452 réponses à ce sujet

[dsl08002]

I just remember something, i asked a friend of mine why he even bought DA2 if he thought it was bad: he just simply replied: "Because its the next game that is the only reason i bought it"

And I agree with him, i also bought the game because it was the second one and that it was going to build up the story in DA3, otherwise i wouldn´t have bought it, becaus i was hoping that you would be able to continue as the warden in DA3.

I just dont like leaving loose ties and i felt i was doing so after I played DA ultimate edidtion from DAO,DAA and all DLC where you can import your Hero of ferelden character.

And then you meet Leliana in the Exile prince dlc where (romanced) she gets a sad look when she talk about the hero of ferelden, I wondered what happend between her and my character?

[Imrahil_]

Davasar wrote...

Imrahil.

The problem is:

They don't want us as customers anymore.

They want the CoD crowd. They said it. That's it.

They will NOT be making games for fans like us anymore.

It was a fun ride, but it's over.

Sorry bro.

Fair enough, and probably correct.  In that case, all I can do is voice my displeasure on the forums & not buy their games.  Viva la displeasure!

Modifié par Imrahil_, 03 septembre 2011 - 08:29 .

[Davasar]

Agreed.

We can certainly lament what could have been great, but has rather degraded into something we do not desire.

Modifié par Davasar, 03 septembre 2011 - 08:36 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Anomaly- wrote...

I can see where they tried to improve some things, yes. For example, the combat pacing. Granted, they took it too far, but I can at least see what they were trying to address there. The drastic changes in art design, customization, dialogue style and meaningful choices came out of left field. I can't remember many complaints about these things when Origins came out, nor can I remember the pleas for help of people terrified by the inaccessibility of Origins, as many interviews suggest.

I don't think they are that drastically different. I personally like the new combat pacing a lot, though you may not. I find it flows better and makes the fights seem more interesting. I thought that DAO combat tended to drag on, and was badly paced - every fight was front-loaded in difficulty (the first 25% of any fight where I am finding and killing the high importance targets like mages was much more exciting than the trailing 75% where all I do is cleanup), and I didn't like that.

I didn't think the issues were out of left field. Origins didn't really have any unified art direction. In that regard, practically everything was just haphazard and "generic fantasy". This is one thing I like much more about DA2. Wardens now have a uniform. Templars have uniforms. Guardsmen have uniforms. Kirkwall has architecture. Things are visually coherent. Not everything is perfect; the commoner people are copies of each other, and the generic people tend to look pretty ugly (likely a cost-saving measure for better console performance), and they had to reuse a lot of environments simply because they didn't have the time to make more. But that's not really art direction, so much as execution.

But beyond all that, there were loads upon loads of complaints about DAO's Fade and Deep Roads sections - long dungeon crawling segments that were not well paced in terms of story advancement. The mod for "Skip the fade" in DAO has hundreds of thousands of downloads. If you look at DA2, the experience is much smoother overall. The skill system in DAO was lackluster too. You spent your first 12 levels or so getting Coercion, and then you might pick up Herbalism for the quest in Orzammar. The gift system in Origins was awful - your companion could be a hair's breadth from stabbing you, but give him or her enough soup bones and he or she would be your best friend.

There are those who loved the Fade, the Deep Roads, the gifts, and the skill system though, for a variety of reasons. It isn't necessarily that they're wrong, but the designers decided that such things weren't really that fun for whatever reason, so those aspects of the game were changed.

This is a little subjectice, as I would disagree that they were successful with talent trees and upgrades, and combat pacing. Entirely agree with your unsuccessful examples.

It's very subjective, which is why I prefaced my comment with "I think". Some people want a more sandbox fantasy RPG game, and others want a more cinematic, character-driven RPG game. DAO did some of both, but it is pretty clear that Bioware is orienting more toward the latter. Not everyone is pleased by this (particularly those who want more of the former).

I think both played a part, and I think it's pretty hard to distinguish where one ends and the other begins. For example, one might argue that the design changes might have been much better if they'd had more time to polish things. On the other hand, someone might wonder why they would decide to undertake such drastic changes if they had so little time to do so (not to mention the fact that what they had was very successful).

I disagree about it being hard to tell where design decision ends and lack of polish begins. I look at Legacy as a good example of that. Legacy embodies all of the design principles of DA2. Cinematic emphasis, character-driven storyline, branching plot that converges near the end, faster paced combat, etc. Many of the detractors of DA2 have even stated that Legacy is probably the best DLC Bioware's ever put out - and it is, because they actually had sufficient time to polish it.

If I honestly had to guess, I'd say that DA2's development was probably a casualty of TOR.

Yes, but I think if you look past that, all this thread really hopes to accomplish is to get an idea of how divided the community is in regards to future installments. That, at least, is marginally interesting and useful.

These forums (like practically any forum group on the internet) represent only the most hard core fans out there. The numbers really aren't representative. Don't get me wrong - it's still useful feedback. What a lot of people don't understand is that the forum is only one avenue of gathering feedback. They also have focus groups, kleenex playtesters, telemetry data, surveys, reviews, etc. to interpret. It's useful to be sure, but I think that many overvalue the importance of the forums.

I wrote my own review of the game shortly after it came out, with about as much detail as I could manage. I've linked it in my signature, and in the constructive criticism and da2 review threads. There's not much else I can do on that front. The only reasons I got involved in this thread were because 1) I get annoyed when I see people cover their eyes and plug their ears to the flaws of DA2, and get annoyed when people repeat the same factual information to them, and 2) because I was annoyed that someone else continued to be misquoted.

He's claiming to be misquoted, but it's pretty clear from his word choice and his statements that he wants some sort of mea culpa from Bioware because of DA2, but he's not going to get it. Despite thinking that Origins is an overall superior product, I still like DA2. I like many things about DA2 more than I liked Origins. I think that if they had the time to polish DA2 like they had for Origins, I would like DA2 more than Origins by a good margin.

I don't think many of the supporters of DA2 think that it's flawless. I haven't seen anyone say that DA2 is flawless. But by the same token, those die-hard DAO fans aren't exactly falling all over themselves to acknowledge the flaws there either. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. When you take the discussion from the game to the company, you make that jump from relevance to irrelevance, be you a supporter or detractor.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 03 septembre 2011 - 08:46 .

[Davasar]

Davasar wrote...

Imrahil.

The problem is:

They don't want us as customers anymore.

They want the CoD crowd. They said it. That's it.

They will NOT be making games for fans like us anymore.

It was a fun ride, but it's over.

Sorry bro.

By the way,

I've said this several times on these forums, and no one, I repeat NO ONE from the community or Bioware has ever said I was wrong.

[Imrahil_]

i was hoping that you would be able to continue as the warden in DA3.

To be honest, this could never happen.  They messed up by making the Warden too powerful in DA:O, or at least, by the end of DA:O, not to mention Awakening.  Back in the days of Baldur's Gate, in BG1, you only got to like 7th or 8th level, then to maybe 10th with BG: Tales of the Sword Coast.  In BG2, at the end of the game, you could get up to maybe 20+, which was ridiculously powerful, casting all the best spells & having legendary weapons.  In BG: Throne of Bhaal, you felt godlike, with all abilities possible available.

That was 3 games.  They made the mistake of letting the Warden get to Throne of Bhaal levels in the first game.  In Awakening, it's nearly impossile to die, or even feel threatened.  They made the mistake of giving us godlike abilities in the very first installment, which is fun, no doubt, but means there's nowhere to go.

I'd have been happy with a new Warden, starting from scratch.  That'd be OK, but to be honest, our DA:O Warden was too godlike at the end to be the main character in DA2.  Can you imagine the Arishok?  Dirty Fighting-Twin Strikes-Low Blow-Flurry-Cripple-Stealth-Deep Striking-UNENDING FURY...pwned.

[Imrahil_]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
He's claiming to be misquoted, but it's pretty clear from his word choice and his statements that he wants some sort of mea culpa from Bioware because of DA2, but he's not going to get it.

Me?  I'm, like, right here.  My ears are burning.  If you want to quote me, feel free.  Let me know where I wanted a mea culpa from Bioware because of DA2.  You can clearly see under my avatar that I didn't even buy the thing.  I'm not sure why I'd want an apology for something I didn't buy.

[hoorayforicecream]

Davasar wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Imrahil.

The problem is:

They don't want us as customers anymore.

They want the CoD crowd. They said it. That's it.

They will NOT be making games for fans like us anymore.

It was a fun ride, but it's over.

Sorry bro.

By the way,

I've said this several times on these forums, and no one, I repeat NO ONE from the community or Bioware has ever said I was wrong.

Mike Laidlaw said...

I would love to do so, but there are two issues preventing it becoming an immediate reality:

1)
I don't like to post what will or will not happen until the decision is
made internally. For instance, follower armors is a discussion that
we're having right now. Which is good. But it's a discussion, not a
decision, and as such, I don't feel comfortable sharing the discussion.
Hopes rise, hopes are dashed, bad feelings all around.

2) I
believe, especially on these boards, that a few months ago was not a
time for productive discussion, particularly. The accusations were
flying thick, and the suppositions being made were wildly off base. Now,
Legacy, I think, goes a long way towards demonstrating that we are
listening, that we are aware of the weaknesses of DAII, and that we will
continue to address them, and so the atmosphere changes a little. Pause
is given as people wonder if, just maybe, Legacy is a hint that Dragon
Age is not trying to be Call of Duty, or Devil May Cry or whatever other
franchise people have prognosticated in dire tones and with furious
shaking of head will be the future of DA. And that's a great
development; and one that I think required us to both put up and shut
up. Saying we were listening would always be less effective than
releasing something that demonstrates it.

That said, I think we
can cross off #2 as a concern, leaving us with #1 to address. That's a
strictly internal process, but I'm committed to letting you folks know
what's coming ahead of time with the next major DA release. It'll be a
bit before we get there, but once we are, I'll likely use the bio blog
to talk about things that are different and why they are, similar to how
I outlined the follower armor decision for DAII on the podcast.

Source

[Tirfan]

Yeah, meh, don't really care anymore, all I hope for is a good conclusion for Warden&Morrigan thing and that DA3 will be somewhat playable instead of being nearly unplayable like DA2. This probably means that I really don't trust BW.

Call me an optimist.

[Reno_Tarshil]

I need my teddy bear, everyone is being mean to each other :'(

[dsl08002]

I know it could probably never happen that the warden returns as a new protaganist

but bioware is known to create advanced games and is it not better to create a game a Game like DA3 as DAO where you choose your background as either new protaganist, hawke or the warden.

That would be a very good compromise because then you can make all fans happy,

It is an amibtious task and bioware can if they put their mind to it, create a advanced game

I have seen this question come up a lot of times if bioware can make the compromise of having new protaganist, hawke or the warden as the main character that you can choose between them.

[hoorayforicecream]

Imrahil_ wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
He's claiming to be misquoted, but it's pretty clear from his word choice and his statements that he wants some sort of mea culpa from Bioware because of DA2, but he's not going to get it.

Me?  I'm, like, right here.  My ears are burning.  If you want to quote me, feel free.  Let me know where I wanted a mea culpa from Bioware because of DA2.  You can clearly see under my avatar that I didn't even buy the thing.  I'm not sure why I'd want an apology for something I didn't buy.

Imrahil_ wrote...

It's not that unreasonable, really.  The
reasoning goes like this: They put out a god-awful terrible game.  But,
instead of recognizing that they put out a god-awful terrible game,
they blamed their fans for not liking the god-awful terrible game.

See,
they not only didn't accept that they put out a god-awful terrible
game, that sold half as much as their prior game, they had the nerve to
blame their fans for not liking their god-awful terrible game.  The same
fans that had supported them for the last 15 years.  They actually
blamed their fans for "not accepting change".  They blamed the fans! 
Can you imagine?

So, it's not just that finally put out a clunker, it's that...
 
1)
they don't acknowledge they put out a clunker - they think they put out
an awesome game & DA3 should be 85% DA2 & 15% DA:O.  Read the
posts about DA2 & the interviews.  They still, to this day, think
they actually created a good game in DA2.  They're actually proud of it!

Sure seems like you believe they should acknowledge this. This would mean that you believe they should give, by definition, a mea culpa.

[Imrahil_]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...
1)
they don't acknowledge they put out a clunker - they think they put out
an awesome game & DA3 should be 85% DA2 & 15% DA:O.  Read the
posts about DA2 & the interviews.  They still, to this day, think
they actually created a good game in DA2.  They're actually proud of it!

Sure seems like you believe they should acknowledge this. This would mean that you believe they should give, by definition, a mea culpa.

I suppose so.  Fair enough.  Those bastards!  Hooray for ice cream?

Modifié par Imrahil_, 03 septembre 2011 - 09:05 .

[Reno_Tarshil]

Depends Is it chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream?

[Imrahil_]

I can't say.  I think I just got wtfpwned by hoorayforicecream, so I can only support whatever hoorayforicecream says.  For the next 10 minutes at least.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 03 septembre 2011 - 09:12 .

[Reno_Tarshil]

This saddens me, I'm going to go complain about it on my live journal.

Modifié par Reno_Tarshil, 03 septembre 2011 - 09:15 .

[Stoomkal]

No, sadly I do not.

If they hadn't spent the last two years proving they actually *hate* the idea of the warden, and they don't *want* to talk about the old god baby... then maybe.

I think it is okay to change your mind - they never actually wanted DA:O to be continued. It was self contained.

The "secret life of the warden" got away with them...

Now that I understand that they are really wanting to tell a different story, I am moving on.

DA2 was not the mistake... DA:O was.

My mistake.

[PinkShoes]

Yes and no.

They made DAO a great game they made DA2 a medicore game, there were parts in DA2 which were parts in DA2 that were good and in DAO there was parts which were bad.

We know they are listening to us so i trust that they are listening to us and i hope that they do change things but do not want a DAO2, i just want a good game with parts of DAO and parts of DA2.

I want DAO and DA2 to have a baby.

[Sabariel]

I'm not really sure. When I hear "the best of both worlds" I can't keep the image of "DAO + DA2 = deformed Cabbage Patch baby" out of my brain...

Modifié par Sabariel, 03 septembre 2011 - 11:47 .

[Giubba]

Sure they never let me down.

[Indoctrination]

I certainly don't trust them as much as I used to. The thing that weakens my confidence in them the most is their insulting damage control.

Every time I have to read an article where someone like Mr. Laidlaw says something like the solution to choices not mattering is to cut decisions, I lose confidence in them. Every time I have to read a comment about how they don't want to make complete games anymore because it's too expensive, I lose confidence in them.

Yes, oh grand budgeting wizards, making a great game requires extra time and extra money. If you cut corners, and try to penny-pinch while developing, you'll always get what you paid for. A commercial failure (and yes, I believe we've all seen the DA1-DA2 10 week sales charts). So the next time someone in budgeting decides that a BioWare game should be downgraded to require a year less of work than it actually needs, please remind yourselves why DA2 had to drop to $29.99 at retail so quickly.

I know this sounds a little hostile, but that's because I'm so frustrated at how much potential was wasted with DA2.

[alex90c]

DA2 wasn't actually a commercial failure at all. It was made at about 1/5 the cost of Origins and did pretty decent profit-wise. That's not to say I think it's a good game, just that it did quite decently in regards to Bioware making money from it.

[Indoctrination]

alex90c wrote...

DA2 wasn't actually a commercial failure at all. It was made at about 1/5 the cost of Origins and did pretty decent profit-wise. That's not to say I think it's a good game, just that it did quite decently in regards to Bioware making money from it.

When a game drops from full retail price to $29.99 in less than half a year after release, that's pretty much a white flag from the publisher that they're desperate to unload inventory of the game no one wants. Just saying.

[TorulfAmell]

Hell yes. DAO was a masterpiece and DA2 was a flawed yet fantastic game.

[Brockololly]

Do I trust BioWare to make DA3 a game I'll enjoy?

No, not really at this point. Which is a damn shame. I just don't have much faith in the people with ultimate control making the big decisions on the franchise. After DA2 I don't know that I even agree with where they want to take the franchise (or for that matter, I have no clue where they want to go since with DA2 what they claimed via words didn't match the final product), but even more importantly, I don't know that they have the wherewithal to even execute their ideas into a competent game.

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 septembre 2011 - 12:22 .