452 réponses à ce sujet

[Gotholhorakh]

Gunderic wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

So if you were already being inclusive of the CoD market in Dragon Age: Origins, why change so many things in DA2? What's up with the comments about expanding your audience?

I don't really see a game like Dragon Age: Origins having much in common with Call of Duty or the Call of Duty market (or DA2, for that matter). YMMV, idk.

The point was that there are many things that RPGs have in common with more mainstream games like the CoD series

Such as...?

A system of achievements and progression that encourage one to play just one bit further, social aspects that enable one to compete with or show off to one's friends,  rewards at random or pseudo-random rewards that can create addiction and compulsion.

In short they all use the bells and whistles of a computer game tied in with some Pavlovian jiggery-pokery to keep you "achieving" and "obtaining" things in the context of the game rather than in real life, which in turn makes you want to buy the next product just as soon as you can.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:51 .

[DarkDragon777]

ipgd wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

So if you were already being inclusive of the CoD market in Dragon Age: Origins, why change so many things in DA2? What's up with the comments about expanding your audience?

I don't really see a game like Dragon Age: Origins having much in common with Call of Duty or the Call of Duty market (or DA2, for that matter). YMMV, idk.

The point was that there are many things that RPGs have in common with more mainstream games like the CoD series, and that players of those genres could enjoy RPGs if they were made more immediately accesible instead of entrenched in a set of conventions that assume prior familiarity with the genre as a whole, and as consequence often serve as a barrier to entry for the uninitiated.

The way they changed Dragon Age 2 served as a barrier to most of their original fans, which isn't a good thing since they make up the majority of their sales. As evidenced by Dragon Age 2's poor sales, many players of CoD and other mainstream games have little interest in RPG's as a genre, which is why Bioware should use more conventional RPG mechanics to please tha majority of their market. As well as this, Dragon Age 2 is poorly presented as an RPG. To tell you the truth, I've seen CoD players who hate Dragon Age 2 and, above all things, felt combat was ridculous, but that's the least of Bioware's worries.

[ipgd]

Gunderic wrote...

So basically, BioWare wants to eliminate those conventions to make their games more accessible to the CoD crowd. So, streamlining...  

No, Bioware wants to make these conventions more immediately accessible instead of introducing levels of complexity that assume prior familiarity. And also remove superfluous elements that only really appeal to masochists and lovers of tedium, which is apparently evil, but ok.

[Gunderic]

ipgd wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

So basically, BioWare wants to eliminate those conventions to make their games more accessible to the CoD crowd. So, streamlining...  

No, Bioware wants to make these conventions more immediately accessible instead of introducing levels of complexity that assume prior familiarity.

That would be referred to as 'streamlining', yes.

[ipgd]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

The way they changed Dragon Age 2 served as a barrier to most of their original fans, which isn't a good thing since they make up the majority of their sales. As evidenced by Dragon Age 2's poor sales, many players of CoD and other mainstream games have little interest in RPG's as a genre, which is why Bioware should use more conventional RPG mechanics to please tha majority of their market. As well as this, Dragon Age 2 is poorly presented as an RPG. To tell you the truth, I've seen CoD players who hate Dragon Age 2 and, above all things, felt combat was ridculous, but that's the least of Bioware's worries.

i'm not saying it worked perfectly. I'm saying that their goal was to get more people interested in RPGs, not completely remove all RPG elements as the doomsayers have prognosticated.

Gunderic wrote...

That would be referred to as 'streamlining', yes.

No, that's compensating for a learning curve that basically ignores the possibility of people being unfamiliar with RPG conventions. The second part of my post had to do with "streamlining", in that I was insinuating I do not agree that "streamlining" is some sort of evil devil concept synonymous with "anything I don't like". Some RPG institutions are just garbage, and however much people apparently believe tradition is the only justification needed to include a feature, they were not actually trying to destroy the industry by doing things differently.

And, really, can we stop making words mean absolutely nothing by using them in irrelevant negative contexts until they become nonsense buzzwords that accomplish nothing but conveying anger.

Modifié par ipgd, 06 septembre 2011 - 06:03 .

[jbrand2002uk]

@Gunderic while a have a strange admiration for you sticking to you pre-determined view like a pitpull on a pantlegg, I cant help but wonder if you view the "COD crowd" to be akin to satan worshippers or the plague ? feel free to correct me but thats the general impression you seem to be giving off now if you dont mind i'm going to lay down in a dark room somewhere all this negativity for the sake of negativity is making me giddy

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

[/quote]"The point was that there are many things that RPGs have in common with more mainstream games like the CoD series"[/quote]

Little golden medals are now a bridge that can give a game RPG stamp? Wat?

There are no things that RPG's have in common with mainstream games, *especially* with something like CoD. RPG's are for nerds. RPG's are slow-paced, intelligent games, which require person to listen, plan and calculate. Also, to use their brain and senses to imerge into the game more than reflexes. RPG's are somewhat 50/50 on creativity and strategy. Fuk, RPGs and FPS are genres diffirent on absolute level when it comes to mastering the game, too. RPGs require, pure and simple, *knowledge* of the game to master it, while FPS relies on physical training to master it completely (well, almost).
You ever noticed some people, who like RPG's, and the second icon on their desktop is usually some Sim-something icon, or maybe Heroes of Might and Magic, or Civilization, maybe and adventure game? I have two cousins, one older, one younger. They grew almost in front of my eyes, the older is egoistic, self-centered, sporty, nothing-to-talk-about, always tried to have everything for himself, and energy-packed, like a human battery. The yonger is calm, intelligent, crafty, loved creating stuff, instead of raming toy car into other kid's faces he always brought up some interest stories about his toys, how they interact with each other. Guess who is Counter Strike and GTA fan, and who played Heroes of Might and Magic coop with me last summer?

Of course I can enjoy a decent shooter now and then. I am actually not that bad at shooting people. What makes the diffirence is what I am going to replay when there is nothing new to have fun with. My friend will replay Unreal for 500 time. I'll go and build a new party in Wizardry. And funny thing, me and my friend, both think that DA2 sucked.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 06 septembre 2011 - 06:15 .

[Gotholhorakh]

ipgd wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

That would be referred to as 'streamlining', yes.

No, that's compensating for a learning curve that basically ignores the possibility of people being unfamiliar...

OK seriously, be fair now - how is that not streamlining?

I'm not trying to be awful, your wider point is a different one, but that just... is streamlining, isn't it?

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...
You ever noticed some people,
who like RPG's, and the second icon on their desktop is usually some
Sim-something icon, or maybe Heroes of Might and Magic, or Civilization,
maybe and adventure game? I have two cousins, one older, one younger.
They grew almost in front of my eyes, the older is egoistic,
self-centered, sporty, nothing-to-talk-about, always tried to have
everything for himself, and energy-packed, like a human battery. The
yonger is calm, intelligent, crafty, loved creating stuff, instead of
raming toy car into other kid's faces he always brought up some interest
stories about his toys, how they interact with each other. Guess who is
Counter Strike and GTA fan, and who played Heroes of Might and Magic
coop with me last summer?

No, I haven't noticed this, and I don't think the divide really exists because the two kinds of games aren't mutually exclusive. I enjoy both (indeed I was obsessed with both when I was younger), and a number of people I have known, enjoy both to a greater or lesser extent if they like games at all.

My daughter used to think, when she was a toddler, that only one person could have the same favourite colour at once. She used to get very upset if other people liked pink. If she asked other little boys and girls what their favourite colour was, I used to quietly hope it wasn't pink. Now she is not a toddler and knows better.

The RPG/FPS divide is a similar kind of myth, and I would invite people to grow out of it soon kthx.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 06 septembre 2011 - 06:25 .

[ipgd]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

OK seriously, be fair now - how is that not streamlining?

I'm not trying to be awful, your wider point is a different one, but that just... is streamlining, isn't it?

Considering the definition of the word "streamlining" as used here is now, again, "anything I don't like", I don't see the relevance of discussing this. It is a thing. Whether it falls under some arbitrarily assigned label with negative associations doesn't matter, because I am discussing the things they are actually doing, not how much unwarranted negative connotation a word can be imbued with until it means effectively nothing at all.

The only reason we would have to go on one of these ridiculous semantic tangents is if I didn't want my ideas associated with a perceived negative term, where you would insist my ideas should be as if that is supposed to decredit them -- and since I am actually aware these ****fests have nothing to do with the actual definitions of the actual words I have no actual desire to entrench myself in this kind of pointless rhetorical morass.

[Gunderic]

ipgd wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

OK seriously, be fair now - how is that not streamlining?

I'm not trying to be awful, your wider point is a different one, but that just... is streamlining, isn't it?

Considering the definition of the word "streamlining" as used here is now, again, "anything I don't like", I don't see the relevance of discussing this. It is a thing. Whether it falls under some arbitrarily assigned label with negative associations doesn't matter, because I am discussing the things they are actually doing, not how much unwarranted negative connotation a word can be imbued with until it means effectively nothing at all.

The only reason we would have to go on one of these ridiculous semantic tangents is if I didn't want my ideas associated with a perceived negative term, where you would insist my ideas should be as if that is supposed to decredit them -- and since I am actually aware these ****fests have nothing to do with the actual definitions of the actual words I have no actual desire to entrench myself in this kind of pointless rhetorical morass.

streamline - to alter in order to make more efficient or simple.

seems about right.

[ipgd]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Little golden medals are now a bridge that can give a game RPG stamp? Wat?

There are no things that RPG's have in common with mainstream games, *especially* with something like CoD. RPG's are for nerds. RPG's are slow-paced, intelligent games, which require person to listen, plan and calculate. Also, to use their brain and senses to imerge into the game more than reflexes. RPG's are somewhat 50/50 on creativity and strategy. Fuk, RPGs and FPS are genres diffirent on absolute level when it comes to mastering the game, too. RPGs require, pure and simple, *knowledge* of the game to master it, while FPS relies on physical training to master it completely (well, almost).
You ever noticed some people, who like RPG's, and the second icon on their desktop is usually some Sim-something icon, or maybe Heroes of Might and Magic, or Civilization, maybe and adventure game? I have two cousins, one older, one younger. They grew almost in front of my eyes, the older is egoistic, self-centered, sporty, nothing-to-talk-about, always tried to have everything for himself, and energy-packed, like a human battery. The yonger is calm, intelligent, crafty, loved creating stuff, instead of raming toy car into other kid's faces he always brought up some interest stories about his toys, how they interact with each other. Guess who is Counter Strike and GTA fan, and who played Heroes of Might and Magic coop with me last summer?

Of course I can enjoy a decent shooter now and then. I am actually not that bad at shooting people. What makes the diffirence is what I am going to replay when there is nothing new to have fun with. My friend will replay Unreal for 500 time. I'll go and build a new party in Wizardry. And funny thing, me and my friend, both think that DA2 sucked.

Really, let's not start with the whole "people who like RPGs (me) are smart and awesome and people who like FPS are stupid jocks!!!!" thing. Not only are we not in middle school anymore, it's also not actually true.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

"The RPG/FPS divide is a similar kind of myth"
Something as simple as avatar-does-things/I-do-things a myth now? What was the first RPG you played?

"Really, let's not start with the whole "people who like RPGs (me) are smart and awesome"
Jesus Christ, that't one great avatar to go along with riping words out of context.

[asminho]

yep

[Gotholhorakh]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

"The RPG/FPS divide is a similar kind of myth"
Something as simple as avatar-does-things/I-do-things a myth now?

I was referring to the supposed divide between players of those games, not to differences between the genres themselves - as I made abundantly clear in the missing parts of that quote.

What was the first RPG you played?

AD&D, although I have no idea why it's relevant.

"Really, let's not start with the whole "people who like RPGs (me) are smart and awesome"
Jesus Christ, that't one great avatar to go along with riping words out of context.

Irony \\  /

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 06 septembre 2011 - 06:49 .

[ipgd]

Gunderic wrote...

streamline - to alter in order to make more efficient or simple.

seems about right.

And now you are completely ignoring the words I said and replying just to irritate me. I am so glad we have can these substantial debates about the contents of our arguments instead of skirting around the edges to make irrelevant semantic squibbles that have absolutely nothing to do with the actual validity or lack thereof of our core issues.

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

"Really, let's not start with the whole "people who like RPGs (me) are smart and awesome"
Jesus Christ, that't one great avatar to go along with riping words out of context.

What? Do you have a problem with ironic drag queens or something?

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

"What? Do you have a problem with ironic drug queens or something?"
Fixed for you
Also, my eyes hurt

"I was referring to the supposed divide between players of those games"
People are not tastless. So are games. If divide did't exist, than RPG's would't sell that bad.

[Gotholhorakh]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...
If divide did't exist, than RPG's would't sell that bad.

That's not logical, is it? The same bad assumption is made again, that if there are two genres, different people must buy them.

Fewer people take cream than coffee from the canteen, .: people drink either cream or coffee, .: There is a cream/coffee divide.

They can shift different amounts of units without being mutually exclusive... obviously.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 06 septembre 2011 - 07:07 .

[ipgd]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

"What? Do you have a problem with ironic drug queens or something?"
Fixed for you
Also, my eyes hurt

That wasn't the worst joke I've ever heard, but it was pretty bad. 2/10, I guess. Don't think it would even chart the sick burn scale, though.

Still have no idea what this has to do with my actual posts.

Modifié par ipgd, 06 septembre 2011 - 07:10 .

[AtreiyaN7]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

"What? Do you have a problem with ironic drug queens or something?"
Fixed for you
Also, my eyes hurt

"I was referring to the supposed divide between players of those games"
People are not tastless. So are games. If divide did't exist, than RPG's would't sell that bad.

Your typos are making my eyes hurt.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Gotholhorakh, but say you want coffee, and get a coffee mixed with cream. There is still coffee there, but that's not what you wanted, right?

[FieryDove]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Gotholhorakh, but say you want coffee, and get a coffee mixed with cream. There is still coffee there, but that's not what you wanted, right?

What a horrible thing to happen. Coffee ruined by cream!

<Coffee fanatic

If that happened to me I would walk right back in the store and get my money back.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

FieryDove , well sorry, coffee must evolve to avoid stagnation, so we put cream in it. If you have problems with that, that means you can't handle changes and everything :3

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 06 septembre 2011 - 07:42 .

[Cutlass Jack]

What kind of confused metaphors are you people using in here? Coffee with cream...is called 'Coffee they forgot to put the sugar into.'

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Ah, sugar. We have dismissed th-...

[FieryDove]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

FieryDove , well sorry, coffee must evolve to avoid stagnation, so we put cream in it. If you have problems with that, that means you can't handle changes and everything :3

Fine. I can't handle that change. I'll grow my own then!

Coffee and tea has remained popular because they are unchanging. (For the most part)
People like what they like. No PR/Marketing campaign will make it otherwise. (New Coke)