinks. DA2, if I hadn't played it, I would be tempted to think it really was a failure, what with all the whining about it. Nothing new under the sun, I guess. We should get a little bit more perspective

That's strange. I didn't consider the NPCs failures. Most of the disappointment I remember was in which NPCs made it back and which didn't since several underdog favorites were not allowed to return (like Xan). Also I never felt trapped in Athkatla. There was less wandering about, which was a little disappointing, but BG 2 stll had alot of the same exploration the first game had.

BG 2 kept the class system while adding more classes, more spells, more combat skills and more items, including item types. In that respect it was a very successful sequel, it expanded upon the features of the first but just offered more of them. This is a major way DA 2 failed for me since it only seemed to limit playability in it's features, only letting mages use staves, rogues use "daggers" and not allow warriors dual wielding or use of ranged weapons. Plus spells were limited, so were skills. It was less all around, less story, less origins, less dialogue options, less character creation options. Did it make for a better quality experience? Not for me...so I'm not sure how any slight disappointments from BG 1 to BG 2 can be compared to DA:O to DA 2.

NWN's main plot was terribly written and the NPCs were stilted. Time hasn't changed that impression Yet, it was an excellent game because the engine and toolset were awesome, and that hasn't changed either. Player mods, player servers and expansions made that game a classic along with the expertly built Aurora Engine.

And no, in ten years I won't look back on DA 2 as being a great game, or even a good game. I don't hate it, but it just isn't a very good sequel in my opinion.

[LordPaul256]

addiction21 wrote...

They criticized parts of Origins they were disapointed in or did not think they executed properly.
Nothing about 4chan I dont go there
No there WERE fans that wanted DAO:2. I see no problem in saying that there were people that wanted that and did not get it so those fans were unhappy. This is like the whole "the fans dont like change" That was never said. What was said was "that there were changes and people did not like changes" That is a whole different beast.
1 fan who got his access back very quickly. A fan who used that incident to rise to internet stardom for a week at best.
A employee. 1. Singular. Sjpw tp me how that was BioWares fault that a worker did that. Hell that was not even a easily recogizable employee.
 

I can think of two off the top of my head:  Vware & Armatyrs.

Last time I checked 2 was more than one.  There were reports of others, though the onus is not on me to provide every single one, just to disprove your assumption.  Not that I want to get into a back 'n' forth squabble with you, but it pays to check your facts before you get indignant on the internet.  

[Gunderic]

Morroian wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Well your target audience ( CoD fans )

Strawman, this assertion has clearly been disproven. 

No, it hasn't. It has been denied after the PR problems, but not right after the comment was made:

(Fernando Melo)

“We have data that shows there are a lot of people that enjoy playing RPGs although they won’t necessarily call them RPGs. They’ll play Fallout, Assassin’s Creed and even Call Of Duty, which have these progression elements – you’re putting points into things – but they don’t necessarily associate that as an RPG. So we think that if we expand that out we’ll attract a much bigger audience.”

And then you get comments like these from developers when that interview first appeared on the forums:

(Stanley Woo)

there was a post in this thread when it was posted to the MAss Effect board that I liked. one community member talked about how many games that are not RPGs now use character progression/advancement mechanics, and how BioWare wants to attract the players of such games because they might enjoy it.

Gamers are a little too quick to rely on labels rather than gameplay features when talking about game experiences they enjoy. I, for one, love character advancement mechanics, whether they're in RPGs or shooters, even adventure games. if a racing game, part of a genre I don't normally play, were to advertise that I could "level up" my driver or my car, or that the game had skill/ability trees I could explore while I played, I would be tempted to give it a shot and, just possibly, become a fan of racing games in general, or games in that particular milieu or franchise.

---

(JohnEpler)

And I think that you're misinterpreting the original quote - look at it more like 'we want to draw attention to the aspects of our games that they can relate to and ease them into the ones that they aren't used to', rather than 'we want our games to be pretty much like Call of Duty except, you know, with magic and swords.'

It's the idea that the people who enjoy Call of Duty but have never picked up an RPG might actually enjoy an RPG, they've just never given it a shot. And that's what we want - we want them to look at a game like Dragon Age and say 'you know, that might be something I'd enjoy'.

Am I making sense? I'm heavily caffeinated and slowly going insane by creating reams of documentation, so I may not be entirely clear in my point.

Inclusion rather than exclusion.

Maybe I'm just lacking in comprehension abilities, but I don't see Mike Laidlaw coming to the forums several months after the reception has settled in and denying everything related to CoD as having 'clearly disproven' anything. 

Modifié par Gunderic, 06 septembre 2011 - 10:27 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Obadiah wrote...

Wasn't DA2 released just this year? Do they really need to announce another sequel already?

DA2 was announced around the same time after the last game's release, so it wouldn't be all that surprising. They'll probably keep quiet until a month or two after ME3, though.

[jbrand2002uk]

Mike_Neel wrote...

I'll say that yes I trust Bioware, but not so much Bioware EA.

That said some of the commentary I've been seeing on the forums is promising, as well as the improvements they took with Legacy seem to be well received. Bioware has a bad habit of taking something from the first game that was complex and hard to understand or not well received and just completely cutting it instead of taking the time to fix it. Glad to see they might actually try to take the time to fix some of the problems for DA3 instead of just saying
"Well this didn't work last time, cut it out."
"But...but...we could try fixing it and instead implem-"
"NO! Cut. Every. Thing! That's another day in the bag. Time to enjoy the weekend."
"But it's Wednesday."
"Can't hear you. Did you say something. Tell me Monday. Time to get some tequila shooters and wings at TGIFs"

*The following was my interpretation of a day at the Bioware offices. I'm sure it's 100% accurate.*

sounds about Accurate the only thing you missed out Was the EA bigwig saying "do it or your fired":D

[jbrand2002uk]

Morroian wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Well your target audience ( CoD fans )

Strawman, this assertion has clearly been disproven. 

@Morroian did you also notice his assumption that the Origins fans were the "right" market surely the rpg market is bigger than just Origins fans maybe i'm wrong i just dont know these days 

Modifié par jbrand2002uk, 06 septembre 2011 - 11:22 .

[Sister Helen]

It's a silly question.

Rather like asking whether you trust Subaru to make the next model of Forester. It's their franchise, they can do what they want to it.

Why would a consumer's trust matter?

[Veex]

Mr.House wrote...
I'm talking about being forced to use the client to play the game like TOR and BF3 are doing.

You're not even required to have Origin installed to play TOR. Its only function will serve as the download manager assuming you purchased a digital copy.

As for whether I trust BioWare to create DA3, sure. It is their series after all. I only choose whether to purchase and play the game.

[xkg]

Sister Helen wrote...

Why would a consumer's trust matter?

LMAO   This must be the most foolish question i heave heard in a long time ...

[MrProliferation]

Who would you trust? Obsidian? They did such a BANG UP job with KOTOR 2, DS3, and FO:NV (which was a good game at its core, just so buggy it was almost unplayable for the first few months after release).

Where is there a positive track record for any other dev taking up later chapters of a franchise someone else created? The examples are few and far between and are mostly Interplay games where Interplay couldn't make the sequels due to financial insolvency. The best example I can think of is MDK2, made by none other than Bioware.