452 réponses à ce sujet

[Kilshrek]

MrProliferation wrote...

Who would you trust? Obsidian? They did such a BANG UP job with KOTOR 2, DS3, and FO:NV (which was a good game at its core, just so buggy it was almost unplayable for the first few months after release).

Where is there a positive track record for any other dev taking up later chapters of a franchise someone else created? The examples are few and far between and are mostly Interplay games where Interplay couldn't make the sequels due to financial insolvency. The best example I can think of is MDK2, made by none other than Bioware.

Oooh, MDK 2, now that's a game that takes me back. The first MDK was pretty damn good too.

Though I don't think the matter here is trusting another developer to take over the project, it's whether or not Bioware is interested in developing a Dragon Age that (an apparently vocal minority) some fans want to play.

For me the issue is the art direction and combat, which are two major aspects of the game. You can't escape a new art direction no matter which way you look, and DA 2 had so much filler combat that a pot of tea and a sandwich would have triggered more brain activity from me. Except for when giant spiders drop on you. From nowhere. SPIDERS.

[The Baconer]

Yes. Doesn't mean I'll buy it, though.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Whatever you say aboud Obsidian, their strengths are still there - writing and choices+consequences. KOTOR 2 had those done superb, NV was really decent too, Mask of Betrayer really had that Planescapish feel to it. Heck, even DS3 actually had some really neat characters, dialogues and C&C, though was a halfassed game everywhere else. So if they were to write DA3, it surely would't be worse than DA2, rather much better. The greatest enemy of them all for Obsidian are bugs. They also tend to outdo themselves and go for some massive stuff in game, just to lay down at the end making product look half-finished.
Say, if Bioware sticked to game engine, combat, design, and Obsidian did C&C, and they both tried their best in story, characters and dialogues..
..they would eat each other out of jelousy like some kind of rival wolf packs.. but maybe we got some neat game to play after that..

[Kilshrek]

An interesting read over at RPS on the direction of EVE. Only tangentially related to the current discussion on Bioware and their future games though, but if you're interested head over to rockpapershotgun.

[Bryy_Miller]

Gunderic wrote...
(JohnEpler)

[i]And I think that you're misinterpreting the original quote - look at it more like 'we want to draw attention to the aspects of our games that they can relate to and ease them into the ones that they aren't used to', rather than 'we want our games to be pretty much like Call of Duty except, you know, with magic and swords.'

It's the idea that the people who enjoy Call of Duty but have never picked up an RPG might actually enjoy an RPG, they've just never given it a shot. And that's what we want - we want them to look at a game like Dragon Age and say 'you know, that might be something I'd enjoy'.

You just disproved your own statement by quoting this.

Wanting to expand your audience does not equal going after that group alone.

[schalafi]

It's almost frightening to see the forums being taken over by self appointed critics of DA2. Ones who wouldn't have a clue as to how to develop a tic tac toe game, and yet are dissing and cursing Bioware for ruining a franchise, creating a terrible game, betraying the trust of their fans, selling out to EA, etc,etc,etc. Now they're wanting to boycott every Bioware game from now to eternity because they didn't think DA2 was "done right".

I used to think the old Bioware forums sometime got a little out of hand, but here it's like some of the newer generation, and some of the older too, have gotten off on tearing Bioware and DA2 to shreds. Are trolls being encouraged to post now, and when are the moderators going to start drawing more stringent lines?

[Gunderic]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Gunderic wrote...
(JohnEpler)

[i]And I think that you're misinterpreting the original quote - look at it more like 'we want to draw attention to the aspects of our games that they can relate to and ease them into the ones that they aren't used to', rather than 'we want our games to be pretty much like Call of Duty except, you know, with magic and swords.'

It's the idea that the people who enjoy Call of Duty but have never picked up an RPG might actually enjoy an RPG, they've just never given it a shot. And that's what we want - we want them to look at a game like Dragon Age and say 'you know, that might be something I'd enjoy'.

You just disproved your own statement by quoting this.

Wanting to expand your audience does not equal going after that group alone.

No, no I haven't. They admitted to wanting to appeal to the CoD crowd. And they sure as heck didn't go for the Dragon Age: Origins crowd as their target audience with DA2. So maybe they want to appeal to action-adventure fans too, but not Origins fans. What I quoted only supports my conclusions.

Modifié par Gunderic, 06 septembre 2011 - 04:49 .

[xkg]

schalafi wrote...

It's almost frightening to see the forums being taken over by self appointed critics of DA2. Ones who wouldn't have a clue as to how to develop a tic tac toe game

And ? so ? your point ?

You mean when i go to restaurant and something taste like a *poop* i can't criticize it because i can't cook ?
Reasonable logic yeah

[schalafi]

xkg wrote...

schalafi wrote...

It's almost frightening to see the forums being taken over by self appointed critics of DA2. Ones who wouldn't have a clue as to how to develop a tic tac toe game

And ? so ? your point ?

You mean when i go to restaurant and something taste like a *poop* i can't criticize it because i can't cook ?
Reasonable logic yeah

If something tastes like "poop", you would be perfectly right in taking your complaint to the management and even asking for your money back, but you wouldn't be allowed to create a scene, ranting and thowing your dishes at the mgmt, or the cook, or the waitress, and then taking out a 2 page article in the local paper  raving about how awful the restaurant's food was, and how no one should ever eat there again. You would probably get sued, and justifyably so.

That's how I feel some of the ranters here are acting, and there really is no excuse for it. They could very simply tell  their gamer friends why they didn't like DA2, and recommend  not buying it.  But to say that because they didn't like one Bioware game, that it was "poop", and  they'll never buy another one, is carrying it too far. It's a good thing that Bioware doesn't sue some of these haters and ranters for libel.

That's my point!

Modifié par schalafi, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:09 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Gunderic wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Gunderic wrote...
(JohnEpler)

And I think that you're misinterpreting the original quote - look at it more like 'we want to draw attention to the aspects of our games that they can relate to and ease them into the ones that they aren't used to', rather than 'we want our games to be pretty much like Call of Duty except, you know, with magic and swords.'

It's the idea that the people who enjoy Call of Duty but have never picked up an RPG might actually enjoy an RPG, they've just never given it a shot. And that's what we want - we want them to look at a game like Dragon Age and say 'you know, that might be something I'd enjoy'.

You just disproved your own statement by quoting this.

Wanting to expand your audience does not equal going after that group alone.

No, no I haven't. They admitted to wanting to appeal to the CoD crowd. And they sure as heck didn't go for the Dragon Age: Origins crowd as their target audience with DA2. So maybe they want to appeal to action-adventure fans too, but not Origins fans. What I quoted only supports my conclusions.

I think too much might be made of the CoD thing. The notion that was put forward seemed to indicate this sort of reasoning:

RPG is pokemon with dice, nerds and epic stories in fantasy settings
CoD is pokemon with guns
Gran Turismo is pokemon with cars

.: there is a much much bigger market of people who could be enjoying, and regularly buying the games, and this warrants experimentation, to see if we can attract those people.


The argument being read into it, though, presupposes that gamers are in limited pidgeonholes WRT what games they can play. That is just rubbish.

Personally I could easily be called an "RPG purist" or "PC elitist" by some people, yet I also play CoD games, I play other shooters, I've spent some my adult life playing in Quake clans/ladders, I have a games console which I enjoy playing games on (although I rarely get the opportunity, the computer is easier). I love the Total War games. I'm as much an id and Valve groupie as I have been a BioWare one. I even recently bought Fable and played it for what it is - a game of dumb fun and no "proper" cRPG in anyone's book - nor does it pretend to be. I'm just not in one of these "CoD player" or "console kiddie" pidgeonholes, any more than I am fearful of or unable to accept change and difference in games (the equal and opposite argument).

For me, the issue with the experiment is that firstly it came mid-franchise and so racked people off by coring the game they had come to love, and secondly there is an issue of how fun and well-realised it actually is for the players.

The first point is self-evident - game changes in sequel for business reasons, people are shocked/annoyed/whatever.

On the second point - well, look at (groan, sorry to mention this, but) The Witcher 2. It has so many of the things that are considered down points for DA2 it isn't even funny - yet the same people love it.

Why?
Well, it's clear that lots of people think it's fun. People see it as well-implemented, they see it as having had effort and attention lavished on it to a point where it feels finished.

I think this is important: They weren't expecting a completely different kind of game to what TW2 is - they weren't expecting a game like DA2 or BG2. It didn't say "MORE DRAGON AGE!" on the box. 

If it had said "MORE DRAGON AGE!" on the box, by the way, it woul[i]dn't be the players' fault if they were annoyed.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:33 .

[John Epler]

Gunderic wrote...

No, no I haven't. They admitted to wanting to appeal to the CoD crowd. And they sure as heck didn't go for the Dragon Age: Origins crowd as their target audience with DA2. So maybe they want to appeal to action-adventure fans too, but not Origins fans. What I quoted only supports my conclusions.

In fact, what the quoted says is that there are aspects of our games as they exist already that might appeal to the 'CoD crowd', as it were. You can certainly draw your own conclusions from what I posted, but as the person who posted it - I can speak to what was meant by it. And what was meant is exactly what I just said.

[Gunderic]

schalafi wrote...

xkg wrote...

schalafi wrote...

It's almost frightening to see the forums being taken over by self appointed critics of DA2. Ones who wouldn't have a clue as to how to develop a tic tac toe game

And ? so ? your point ?

You mean when i go to restaurant and something taste like a *poop* i can't criticize it because i can't cook ?
Reasonable logic yeah

If something tastes like "poop", you would be perfectly right in taking your complaint to the management and even asking for your money back, but you wouldn't be allowed to create a scene, ranting and thowing your dishes at the mgmt, or the cook, or the waitress, and then taking out a 2 page article in the local paper  raving about how awful the restaurant's food was, and how no one should ever eat there again. You would probably get sued, and justifyably so.

That's how I feel some of the ranters here are acting, and there really is no excuse for it. They could very simply tell  their gamer friends why they didn't like DA2, and recommend  not buying it.  But to say that because they didn't like one Bioware game, that it was "poop", and  they'll never buy another one, is carrying it too far. It's a good thing that Bioware doesn't sue some of these haters and ranters for libel.

That's my point!

Well if the restaurant's food did taste like dung, you do, in fact, have the right to rant in the local paper about how awful it was. They did serve you dung, after all. You have every right to tell other people never to go there again.

And ranting on forums is not the equivalent of damaging personal property.

[Cathey]

BW have proven that they listen to us as far as DA goes because whilst I loved DA2, I think Legacy was an improvement.

I have no worries whatsoever about DA3, I actually really look forward to it. I prefer Dragon Age over Mass Effect (though I do love them both).

In fact, BW are the only company I would trust to make DA3. I've been let down too much by other company RPG's recently (besides Bethesda.)

[Maria Caliban]

scyphozoa wrote...

Lots of the devs that work on Dragon Age are the same devs who created Jade Empire. I don't just trust them, I've built them a shrine, complete with hair dolls.

The day scyphozoa snaps, the developers are going to be in a world of hurt.

[Shadowbanner]

FubarCFSnafu wrote...

Now that they have announced DA 3, does anyone trust them if they are using the same team that developed DA 2? I am still waiting for all the promised DLC (other than what was released) and of course the awesome button.

(I know that is getting old, but when you say something like that, feedback is bound to come).

I just feel wary about dropping another 60 dollars for a game that came out the way it did.

Nope. Because Mike Laidlaw is still at the helm, and that cannot be good for the DA IP.

Moreover I will definitely not make the same mistake again and will NOT pre-order DA3.

I'll completely ignore professional -paid- reviewers and judge it by what other gamers write in Metacritic for example. If reception is positive I'll buy it. If it's like the Legacy DLC fiasco I'll pass. This industry is very competitive and if you do not give consumers what we want we move elsewhere. Plenty of good developers around these days. You'll be spoilt for choice.

[Gunderic]

JohnEpler wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

No, no I haven't. They admitted to wanting to appeal to the CoD crowd. And they sure as heck didn't go for the Dragon Age: Origins crowd as their target audience with DA2. So maybe they want to appeal to action-adventure fans too, but not Origins fans. What I quoted only supports my conclusions.

In fact, what the quoted says is that there are aspects of our games as they exist already that might appeal to the 'CoD crowd', as it were. You can certainly draw your own conclusions from what I posted, but as the person who posted it - I can speak to what was meant by it. And what was meant is exactly what I just said.

So if you were already being inclusive of the CoD market in Dragon Age: Origins, why change so many things in DA2? What's up with the comments about expanding your audience?

I don't really see a game like Dragon Age: Origins having much in common with Call of Duty or the Call of Duty market (or DA2, for that matter). YMMV, idk.

Modifié par Gunderic, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:25 .

[Gotholhorakh]

schalafi wrote...
If something tastes like "poop"...
. It's a good thing that Bioware doesn't sue some of these haters and ranters for libel.

Firstly, I'd like to say that once we've sunk to the scatological, so has the quality of the debate. If we could edge away from the poop precipice, I think civil discourse might survive a bit longer.

Secondly, as if the idea of suing people for forum posts where they "rant" about combat animations wasn't silly enough (!!!!!!!!), they'd have to contact the people responsible for publishing the remarks first, so I imagine stage one would be BioWare and/or EA writing themselves a stern letter instructing them to jolly well pull their socks up, or else.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:40 .

[Shadowbanner]

Zanallen wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...

It's not that unreasonable, really.  The reasoning goes like this: They put out a god-awful terrible game.  But, instead of recognizing that they put out a god-awful terrible game, they blamed their fans for not liking the god-awful terrible game.

See, they not only didn't accept that they put out a god-awful terrible game, that sold half as much as their prior game, they had the nerve to blame their fans for not liking their god-awful terrible game.  The same fans that had supported them for the last 15 years.  They actually blamed their fans for "not accepting change".  They blamed the fans!  Can you imagine?

So, it's not just that finally put out a clunker, it's that...
 
1) they don't acknowledge they put out a clunker - they think they put out an awesome game & DA3 should be 85% DA2 & 15% DA:O.  Read the posts about DA2 & the interviews.  They still, to this day, think they actually created a good game in DA2.  They're actually proud of it!

2) and they've apparently kept the same designers for DA III.  Can you imagine?  What real company would do this?  "Sure, you lost us 2.5 million customers & damaged our brand name but, hey, here, go for it on DA III - you derserve it!"  What competent company would turn over the third installment to the same people that lost them half their audience & took them from "the best RPG company bar none" to a laughingstock across the internet?

They still insist on creating the third game with stuff from the second game, & have flat out told us that their keeping the second game stuff with at best a few  bare-bones thrown to fans of the first game.

After providing me with hundreds of hours of incredible entertainment over the last 15 years, Bioware finally turned stupid. Or turned EA.  Same difference, I suppose.

1. Bioware has not been blaming their fans. That is the product of hate-filled vitriol and irate "fans" twisting their words.

2. DA2 is not an objectively bad game. There are plenty of people who enjoyed the game. How can they say they released a "god-awful terrible game" when that isn't the objective truth or even the general consensus?

3. Remember that DA2 was made by the same people who made DA:O.

What about Brent Knowles? Wasn't he the alma mater of DAO? Wasn't he the Lead Designer? Why did he decide, after 10 years working in Bioware, not to work on DA2?

Mike Laidlaw did DAO Awakening, awful expansion btw, as well as the port from PC over to the consoles. And they credited him as "Lead Designer" of DAO??!! Yeah, sure.

[ipgd]

Gunderic wrote...

So if you were already being inclusive of the CoD market in Dragon Age: Origins, why change so many things in DA2? What's up with the comments about expanding your audience?

I don't really see a game like Dragon Age: Origins having much in common with Call of Duty or the Call of Duty market (or DA2, for that matter). YMMV, idk.

The point was that there are many things that RPGs have in common with more mainstream games like the CoD series, and that players of those genres could enjoy RPGs if they were made more immediately accesible instead of entrenched in a set of conventions that assume prior familiarity with the genre as a whole, and as consequence often serve as a barrier to entry for the uninitiated.

[Gunderic]

ipgd wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

So if you were already being inclusive of the CoD market in Dragon Age: Origins, why change so many things in DA2? What's up with the comments about expanding your audience?

I don't really see a game like Dragon Age: Origins having much in common with Call of Duty or the Call of Duty market (or DA2, for that matter). YMMV, idk.

The point was that there are many things that RPGs have in common with more mainstream games like the CoD series

Such as...?

[ipgd]

Shadowbanner wrote...

What about Brent Knowles? Wasn't he the alma mater of DAO? Wasn't he the Lead Designer? Why did he decide, after 10 years working in Bioware, not to work on DA2?

Mike Laidlaw did DAO Awakening, awful expansion btw, as well as the port from PC over to the consoles. And they credited him as "Lead Designer" of DAO??!! Yeah, sure.

Brent Knowles is one guy. As you may or may not know, there are many guys who worked on DAO. Brent Knowles did not single handedly birth DAO through his magical quivering loins.

For the most part, the teams were the same. They did not completely replace the entire staff working on the series.

Modifié par ipgd, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:44 .

[ipgd]

Gunderic wrote...

ipgd wrote...

The point was that there are many things that RPGs have in common with more mainstream games like the CoD series

Such as...?

How about reading the actual posts where these much maligned "CoD crowd" comparisons were made instead of going off a second-hand twisting of words? Cuz they explained this.

[jbrand2002uk]

@Gunderic Ok despite every impulse i have to not agree with you given john epler's very logical and fair reply let me just ask one question :

If you agree with john epler that there's nothing wrong with expanding your audience then what is so badly wrong with the COD crowd as you call them that you at least given your general posts seem to consider even making a few changes that might encourage them to consider a genre of games they normally would touch with a nile long barge pole and act of for lack of a better word treason ?

[Gunderic]

ipgd wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

So if you were already being inclusive of the CoD market in Dragon Age: Origins, why change so many things in DA2? What's up with the comments about expanding your audience?

I don't really see a game like Dragon Age: Origins having much in common with Call of Duty or the Call of Duty market (or DA2, for that matter). YMMV, idk.

The point was that there are many things that RPGs have in common with more mainstream games like the CoD series, and that players of those genres could enjoy RPGs if they were made more immediately accesible instead of entrenched in a set of conventions that assume prior familiarity with the genre as a whole, and as consequence often serve as a barrier to entry for the uninitiated.

So basically, BioWare wants to eliminate those conventions to make their games more accessible to the CoD crowd. So, streamlining...  

[Gunderic]

ipgd wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

ipgd wrote...

The point was that there are many things that RPGs have in common with more mainstream games like the CoD series

Such as...?

How about reading the actual posts where these much maligned "CoD crowd" comparisons were made instead of going off a second-hand twisting of words? Cuz they explained this.

They were all deleted by the devs afaik.